No more rifles on drill/grad parade?

[Colin Parkinson]

I've mentioned it before but I work in post secondary ed, and specifically on the technology side and this was one of the biggest shocks to me. The amount of kids who have no idea how to use a keyboard or a windows computer actually blows my mind. Young people (those currently under 30 yrs old) mostly grew up using phones and ipads and it's seriously affecting their ability to use business tech effectively. Anecdotally, the profs I've spoken with regularly complain that the new students are getting dumber, are less able to navigate university processes, and less able to think independantly.

My part Indian wife taught both daughters how to type while standing over them with a spatula. They can type faster and more accurately than I can. both of them are super thankfully they can type quickly, particularly the one in university.

 

[OldSolduer]

My part Indian wife taught both daughters how to type while standing over them with a spatula. They can type faster and more accurately than I can. both of them are super thankfully they can type quickly, particularly the one in university.

I am never going near a keyboard if your wife is around.....

 

[Brad Sallows]

My part Indian wife taught both daughters how to type while standing over them with a spatula.

That's just wrong. What happened to wooden spoons?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I am never going near a keyboard if your wife is around.....

I will never ask her to help improve my typing either.....

 

[Colin Parkinson]

A wee bit on training Roman recruits, sounds familiar

 

[RangerRay]

If I might weigh in:

I've had some time to think about this. Drill has been part of being in a military forever. The Greeks did it, the Romans etc etc.

Drill serves several purposes and I know some will not agree.

1. Teamwork - everyone moves at the same time in the same direction in response to a command. If that doesn't happen its a crap show;

2. Its bloody stressful as a young soldier to perform properly for yourself and your peers and your instructor. Drill can be a lesson in how to handle that stress;

3. Drill teaches people to obey orders. The military isn't a democracy and as a young recruit you obey those orders;

4. Weapons drill - which is what this is all about - gives a new soldier a certain amount of confidence with that weapon, just learning how to do drill with it in conjunction with marksmanship training;

5. Drill imparts a certain amount of self discipline, for instance not shuffling around or swatting a mosquito when you're at the position of attention. Otherwise the discipline is imposed and its not fun. Trust me. (Sgt Archie Rafters, The RCR scared the hell out of me)

Now whether the CAF decides when weapons drill is taught on BMQ or in later training is a topic worth discussing.

How long before the post BMQ training (ie TQ3 or whatever it is called) decides they don't have time to teach weapons drill?

Just a thought.

So if they push weapons drill to trades training, will they make that course longer to teach it? Somehow I doubt it.

 

[Castus]

Not quite sure people won't relate to the org because we cut rifle drill at BMQ/BMOQ

Recruiting for militaries is down across the Western world so there is obviously something larger at play. One could argue changing identity is the issue or maybe the old ways of endearing ourselves to folks is not appealing. It is probably much more complex than either of those but in my opinion ppl join and stay in an org that cares for them and the CAF needs to get better on that side of the house, as in general the people we want to join are way smarter than those of yesteryear and won't put up with being treated poorly.

Recruitment for western militaries is down generally for a variety of factors. A big factor is that they have given up on advocating for their unique military cultures and 'gone with the flow'. Organisations that have not done so as much - the USMC is a grand example, as it retains much of its distinctive identity and core beliefs in soldiering - likely have less of an issue. As we have begun to act like less of a military and more of a laissez faire public service job, except one with a lot of BS to put up with (training, exercises, deployments & other away from home) we have seen a decline.

The answer is that we triple down on our heritage, our identity and our culture. We further triple down on core skills - for the Army, this includes soldiering as a key function, regardless of trade. This is what attracts our core demographic. Our core demographic is not a particularly politically correct thing to talk about, but it remains true regardless. They want a strong institution with its own beliefs, that sticks to them and is serious about the profession of arms. We have strayed.

or it could be that they are way more self entitled, babied, candy assed people that need someone to hold their hand and tell them that 2+2=4. I certainly don't see the "way smarter" crowd you mention. Are they keeping them all in the NCR? Maybe I am just getting too old but it does get tiring telling people the same thing over and over. Used to be 2 or 3 times was enough now it is every time.

