November 2015: Paris Bataclan attack/hostage taking

[Edward Campbell]

Kilo and Altair are both correct, but neither goes far enough.

The whole region, the giant arc stretching from Morocco to Pakistan, is adrift on a stormy sea of religious, social and cultural complexities and 1,300 years old theological disputes.

We have no helpful role there, and I doubt we have a useful one, either.

Unlike OGBD, I do not oppose selling more and more Western, indeed Canadian arms and ammunition ... but, then, I am not offended by this:

   

    The eastern part of the destroyed Syrian town of Kobane, also known as Ain al-Arab, on January 30, 2015 (AFP Photo)

          ... because I would like to see a return to this famous image:

             

                    ... rather than more and more of this:

                       

 

[Altair]

Kilo and Altair are both correct, but neither goes far enough.

The whole region, the giant arc stretching from Morocco to Pakistan, is adrift on a stormy sea of religious, social and cultural complexities and 1,300 years old theological disputes.

We have no helpful role there, and I doubt we have a useful one, either.

Unlike OGBD, I do not oppose selling more and more Western, indeed Canadian arms and ammunition ... but, then, I am not offended by this:

   

    The eastern part of the destroyed Syrian town of Kobane, also known as Ain al-Arab, on January 30, 2015 (AFP Photo)

          ... because I would like to see a return to this famous image:

             

                    ... rather than more and more of this:

                       

The more you see 9f the first picture the more you get of the last one.

Unless you have tyrants who fight a no rules battle against extremists, most clashes end up with moderate secular forces being defeated by extremist ones.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Are you suggesting that is an absolute, or your opinion?  (the first part of your post)

 

[Altair]

Are you suggesting that is an absolute, or your opinion?  (the first part of your post)

Opinion of course.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I'd be interested if you're able to explain coming to that opinion.  (seriously)  Examples of history, etc.

 

[Edward Campbell]

The more you see 9f the first picture the more you get of the last one.

Unless you have tyrants who fight a no rules battle against extremists, most clashes end up with moderate secular forces being defeated by extremist ones.

The first picture, the bombed out village, is a problem only if we, the US led West, do the bombing. I'm suggesting that we should provide the bombs but the actual fighting, all the actual fighting should be done by (relatively) local people ... so should the physical, social, political, cultural/religious and economic "clean up" be a local problem ... we can lend money, but that's about all we should do.

 

[Altair]

The first picture, the bombed out village, is a problem only if we, the US led West, do the bombing. I'm suggesting that we should provide the bombs but the actual fighting, all the actual fighting should be done by (relatively) local people ... so should the physical, social, political, cultural/religious and economic "clean up" be a local problem ... we can lend money, but that's about all we should do.

The first picture is also a problem if the end result is the second picture running away in defeat and the last picture seizing victory.

As for providing money and arms, well, those 4 or 5 CIA trained moderate rebels for tens of millions of dollars is a really poor investment.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The first picture, the bombed out village, is a problem only if we, the US led West, do the bombing. I'm suggesting that we should provide the bombs but the actual fighting, all the actual fighting should be done by (relatively) local people ... so should the physical, social, political, cultural/religious and economic "clean up" be a local problem ... we can lend money, but that's about all we should do.

In terms of this, are you in support of the US led West providing things like ISR air assets to assist, or should Canada pull it's entire ATF out of the region?

 

[GR66]

Is it harder to deprogram religious indoctrination than political indoctrination?  We have seen that the Hitler Youth were politically indoctrinated and successfully deprogrammed after the war.  We have seen deprogramming have various degrees of success, mostly success, with various cults.  Will deprogramming of these children be any different?  Time is the factor that many today don't seem to want to accept; wanting a quick solution over a time consuming one.

Is this an apples to apples comparison?  Hitler was the leader of the Nazi party...at the end of the war he was dead, his party gone and his army utterly destroyed.  The "faithful" of the Hitler Youth had nothing left to motivate them with every symbol of what they followed gone.  Can you do the same with a religious movement?  You can't "kill" the Prophet.  You can't "erase" a major world-wide religion.  You can't utterly destroy all the faithful. 

Unlike the Nazis, the symbols of radical Islam are not worldly symbols.  As ER Campbell has suggested, only by changing the faith itself through a "reformation" can this movement truly be defeated.

