Not Given Promised Pay Incentive DEO

[PuckChaser]

I don't see where in CBI 204.015 that a member can be granted a higher pay increment for education, for anything other than prior service. I want to make sure this is clear, are you currently being paid on the Officer pay scale "C", as you should as your entry plan was DEO, and you believe you should have a higher pay increment that you were offered? Or are you being paid on the "A" pay scale?

The only time I've seen money given to someone because of education would be a Recruitment Allowance (CBI 205.525), but it is currently suspended by CANFORGEN 114/12 CMP 048/12 121601Z JUN 12.

 

[chrisf]

Let me just clarify, my intention was not to alienate, it was simply to state that IF they were more willing to release than to go through with a lengthy and often difficult grievance despite having a rewarding career in a great organization, then maybe they should look elsewhere anyway.

Why shouldn't money be a motivating factor in career choices?

Unless the recruiting centers start printing "might as well relax, because we're going to screw you" on their pamphlets, if I had joined the forces as a qualified professional, $7200 in my first year of employment would be enough to make me reconsider those choices...

There was an article that popped up in my Facebook news feed this morning on forces retirees turning to charity and food banks because of pension delays...

Like it or not, money puts food on the table and keeps a roof  over heads, and while I don't know the details of the op's scenario aside from what he's said, it wouldn't be the first time the cf needs to get it's act together on pay and benefits.

No, the pay in the cf won't compete with the pay in the civilian world in certain jobs, but I can't believe how happily some members would attack someone got for asking questions about what they were promised/entitled to, particularly if he's doing the job he's expected to do in the mean time.

Edit: I have no idea if/if not the op has a leg to stand on, and honestly don't care, just tired of people being attacked when they ask questions about pay.

 

[MidShipsMan]

I don't see where in CBI 204.015 that a member can be granted a higher pay increment for education, for anything other than prior service. I want to make sure this is clear, are you currently being paid on the Officer pay scale "C", as you should as your entry plan was DEO, and you believe you should have a higher pay increment that you were offered? Or are you being paid on the "A" pay scale?

The only time I've seen money given to someone because of education would be a Recruitment Allowance (CBI 205.525), but it is currently suspended by CANFORGEN 114/12 CMP 048/12 121601Z JUN 12.

Here is the reference.

204.015(1) (Purpose) Pay increments as set out in the tables to the CBIs in this chapter serve two purposes:

    to determine the rate of pay on enrolment, transfer or change in class of Reserve Service based on pay credits that, in accordance with orders or instructions issued by the Chief of Defence Staff, reflect the amount of qualifying service, academic or other special qualifications possessed by an applicant that are determined to be of military value; and

 

[PuckChaser]

Didn't answer the second part though. Are you currently on the C pay scale?

 

[RedcapCrusader]

Why shouldn't money be a motivating factor in career choices?

Unless the recruiting centers start printing "might as well relax, because we're going to screw you" on their pamphlets, if I had joined the forces as a qualified professional, $7200 in my first year of employment would be enough to make me reconsider those choices...

There was an article that popped up in my Facebook news feed this morning on forces retirees turning to charity and food banks because of pension delays...

Like it or not, money puts food on the table and keeps a roof  over heads, and while I don't know the details of the op's scenario aside from what he's said, it wouldn't be the first time the cf needs to get it's act together on pay and benefits.

No, the pay in the cf won't compete with the pay in the civilian world in certain jobs, but I can't believe how happily some members would attack someone got for asking questions about what they were promised/entitled to, particularly if he's doing the job he's expected to do in the mean time.

Edit: I have no idea if/if not the op has a leg to stand on, and honestly don't care, just tired of people being attacked when they ask questions about pay.

I think you've misconstrued my message.

I meant it not as in "you're being greedy, frig off" I meant it as in "pay isn't great, and they'll do everything to give you as little as possible."

Someone with that kind of impressive education should be able to have better success competing for better compensation in the non-CF public service or even the private sector. I understand why people gravitate to us, I do. But at the end of the day, when it comes to pay, there really is no negotiations in the CAF unless you have substantive proof that you are eligible for it.