I have not generally seen an increase in quality of soldier throughout my career. I certainly do not think that soldiers nowadays are smarter than when I joined in the late 2000s. This is a conceit of our age, the worship of youth that we invoke to say 'the kids are so smart!'. It's tosh.

Recruiting is down for western militaries, I stated retention though, which is specific extra low in the CAF. It also lines up pretty accurately with when we stopped pushing our culture and identity.

Substantially lower camaraderie, reduced identity with the organization, and a look at whats going on around you making them realize what reason are they staying for? We have paid people substantially less yet never had the retention issues we have today, why? There was a identity and pride in who and what we are. There is a reason every military in the world seeks to develop it.

Agreed.

Cute story brah, got anything of substance to add?

Don't be nasty. This is supposed to be a gentlemen's and ladies' forums. If you want to invoke a reddit attitude, do it on reddit.

 

[MJP]

My part Indian wife taught both daughters how to type while standing over them with a spatula. They can type faster and more accurately than I can. both of them are super thankfully they can type quickly, particularly the one in university.

The threat of physical abuse if one messes up is not quite the flex you think it is....

 

[MJP]

Don't be nasty. This is supposed to be a gentlemen's and ladies' forums. If you want to invoke a reddit attitude, do it on reddit.

If one posts like reddit I will respond like reddit. You ignored my level responses to the remainder of the thread and attack me one my response after I was attacked....

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

The CAF trying to reinvent the wheel has worked so well in the past.... surely this will be just as big a success

Armies have been creating and training soldiers for thousands of years and the methods haven't changed much.

Surely we know better though

No rifle drill is just about the most ridiculous thing I've heard. Drill is about discipline and following orders, and it's also about reacting to a command.

Everything we do is a drill movement for god sakes.

 

[MJP]

I have not generally seen an increase in quality of soldier throughout my career. I certainly do not think that soldiers nowadays are smarter than when I joined in the late 2000s. This is a conceit of our age, the worship of youth that we invoke to say 'the kids are so smart!'. It's tosh.

I was infantry from 1997 - 2007 Res & Reg Force then I went Log O. In that time went to Bosnia and Afghan a few time in a variety of roles and lots of in-between fun. I wasn't great but I was decent enough and there enough ppl on this forum that know me personally that can call me to account.

After moving to Log O, I was privileged to be a QM at a 1st line Infantry unit and work with a different unit overseas and generally the folks I worked with in that time period were smarter and better than I or my peers were in general. Were some shitty? Sure, but on the aggregate they were just as hard and good as we were when push came to shove. I was then and continue to be impressed by the quality of soldier we put out. To say they aren't is as much a condemnation to those that are mentoring them just as it of the soldiers themselves

 

[btrudy]

Recruitment for western militaries is down generally for a variety of factors. A big factor is that they have given up on advocating for their unique military cultures and 'gone with the flow'. Organisations that have not done so as much - the USMC is a grand example, as it retains much of its distinctive identity and core beliefs in soldiering - likely have less of an issue. As we have begun to act like less of a military and more of a laissez faire public service job, except one with a lot of BS to put up with (training, exercises, deployments & other away from home) we have seen a decline.

The answer is that we triple down on our heritage, our identity and our culture. We further triple down on core skills - for the Army, this includes soldiering as a key function, regardless of trade. This is what attracts our core demographic. Our core demographic is not a particularly politically correct thing to talk about, but it remains true regardless. They want a strong institution with its own beliefs, that sticks to them and is serious about the profession of arms. We have strayed.

Do we need to focus on the "core demographic"? No. We need to focus on expanding the institution's appeal beyond the core demographic, because relying upon the outdated model of said core demographic clearly isn't working. We're bleeding personnel for a reason.

