NYC subway passenger dies after another puts him in a headlock

[mariomike]

3...2...1...and chaos.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I wish these people would go to school and become advocates working in mental health and social work.

Yes some of them probably are- but we could use more.

Now that's just crazy talk. They're only committed enough to disturb the peace further over the incident, actually helping to fix it is way more time and effort than these people can afford to give.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Surprised nobody has been fried by the third rail yet.

 

[KevinB]

Surprised nobody has been fried by the third rail yet.

I suspect they shut that down ASAP.
Pity

 

[mariomike]

I suspect they shut that down ASAP.
Pity

If it's anything like the TTC, there's a blue light at either end of the platform with an emergency power cut button the customers can push themselves.

 

[Blackadder1916]

If it's anything like the TTC, there's a blue light at either end of the platform with an emergency power cut button the customers can push themselves.

From a 2009 article discussing emergency power cut-off in NY subway.

Subway Platform's "Little-Known Switch" Could Have Saved Man

Courtesy lachance. [UPDATE BELOW] The MTA is looking into a horrible

gothamist.com

UPDATE: MTA spokesperson Charles Seaton writes, "These switches are located in areas that are NOT accessible to subway customers. They are not on the station platform." And they're not accessible to the token booth clerk, either. Seaton declined to elaborate on their exact location, for obvious reasons.

But it is the NY subway, they have their own view on how the world works. In the words of George Carlin:

“. . . In New York, most people don't have cars, so if you want to kill a person, you have to take the subway to their house. And sometimes on the way, the train is delayed and you get impatient, so you have to kill someone on the subway. That's why there are so many subway murders; no one has a car.”

 

[daftandbarmy]

More video footage...

BREAKING: Full footage reveals ex-Marine Daniel Penny putting Jordan Neely in 'recovery position', passengers complimenting him​

Full footage that emerged on social media this Sunday revealed that marine corps veteran Daniel Penny had placed Jordan Neely in a "recovery position" after subduing him on the New York City subway earlier this week.

Jordan Neely, a 30-year-old violent homeless man and repeat offender with over 40 prior arrests, died on Monday after Penny, 24, had placed him into a chokehold on the F train. Neely had reportedly started behaving erratically and showing aggression towards other passengers.

BREAKING: Full footage reveals former Marine Daniel Penny putting Jordan Neely in ‘recovery position’, passengers complimenting him

The veteran Marine was taken into custody following the altercation, but was released.

thepostmillennial.com

 

[SupersonicMax]

More video footage...

BREAKING: Full footage reveals ex-Marine Daniel Penny putting Jordan Neely in 'recovery position', passengers complimenting him​

Full footage that emerged on social media this Sunday revealed that marine corps veteran Daniel Penny had placed Jordan Neely in a "recovery position" after subduing him on the New York City subway earlier this week.

Jordan Neely, a 30-year-old violent homeless man and repeat offender with over 40 prior arrests, died on Monday after Penny, 24, had placed him into a chokehold on the F train. Neely had reportedly started behaving erratically and showing aggression towards other passengers.

BREAKING: Full footage reveals former Marine Daniel Penny putting Jordan Neely in ‘recovery position’, passengers complimenting him

The veteran Marine was taken into custody following the altercation, but was released.

thepostmillennial.com

If I shoot someone in the head but put them in the recovery position after, that’s okay too?

 

[Eaglelord17]

If I shoot someone in the head but put them in the recovery position after, that’s okay too?

Its better than not putting them in the recovery position…

It can potentially show he had no intention of killing him, only subduing him. Potentially the difference between murder and manslaughter.

 

[KevinB]

Its better than not putting them in the recovery position…

It can potentially show he had no intention of killing him, only subduing him. Potentially the difference between murder and manslaughter.

However no attempt to check his vitals, check airway etc.
Neely is clearly non responsive at that point.

The other aspect is the second person is doing most of the recovery position work.

The Post Millennial article that @daftandbarmy linked above takes a very different outlook than other articles in how it refers to Neely.

Jordan Neely, a 30-year-old violent homeless man and repeat offender with over 40 prior arrests, died on Monday after Penny, 24, had placed him into a chokehold on the F train. Neely had reportedly started behaving erratically and showing aggression towards other passengers.