 

[chrisf]

I meant it not as in "you're being greedy, frig off" I meant it as in "pay isn't great, and they'll do everything to give you as little as possible."

I don't really feel that makes it any better.

Op is clearly aware of the difference in pay scales, but chose the cf anyway...

If he feels he's hard done by or not receiving what he was promised, nothing wrong with questioning it.

He could well be a greedy whiner, I have no idea, but if his chain of command insulting him rather than providing him with a reference, maybe that's a problem.

Like I said, I have no idea what's involved with the ops case, there's two sides to every story, and I doubt he has anything in writing from the recruiting centre, but money is and always will be a factor.

 

[George Wallace]

.......  The real problem lies with what the CFRC promised though.  The CF is responsible for what the CFRC states to the applicant/enrollee even if what was stated is not consistent with policy which may or may not be the case here(recent judicial reviews confirm this).

Again, I think the OP would be wise to contact their CFRC of enrolment to see if there's any documentation with respect to pay entitlements for education because without proof it will be tough slogging.

As has been mentioned; the staff at the CFRC are not the ones who make the decisions as to what a prospect will be paid when they are enrolled.  That decision is made at a higher level, by people who looked at the prospect's qualifications and did a PLAR to determine which qualifications they will accept and what pay IPC they will award the prospect on entry.  If the prospect is hearing something other than what is said, then there could be a problem.  How many times have we seen examples of someone hearing only what they want to hear, right here on this site?
Those who have reviewed the prospect's qualifications and decided on the IPC that they will be awarded will do so in the message that is included in the offer, and sent to their first posting.  As a DEO, the OP in this case is already making more than other new prospects who have entered under other plans.

As I initially said, without documentation, their argument/grievance boils down to a case of "he said/she said" and could have numerous responses varying from "no change, what we decided was the correct amount" to "we will do a reevaluation" and most likely be a very time consuming matter whichever decision is made.  If the OP does manage to win their case, they will see a large lump sum payment made and a correction made to their IPC at some date in the future.

If the OP has entered into the grievance process, then all we have here is nothing more than speculation along with some good advice on how to conduct the grievance process mixed in here and there.

Advice I always passed on, was much the same as this, to create your own "Shadow Files" at home to cover all your military documents: Posting Msgs, Crse Reports, Travel Claims, Sick Chits/Medical docs, Pay docs, PT/BFT tests, etc. to ensure that if you do find a problem, you also have documentation of your own to back up your claims to correct an error: 

First lesson in the Canadian Armed Forces - nothing is promised unless it's in writing.

Second lesson - don't sign anything unless you actually agree with it.

Third lesson - keep copies of everything.

You land up being your own RMS Clerk.  [

 

[da1root]

My post is intended to provide some general information about the Pay Increment Policy - Special Treatment as signed by the CDS for this group, hopefully raising awareness amongst the community as our currently and ex-serving members are at times our best recruiters.

Here is the reference.

204.015(1) (Purpose) Pay increments as set out in the tables to the CBIs in this chapter serve two purposes:

    to determine the rate of pay on enrolment, transfer or change in class of Reserve Service based on pay credits that, in accordance with orders or instructions issued by the Chief of Defence Staff, reflect the amount of qualifying service, academic or other special qualifications possessed by an applicant that are determined to be of military value; and

CBI 204.015(1) is only part of the authority to grant Pay Incentives on enrolment. Yearly (sometimes 2-3 times a year) the CDS will put out a CDS Order titled "Pay Increment Policy - Special Treatment" the CFRC's and CFRG HQ personnel commonly call this the "Tick n Flick", it's the policy that it used to determine what pay incentive someone will receive upon enrolment.

The granting of Pay Incentives to DEO's with academic experience hasn't always been in existence and is still fairly new to the recruiting world.  Depending on when someone enrolled is depending on whether the CDS order would apply (i.e. someone who enrolled in 2014 is not entitled to the Pay Incentive, but someone who enrolled in 2016 is).

How about we pretend I'm a DEO pilot with a Masters in Atmospheric Sciences, and PhD project in an Aeronautical Engineering topic. No one ever questions the applicability of my credentials in my case.