People need to wake up and smell the damned coffee. Society is shifting, and people's attitudes towards work is absolutely one of them. In particular, Gen Z's attitudes towards employment is drastically different. Trying to shift to doing the way we did things 30 years ago will have the opposite of the intended effect.

The CAF trying to reinvent the wheel has worked so well in the past.... surely this will be just as big a success

Armies have been creating and training soldiers for thousands of years and the methods haven't changed much.

Surely we know better though

No rifle drill is just about the most ridiculous thing I've heard. Drill is about discipline and following orders, and it's also about reacting to a command.

Everything we do is a drill movement for god sakes.

It's almost like warfare has changed since we used to line up and march towards the enemy who also helpfully lined up. Drill is no longer a functional operational requirement. Warfare has changed, so how we train for warfare should change too. "We've done this for thousands of years" is actually a pretty stupid reason to keep doing it; if your methods haven't changed in that long, then they're clearly outdated.

 

[CBH99]

Are you doing it at CFLRS St Jean, and did you guys learn the new drill or old rifle drill?

I know I'm a bit late to this show...

But for those of us with time in, a few deployments under our belts (even combat deployment) - some (most) of us are old enough to be your distant big brother, father, or grandfather...


"New rifle drill compared to the old, you say?"

<Insert confused old man here>

 

[quadrapiper]

It's almost like warfare has changed since we used to line up and march towards the enemy who also helpfully lined up. Drill is no longer a functional operational requirement. Warfare has changed, so how we train for warfare should change too. "We've done this for thousands of years" is actually a pretty stupid reason to keep doing it; if your methods haven't changed in that long, then they're clearly outdated.

Someone, either on here or on Arrse, mentioned drill being useful for public order tasks. Is that still applicable?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

It's almost like warfare has changed since we used to line up and march towards the enemy who also helpfully lined up. Drill is no longer a functional operational requirement. Warfare has changed, so how we train for warfare should change too. "We've done this for thousands of years" is actually a pretty stupid reason to keep doing it; if your methods haven't changed in that long, then they're clearly outdated.

This is a form of drill:

This is a form of drill:

This is a form of drill:

This is a form of drill:

Every single thing we do is a form of drill. Maybe things haven't changed .


If you can't do something as simple as parade square drill, why should we think you can possibly execute more complex manoeuvres?

 

[Eaglelord17]

Do we need to focus on the "core demographic"? No. We need to focus on expanding the institution's appeal beyond the core demographic, because relying upon the outdated model of said core demographic clearly isn't working. We're bleeding personnel for a reason.

People need to wake up and smell the damned coffee. Society is shifting, and people's attitudes towards work is absolutely one of them. In particular, Gen Z's attitudes towards employment is drastically different. Trying to shift to doing the way we did things 30 years ago will have the opposite of the intended effect.



It's almost like warfare has changed since we used to line up and march towards the enemy who also helpfully lined up. Drill is no longer a functional operational requirement. Warfare has changed, so how we train for warfare should change too. "We've done this for thousands of years" is actually a pretty stupid reason to keep doing it; if your methods haven't changed in that long, then they're clearly outdated.

Societies attitudes towards work is shifting, the requirements of the CAF are intensifying not decreasing however.

Education and training is how you adapt recruits to the CAFs requirements because otherwise they will not be capable of doing so. Right now we are in a weird place societally where we argue for ‘collective’ rights yet try to treat everything and everyone as a individual. The CAF doesn’t need a bunch of individuals, we need people to act as a collective. To foster a group identity.

This is why you are supposed to get broken down on basic and brought back up to the standards and requirements we need. I would argue that a military culture is more needed now than ever due to how little patriotism, pride, and honour exists in our society at the moment.

Warfare hasn’t changed. At the end of the day Ukraine looks a lot like Korea or WWII just with a bit fancier kit. ‘Outdated’ is a buzzword used by those who in many cases don’t know what they are talking about. Part of the problem is people struggle with why we do things because we have failed to explain them properly.

 

[OldSolduer]

They’re called “battle drills” for a reason. Parade square drills are battle drills of the past.