 

[mariomike]

Some may see it as a Marine stepping up. Depends how the Manhattan Grand Jury sees it.

Even the pros who transport EDPs to hospitals for a living get it wrong sometimes.

Some still rely on the old-fashioned "back-board sandwich". Has various nicknames depending on jurisdiction.

"The paramedic said 'no, we're going to put it ( the second backboard ) on top of him so you guys ( the police ) can sit on him,' the officer said.

You know that didn't end well.

"He was pretty much fighting the whole time," the paramedic said to investigators. "I mean, it took a little bit of force to try to keep him down on the board on top of him. And continued to keep yelling. And then at some point, he became unresponsive."

Coroner ruled it a homicide by compression asphyxia.

Attorneys for the family say he died because police and paramedics kept him in the prone position for more than 16 minutes and for more than one minute, an officer sat on his back on top of the backboard on the stretcher.

 

[KevinB]

Some may see it as a Marine stepping up. Depends how the Manhattan Grand Jury sees it.

Even the pros who transport EDPs to hospitals for a living get it wrong sometimes.

Some still rely on the old-fashioned "back-board sandwich". Has various nicknames depending on jurisdiction.



You know that didn't end well.



Coroner ruled it a homicide by compression asphyxia.

Attorneys for the family say he died because police and paramedics kept him in the prone position for more than 16 minutes and for more than one minute, an officer sat on his back on top of the backboard on the stretcher.

Dealing with EDP's is always a tough subject.
One Psychiatric Doctor down here was recently discussing a subdue and sedate method -- but I have (and I suspect many entities will as well) issues with how to handle the sedate side.
Are LEO's or Paramedics supposed to just carry around narcotics to sedate potential EDP's, not to mention the health issues that can arise from administering sedatives to people like that under less than ideal conditions with unknown potential conflicts and interactions.

 

[Eaglelord17]

However no attempt to check his vitals, check airway etc.
Neely is clearly non responsive at that point.

The other aspect is the second person is doing most of the recovery position work.

The Post Millennial article that @daftandbarmy linked above takes a very different outlook than other articles in how it refers to Neely.

Jordan Neely, a 30-year-old violent homeless man and repeat offender with over 40 prior arrests, died on Monday after Penny, 24, had placed him into a chokehold on the F train. Neely had reportedly started behaving erratically and showing aggression towards other passengers.

True enough, that being said how aware/trained is he in medical care? Just listing some potential arguments his lawyers might make.

Personally I think incidents like this are going to become more common as people are getting fed up. Your average citizen is getting tired of constantly receiving abuse and nothing being done to correct it.

Haiti’s citizenry has started lynching the drug gangs. The Philippines did it 7 years ago (with a substantial drop in crime over the next few years). Not saying it is right, just that if people get pushed far enough eventually they will correct it, usually that involves violence to make it happen. Somewhat gives a impetus to our governments to sort it out.

 

[KevinB]

True enough, that being said how aware/trained is he in medical care? Just listing some potential arguments his lawyers might make.

Well I suspect that being a former Marine, he would have undergone at least some sort of BLS.
It could also be argued by an aggressive DA, that he was just trying to hide his crime.

I was not there, but I still don't see any reasonable justification for the choke in the first place.

Personally I think incidents like this are going to become more common as people are getting fed up. Your average citizen is getting tired of constantly receiving abuse and nothing being done to correct it.

Beating up something with Mental Health issues doesn't solve any issues at all, and just makes more.

Haiti’s citizenry has started lynching the drug gangs. The Philippines did it 7 years ago (with a substantial drop in crime over the next few years). Not saying it is right, just that if people get pushed far enough eventually they will correct it, usually that involves violence to make it happen. Somewhat gives a impetus to our governments to sort it out.

If this had been a gang member who was trying to shake folks down for money, or the like, then yeah I could see the Charles Bronson routine going over decently --- but the biggest issue everyone needs to understand that EDP's aren't attempting to be a douche on purpose - they need treatment not attacks.

 

[mariomike]

Dealing with EDP's is always a tough subject.
One Psychiatric Doctor down here was recently discussing a subdue and sedate method -- but I have (and I suspect many entities will as well) issues with how to handle the sedate side.
Are LEO's or Paramedics supposed to just carry around narcotics to sedate potential EDP's, not to mention the health issues that can arise from administering sedatives to people like that under less than ideal conditions with unknown potential conflicts and interactions.