Unfortunately this cannot be done, to determine a Pay Increment eligibility one would need to know what trade you're going into and what your education is.  The policy is stated as:

A graduate of a university, or college or educational institute that has degree granting authority who is assigned to an officer military occupation for which their academic studies and degree meets the entry standards for the targeted officer military occupation.

Best explained, if you are going CELE (Communications and Electronics Engineering (Air)) and have a 4 year Bachelor of Engineering (in any of the following areas: Communications; Computers; Electrical; Physics;  or Software/Software Systems) and a Masters in Arts, you would be given the credit for the 4 year Engineering degree and not the Masters as it doesn't pertain to the trade.

One final note:

I have heard of DEO having to collect OCdt Salary until completion of BMOQ, BOTC, and then are given backpay to their respective rank and IPC.

It has been awhile since I worked as the Offers Sergeant so I spoke with the CFRG HQ Offers Cell on this statement, and they've stated this should never be the case.  When Pay Incentives are granted in accordance with the CDS Order for academic experience, it should be paid as of the date of enrolment less any leave without pay. 

The member will wear the rank of OCdt / NCdt while on BMOQ and the "promotion" (i.e. wearing of rank) to 2Lt / A/SLt will be upon completion of BMOQ back dated, however for anyone that has a copy of the ETP message, the pay is defined in paragraph 3 which will be inline with whatever is granted in accordance with the "Pay Increment Policy - Special Treatment".

If you know of anyone that doesn't have this happening please send me a PM, while I won't personally solve the issue I can reach out to the cell that would clarify the enrolment message with the applicable staff.

Best Regards,
Sgt Laen

 

[DAA]

MidShipsMan
I'm a non-professional.
But, if I had a recruiting or pay related situation like yours, the person I would reach out to for help is DAA because he is an expert on such matters.
He has helped many others. I'm surprised he has not responded to your post yet as questions like this are right up his alley.

Thanks mariomike and I have reached out with an offer of assistance but the individual refuses to provide the necessary information (ie; Occupation and Education Credentials) needed to make an educated guess, hence my reluctance to chime in until now.

Sgt Laen has provided the best response.  Both he and I know the policy, how it applies and what the process is at the time of application.  There is no room for negotiating salary with the CAF, the offer of employment is a "take it or leave it" deal but there are instances when an error can and has occurred.  It doesn't take a grievance to have this corrected if a correction is required, it starts with a simple query to the appropriate office and then wait for the response back, which shouldn't take more than a week or two.

The only thing official, is the Offer of Employment which new members to the CAF are suppose to and should be signing.  If it's not in the offer, you aren't getting it and "promises" don't count and never will.  Good luck!

 

[MidShipsMan]

I'm simply trying to retain some personal privacy by not disclosing my Unit and personal information. If it offends someone that I don't disclose my private information, then please respectfully withhold your advice instead of sending rude personal messages.

Site Privacy Policy

Army.ca will not collect or maintain your private and personally identifiable information without your consent. Further, if you consent to give us your personal information, we will keep it confidential and will not sell, license or disclose your personal information to any third party without your consent, unless we are compelled to do so under the law or to comply with a court order.

My hypothetical about the pilot does in fact work, and has in fact worked as here are examples of some of my colleagues that were given incentives upon enrollment in 2015:
-Infantry Officer DEO with a Masters in Science Biochemistry = Pay Level C, increment 2
-Infantry Officer DEO with a Masters of Economics = Pay Level C, increment 2
-MARS Officer DEO with a Masters in International Studies = Pay Level C, increment 2
-Pilot DEO with a MSc, PhD Aeronautics = Pay Level C, increment 2

My personal credentials have ZERO bearing on this discussion. Assume that my "academic or other special qualifications possessed by an applicant that are determined to be of military value" and move on.

 

[George Wallace]

I'm simply trying to retain some personal privacy by not disclosing my Unit and personal information. If it offends someone that I don't disclose my private information, then please respectfully withhold your advice instead of sending rude personal messages.