People might think parade square drill is obsolete and unnecessary.

I’m not so sure about that.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

They’re called “battle drills” for a reason. Parade square drills are battle drills of the past.

People might think parade square drill is obsolete and unnecessary.

I’m not so sure about that.

It takes far less resources (time, money equipment) for a Bn of infantry to execute a Trooping the Colour parade than it does a full level 5 BTS BG attack.

Both require precision, dedication, strict adherence to orders, teamwork, and faith that every soldier will do their individual duty to accomplish the collective effort. The difference is that you can do one more often without blowing through your training budget in a month.

I'll paraphrase former Major General Commanding the Household Divison Sir Simon Cooper, who said that parading at Horse Guards was more than just pageantry, it was like being a gladiator coming into the arena. It was a direct call out to the enemies of the realm that this is what they faced should they try to bring harm to the UK: a unified, professional force that will kill you with the same precision, efficiency, and dedication it takes to execute the parade.

It's more than just square bashing for the sake of vanity, it's to build the cohesion and discipline needed to be that force that can effectively and efficiently complete complex tasks as a group.

Does that include the RCAF, RCN, and the tech specialists? Yes. Why? Same reason as above. If I cannot trust that you're not going to cock up a march past in column of route, what confidence should I have that you'll be competent in the performance of your load station?

If you cannot perfect the simple things, the harder stuff will be done sloppily, recklessly, and dangerously

 

[Halifax Tar]

It takes far less resources (time, money equipment) for a Bn of infantry to execute a Trooping the Colour parade than it does a full level 5 BTS BG attack.

Both require precision, dedication, strict adherence to orders, teamwork, and faith that every soldier will do their individual duty to accomplish the collective effort. The difference is that you can do one more often without blowing through your training budget in a month.

I'll paraphrase former Major General Commanding the Household Divison Sir Simon Cooper, who said that parading at Horse Guards was more than just pageantry, it was like being a gladiator coming into the arena. It was a direct call out to the enemies of the realm that this is what they faced should they try to bring harm to the UK: a unified, professional force that will kill you with the same precision, efficiency, and dedication it takes to execute the parade.

It's more than just square bashing for the sake of vanity, it's to build the cohesion and discipline needed to be that force that can effectively and efficiently complete complex tasks as a group.

Does that include the RCAF, RCN, and the tech specialists? Yes. Why? Same reason as above. If I cannot trust that you're not going to cock up a march past in column of route, what confidence should I have that you'll be competent in the performance of your load station?

If you cannot perfect the simple things, the harder stuff will be done sloppily, recklessly, and dangerously

Respectfully, there is a lot of bluster and chest pounding there. We should also be reminded we (Western Militaries) routinely get sent packing by people in man jammies and rusty AKs. And these same foe routinely defeat other traditionally razed and trained militaries from non western aligned nations.

While I get your point about the small stuff and its correlation to getting the big stuff; in this context, I'm not sure I buy it. And I think more and more its a façade used to resist change.

Don't get me wrong, drill and parades have a time and place; and they should be an expected facet of military life. But it should come secondary to producing OFP pers.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Respectfully, there is a lot of bluster and chest pounding there. We should also be reminded we (Western Militaries) routinely get sent packing by people in man jammies and rusty AKs. And these same foe routinely defeat other traditionally razed and trained militaries from non western aligned nations.

While I get your point about the small stuff and its correlation to getting the big stuff; in this context, I'm not sure I buy it. And I think more and more its a façade used to resist change.

Don't get me wrong, drill and parades have a time and place; and they should be an expected facet of military life. But it should come secondary to producing OFP pers.

We didn’t get sent packing, we chose to leave, a very distinct difference. If anyone believes the Afghanis had anywhere near peer capability or forced us out they are delusional.

If your argument as to why we should do less drill is because a bunch of irregular militias who routinely commit war crimes don’t then, clearly drill is a good thing for a nation which holds its military to a professional standard.