Ketamine is an interesting one.

"Uncooperative and belligerent" man arrested by police. He is struggling with police. Paramedics arrive and give him ketamine. What happened next? ...a $3 million dollar wrongful death settlement.

Report: $3M settlement reached following death of man arrested by Mount Pleasant Police

A settlement has been reached after a man's death in 2019. According to a court filing from Sept. 11, the widow ofJames C. Britt, Jr. agreed toa $3 million wrongful death settlement with the Town of Mount Pleasant following her husband's death in September 2019. A coroner's report from October...

abcnews4.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1288324896733437953

Family settled with the City of Aurora, Colorado for $15 million dollars.

Two Colorado paramedics face counts of manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide, as well as assault and recklessly causing bodily injury with a "deadly weapon": ketamine.

South Metro Fire Rescue will settle a federal lawsuit by paying $115,000 dollars to a man who was sedated with two doses of ketamine by paramedics in 2019.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1458466102762262536

When paramedics arrived, Trammell was handcuffed and struggling on the ground outside his apartment. They gave him two sedatives, ketamine and midazolam, in an attempt to calm him down, the medical examiner’s report says.

By the time they got him into the ambulance, Trammell had stopped breathing and had no pulse. He was pronounced dead within minutes of arriving at the hospital.

etc..........

 

[Booter]

Well I suspect that being a former Marine, he would have undergone at least some sort of BLS.

What will come up is that in MCMAP that they are trained to maintain the position even after compliance without applying pressure. Should he have the basic MCMAP which I suspect he does.

I see that being an issue. As when and what compliance feels like changes, so when he applied the technique it was staying on- pressure going up and down by resistance.

 

[mariomike]

If this had been a gang member who was trying to shake folks down for money, or the like, then yeah I could see the Charles Bronson routine going over decently --- but the biggest issue everyone needs to understand that EDP's aren't attempting to be a douche on purpose - they need treatment not attacks.

Gotta be a few Bronson wannabe's down in the hole.

 

[Haggis]

What will come up is that in MCMAP that they are trained to maintain the position even after compliance without applying pressure. Should he have the basic MCMAP which I suspect he does.

I see that being an issue. As when and what compliance feels like changes, so when he applied the technique it was staying on- pressure going up and down by resistance.

MCMAP is supposed to be mandatory for all Marines. Like everything, waivers can be obtained and qualifications allowed to lapse. Like any martial art, its a persishable skill. The questions this raises are:

• how current was he at the time he separated from the Corps; and
• did he apply the technique correctly and carry out follow-up control and care in accordance with his training?

 

[brihard]

What will come up is that in MCMAP that they are trained to maintain the position even after compliance without applying pressure. Should he have the basic MCMAP which I suspect he does.

I see that being an issue. As when and what compliance feels like changes, so when he applied the technique it was staying on- pressure going up and down by resistance.

Training records will likely not be in the suspect’s favor. If he’s been taught to take vitals and attempt resuscitation, then a departure from that training - a failure to attempt to resuscitate - will cast doubt on his ability to rely on prior training to inform his actions. I.e., it’ll be tough for him to rest any defense on MCMAP or other martial arts training that taught the execution of a chokehold, while also failing super basic first aid lifesaving.

 

[Booter]

We’ll have to disagree i guess.
When I did MCMAP in cherrypoint almost twenty years ago there was almost no “post care” or monitoring vitals. Wasn’t what the training was about. There was however a context where you don’t give the position up and maintain it by pressure on and pressure off. I did it as a candidate and didn’t teach it- so I’m not sure if it’s local flavour or baked in the curriculum,

I’ve also choked people out who seized up in a position of rigidity that felt like resistance, hence why a ref has to be involved.

What is “reasonable” shifts according to the persons background and training. You’re speaking as if you’re discussing a cop. You aren’t.

We ll just have to see how it plays out. Then we can have a gander at what comes out. You guys are basing this off some deeper understanding of use of force that I’m not recent on perhaps. I haven’t done an SME report in ten years. We didn’t use someone’s proficiency in first aid as a barometer for anything.

We used post care to show their headspace or mindstate. But not as a way to discredit some technique. That could be the flavour today.