Site Privacy Policy

Army.ca will not collect or maintain your private and personally identifiable information without your consent. Further, if you consent to give us your personal information, we will keep it confidential and will not sell, license or disclose your personal information to any third party without your consent, unless we are compelled to do so under the law or to comply with a court order.

My hypothetical about the pilot does in fact work, and has in fact worked as here are examples of some of my colleagues that were given incentives upon enrollment in 2015:
-Infantry Officer DEO with a Masters in Science Biochemistry = Pay Level C, increment 2
-Infantry Officer DEO with a Masters of Economics = Pay Level C, increment 2
-MARS Officer DEO with a Masters in International Studies = Pay Level C, increment 2
-Pilot DEO with a MSc, PhD Aeronautics = Pay Level C, increment 2

My personal credentials have ZERO bearing on this discussion. Assume that my "academic or other special qualifications possessed by an applicant that are determined to be of military value" and move on.

Two points:

1.  The person you are 'insulting' with your remarks in this quote is, having been in the Recruiting role in the past, and very familiar with its policies, more than qualified to give an answer and they offered you their service via a private means.  Your attitude is out of line, with your comments above.

2.  As was explained, the PLAR is done and does not take into account any non-related degrees or qualifications.  Your examples fall into that category.  The Masters Degrees in your examples, for the main, were irrelevant.

 

[DAA]

Sorry that I offended you by saying "I'm offering assistance and if you can't see that, then clearly you are too wrapped up in the "pay issue" to recognize this, so I will leave you to your own demise."  I don't see this as being rude but rather accurate and constructive criticism.

You've merely demonstrated by your previous posts that you already possess a "sense of entitlement" and most likely had it before you even received your job offer and commission.  When a helping hand is being offered, you totally ignore that also.  I took things "offline" and asked for your Occupation and Educational Credentials and nothing more.  Can't help you, without that info.    :facepalm:

What do you insist that your subordinates address you as?  SLt "Dr" Midshipsman or "Dr" SLt Midshipsman? 

 

[PuckChaser]

Problem is a trust issue. DAA has offered numerous times to use his real life connections to informally check on issues. I would have no problem giving him trade/rank in a context like this because he hasn't burned a forum member, at all. If you're that worried about privacy, don't post your question on an open forum. The CAF is a small place, and I'm willing to bet someone already knows exactly who you are. Take the help, or don't and ask for this to be locked, you've got all the help anyone can give without you taking up DAA on his offer.

 

[Scott]

Re-reading my earlier posts I binned them because they were not meant to take a swipe at anyone. I was not adding to anything anyone else had said here.

Cheers

 

[Journeyman]

Like Scott, I too have decided it's not worth the effort and have deleted my post.

 

[MidShipsMan]

Thanks to those that posted helpful advice on what I can expect after the grievance is processed. Which was the stated question in the original post.

Its unfortunate that several of you have resorted to pressuring someone to forgo a protection provided by the site's privacy policy. This post is as much a resource for understanding a component of the recruitment administrative process as it is an example of a toxic culture.

 

[AbdullahD]

Thanks to those that posted helpful advice on what I can expect after the grievance is processed. Which was the stated question in the original post.

Its unfortunate that several of you have resorted to pressuring someone to forgo a protection provided by the site's privacy policy. This post is as much a resource for understanding a component of the recruitment administrative process as it is an example of a toxic culture.

MSM I'll try to be as neutral as I can.

From what I understand in my ignorance, is that you are asking a question that has very specific variables. Without knowing those precise variables people here can not fully assist you.

which has put you in a predicament, either you can release that specific information so the general membership here can help you or you can withhold it.

Now I lurk this site a LOT yet post very rarely, because my knowledge on many of these topics is nil. But I feel from watching the posters here, that MOST of the longtime membership is safe to trust.

I highly recommend reaching out privately to DAA if he is still willing to help. Sometimes the hardest thing to do is swallow your pride and change your course. But this is just my opinion.. and you know what they say about those

All the best

Abdullah

 

[MidShipsMan]

Apologies for the SUPER LONG DELAY to update on this issue.
The normal grievance procedure was not exercised in this case, and I was very suddenly granted the pay rate I was promised in my enrolment letter in summer of 2018, roughly 2.5 years after the grievance was filed. I received no paperwork acknowledging the error other than my EMAA statement that included back pay for the 2.5+ years, and the correct pay rate moving forward.