 

[Tuan]

Great article:

You Can't Understand ISIS If You Don't Know the History of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5717157

 

[Kilo_302]

Kilo and Altair are both correct, but neither goes far enough.

The whole region, the giant arc stretching from Morocco to Pakistan, is adrift on a stormy sea of religious, social and cultural complexities and 1,300 years old theological disputes.

We have no helpful role there, and I doubt we have a useful one, either.

Unlike OGBD, I do not oppose selling more and more Western, indeed Canadian arms and ammunition ... but, then, I am not offended by this:

   

    The eastern part of the destroyed Syrian town of Kobane, also known as Ain al-Arab, on January 30, 2015 (AFP Photo)

          ... because I would like to see a return to this famous image:

             

                    ... rather than more and more of this:

                       

The first picture was made possible largely by Soviet influence in Afghanistan. To us of course, something like the Taliban was preferable, just as long as we headed off Soviet interests. I'm all for assisting in the fight against ISIS, but if we're talking about positive change in the Middle East, one of them has to be our self-interested and short sighted policy. Otherwise we're just guaranteeing further instability in the future.

 

[Edward Campbell]

In terms of this, are you in support of the US led West providing things like ISR air assets to assist, or should Canada pull it's entire ATF out of the region?

That's far too "fine grained" for me. I'm trying to talk broad, general, strategic choices: get all out, vs. get all in for a short while vs. get all in and stay in (re-colonization). Of course, none of them will happen in any sort of pure sense. We, the whole US led West,  are, without a doubt, going to try to stay "part way in," not too committed, not too engaged, but not "out," either. Canada will try to find the right niche within that.

 

[Tuan]

Breaking: France has begun a major bombardment of Raqqa. Dropping 20 bombs on alleged ISIS targets.

 

[dapaterson]

The alleged "Syrian passport" is now reported to be a forgery.  http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/syrian-passports-found-scene-paris-attacks-fakes-made-turkey-police-520642631

 

[The Bread Guy]

And something else to throw into the mix - usual initial reports caveats apply here, too, with highlights mine:

Just a half hour before their mosque was set ablaze on Saturday, members of the Kawartha Muslim Religious Association were in the building celebrating the birth of a baby, said the president of the association, Kenzu Abdella.

Shortly after the party left, a neighbour noticed smoke and called 911.

The fire was set deliberately around 11 p.m., police confirmed Sunday. Abdella said the group left at 10:30 p.m.

Police say they don't know the motive, and they don't have a suspect. They couldn't say whether the fire was connected to the attacks in Paris that the Islamic State is taking credit for.

The Peterborough fire department has pegged damages to the mosque at $80,000, though the building's exterior is relatively unscathed.

Abdella said the inside of the building is charred black with smoke damage ....

 

[The Bread Guy]

And another Canadian connection - it appears someone PhotoShopped a Canadian Sikh's photo to look like a suicide bomber, and he's taking a bit of heat ....

Stay classy, haters ....

 

[tomahawk6]

How can you co-exist with an ideolgy that is intolerant and is bent on world domination ?Convert or die and in many cases there is post conversion execution.If we lect IS alone to take control of the muslim world including Europe.Thats what this migration invasion  is all about. Right now they would be a large minority but in time they would become the new majority.Sharia law is already being enforced in parts of Europe.Against creeping islamification of the West there is no defense.

 

[dapaterson]

How can you co-exist with an ideolgy that is intolerant and is bent on world domination ?

Well, the 49th parallel is a bit of a divide.

 

[dimsum]

Well, the 49th parallel is a bit of a divide.

:rofl:

 

[Kilo_302]

How can you co-exist with an ideolgy that is intolerant and is bent on world domination ?Convert or die and in many cases there is post conversion execution.If we lect IS alone to take control of the muslim world including Europe.Thats what this migration invasion  is all about. Right now they would be a large minority but in time they would become the new majority.Sharia law is already being enforced in parts of Europe.Against creeping islamification of the West there is no defense.

So you're suggesting that desperate migrants fleeing an active war zone are somehow homogeneously part of a broader Muslim conspiracy? That ISIS represents all Muslims? Racist paranoia.