My advice to those in the same situation (not being paid what their enrolment letter promises)
1. Keep you enrolment letter (without this piece of evidence, I feel I would have had to wait for the grievance to process to complete, and I would have not been successful).
2. Do your duties and carry on, every single unit I transferred to needed to be notified of the grievance, and several of those units responded with a LOT of pressure to drop the grievance. Calling me entitled, and getting a lot of resentment from Junior Officers in my CoC. I even made photocopies of my enrolment letter, and a sample pay statement to show any doubters, and as briefly as possible, and said to them "lets get back to work, and I thank you for your support".
One grizzled Lt(N) once told me, in an attempt to get me to drop the grievance, "you need to ask yourself what you can do for the Navy, not what the Navy can do for you". I replied, "I'm here to do my duties no questions asked, while patiently waiting for the Navy fulfill its contractual obligations Sir."
3. Prepare yourself for some tax implications. I had to get additional documentation indicating that this was "back-pay" and that the funds were to be taxed over 3 calendar years, as opposed to what happens by default, which is a huge tax hit all on the year the arrears are awarded.

Thanks again to all that provided insights and support. To those that were butt hurt because I didn't respond to DMs, nor did I provide my unit, trade, rank; next time just move on. My purpose of posting here was to provide an example to anyone in a similar situation. This is not entitlement, it was a violation of a contract, and should be followed up on respectfully and professionally though proper administrative channels. I did my duty for 2.5 years with no hesitation while Her Majesty was in violation of my contract. That's how you get through this.

 

[da1root]

Glad it was all sorted out for you finally! Best of luck in your career moving forward.

I now have 25 years of service, have 1 grievance that I filed back in 2013 (that I won); just remember how you were treated during this; don't become grizzled by it, just remember to provide better support to those coming up behind you.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Apologies for the SUPER LONG DELAY to update on this issue.
The normal grievance procedure was not exercised in this case, and I was very suddenly granted the pay rate I was promised in my enrolment letter in summer of 2018, roughly 2.5 years after the grievance was filed. I received no paperwork acknowledging the error other than my EMAA statement that included back pay for the 2.5+ years, and the correct pay rate moving forward.

My advice to those in the same situation (not being paid what their enrolment letter promises)
1. Keep you enrolment letter (without this piece of evidence, I feel I would have had to wait for the grievance to process to complete, and I would have not been successful).
2. Do your duties and carry on, every single unit I transferred to needed to be notified of the grievance, and several of those units responded with a LOT of pressure to drop the grievance. Calling me entitled, and getting a lot of resentment from Junior Officers in my CoC. I even made photocopies of my enrolment letter, and a sample pay statement to show any doubters, and as briefly as possible, and said to them "lets get back to work, and I thank you for your support".
One grizzled Lt(N) once told me, in an attempt to get me to drop the grievance, "you need to ask yourself what you can do for the Navy, not what the Navy can do for you". I replied, "I'm here to do my duties no questions asked, while patiently waiting for the Navy fulfill its contractual obligations Sir."
3. Prepare yourself for some tax implications. I had to get additional documentation indicating that this was "back-pay" and that the funds were to be taxed over 3 calendar years, as opposed to what happens by default, which is a huge tax hit all on the year the arrears are awarded.

Thanks again to all that provided insights and support. To those that were butt hurt because I didn't respond to DMs, nor did I provide my unit, trade, rank; next time just move on. My purpose of posting here was to provide an example to anyone in a similar situation. This is not entitlement, it was a violation of a contract, and should be followed up on respectfully and professionally though proper administrative channels. I did my duty for 2.5 years with no hesitation while Her Majesty was in violation of my contract. That's how you get through this.

Well done and good for you for having the fortitude to stick to your guns.

It took me a similar amount of time early in my career to get paid the proper rate I was entitled to.

As for the haters, they're just dumb bootlickers .