No more rifles on drill/grad parade?

[ArmyRick]

@btrudy So the answer to my other questions remains unanswered. Can I assume you have never instructed recruits?

Point noted.

 

[ArmyRick]

I think you've described about 90% of the CAF....

Normally I agree with about 90-95% of what you post.

Not sure where you stand on this issue. May I ask some questions
1. In your opinion, Does drill (including arms drill) belong universally in recruit training?
2. As above, do you feel drill should be taught above to recruits?
3. If drill should be taught (but not at recruit training), when should it be taught?
4. What other aspects of BMQ/BMOQ do you feel is useless or a hinderance to skills progression?

 

[ArmyRick]

I mean, yeah, we kinda led the way on that front.

And I would like to remind everyone that it lead to months if not years of bitching on this forum, largely from the same people complaining in this thread about rifle drill. And, while we're at it, none of the grand predictions made about how those changes would negatively impact discipline, etc, have come to pass.

But the argument that I was responding to was that "if it was a good idea someone else would have done it". So pointing at what is frankly one of the few instances where Canada led the way in updating military culture to better suit current social norms isn't exactly supporting that argument. Instead it should be viewed as an example of "hey, we did this change and it's working out ok, let's keep at it".



No I do not. Some traditions are useful, and some are not. Things honouring the fallen are almost always worthwhile.

But as for the "zero negative impact", you seem to be completely discounting the opportunity cost. Whatever time is spent prepping for getting said infantry battalion ready for the trooping of the colors is time that could have instead been dedicated towards teaching operational skills. Or even just enjoying a bit more down-tempo time between urgent tasks and preventing burnout.

Not that I really buy the whole "drills maintains a link to the past and history of the regiment" aspect to be honest. You know what would? A history lesson. Actually learning what the people who came before you did, things they got right and the things they got wrong.



Well I sure as shit don't serve because of tradition. Frankly, I don't get why people like you keep asking questions like this. Is a love for tradition and buttons and bows and marching up and down the parade square really the only reason you folks can think of to want to be in the military? You can't fathom people wanting to be in for reasons related to the actual operations we conduct? Or the compensation and benefits that we get in exchange for our labour?

I joined primarily because of a desire to have a job that had rock solid job stability where I could also feel useful and do my part in promoting global stability and Canada's interests. Now, well primary the pension golden handcuffs. The job stability part hasn't changed, and the feeling useful.... well that fluctuates depending on the circumstances, but is still mostly true. But whether or not I serve past the point where I'm eligible for the pension will depend greatly upon how competitive the CAF's overall compensation remains relative to whatever other opportunities. But at the end of the day I strongly suspect that the whole "won't get posted thing" will be a very strong deciding factor.

Your not getting the point. Personally as a private, corporal and master corporal, I hated parade square drill and parades. Like if I could magically die and resurrect myself after the parades were over, I would.

But a few things struck me. On the 45th anniversary of the Battle of Kapyong for 2VP in Winnipeg, I hated that parade and all the workup. Until we marched off and all those Battle hardened Korean vets of Big Jim Stone's battalion clapped and cheered us on as we marched off. I rarely felt such pride during my career. I saw those old men with suits and ties wearing the Beret with Patricia cap badges, I felt a connection with the past of 2VP. The history. The tradition. Its probably the first time it really drove home what all this "traditional nonsense" (not to me now) really means.

My last regiment, Foresters, when we were presented our new colours with AFGHANISTAN now added, it really drove another point home as to the importance of these traditions, parades and honouring the link to the past. The cap badge, colours, the uniform, etc involves lots of blood, sweat and tears. Respect it and honour it.

I have also seen drill as a very useful tool for keeping large number of troops organized and to move about (especially recruits and battle school candidates).

If you can't keep in step, swing arms breast pocket high and keep your head up, how the hell can I trust you to watch your arcs, take up proper fire positions and pass along exact hand signals on a recce or fighting patrol? I can't.


You don't get it. I don't care if you think I am out of date dinosaur or a has been.

 

[Brad Sallows]

A lot more time could be saved by streamlining administration than by reducing drill to essentials. However, by all means focus 90% of effort where the smallest gains might be made.

 

[Booter]

The question for me is what you would replace drill with- and “more weapons drills” etc is not a useful answer- there is a ceiling to reps in a certain period of time before you aren’t getting quality return on your investment. Drill creates another place for a steady amount of pressure- you learn better with minor discomfort and pressure. Basic training has to feature adaptation and cognitive strain- and a minor level of discomfort all the way through it. Drill assists in those goals. I’m open to a replacement if it can be demonstrated to keep pressure, minor discomfort, on the candidates- and presently not enough time is dedicated to the subject- so reducing drill to increase “x” pays off

 

[btrudy]

If you can't keep in step, swing arms breast pocket high and keep your head up, how the hell can I trust you to watch your arcs, take up proper fire positions and pass along exact hand signals on a recce or fighting patrol? I can't.

Because those are two separate skills, trained and practiced separately. The one does not lead to the other. Training someone to march in step doesn't make them better at watching arcs or taking up proper fire positions, etc, nor would training them on those combat skills make them better at marching up and down the parade square.

Sharp drill is a reflection of how much time has been allocated towards getting someone good at drill. Not about any of those other things that are actually important. If you want them to be good at those skills, then focus your training efforts on those skills.

The question for me is what you would replace drill with- and “more weapons drills” etc is not a useful answer- there is a ceiling to reps in a certain period of time before you aren’t getting quality return on your investment. Drill creates another place for a steady amount of pressure- you learn better with minor discomfort and pressure. Basic training has to feature adaptation and cognitive strain- and a minor level of discomfort all the way through it. Drill assists in those goals. I’m open to a replacement if it can be demonstrated to keep pressure, minor discomfort, on the candidates- and presently not enough time is dedicated to the subject- so reducing drill to increase “x” pays off

Shortening the training cycle is something they're already looking into doing. Increasing the throughput of CFLRS by spending less time on things which are less critical / less applicable to the CAF as a whole instead of just the army is definitely something that would be beneficial.

 

[Brad Sallows]

pressure, minor discomfort, on the candidates

This is usually overlooked. Part of at least the earliest couple of weeks is essentially denial of opportunities to relax, even very brief ones. As soon as weapons lessons enter the syllabus, the question of picking them up, putting them down, marching, standing, saluting, etc all enter the arena. The alternative is: "on your own time" - "pick up", "move to the right", "walk", "stop", "put down your weapon and salute", etc.

 

[Infanteer]

Normally I agree with about 90-95% of what you post.

Not sure where you stand on this issue. May I ask some questions
1. In your opinion, Does drill (including arms drill) belong universally in recruit training?
2. As above, do you feel drill should be taught above to recruits?
3. If drill should be taught (but not at recruit training), when should it be taught?
4. What other aspects of BMQ/BMOQ do you feel is useless or a hinderance to skills progression?

Two issues at play here. How much ceremonial drill is universal (eg. should be taught at recruit training) and how much ceremonial drill should be retained by the CAF?

As to the first issue, and for your first and second questions, off the top of my head I'm inclined to agree with Remius' previous post. It's enough to move around, look "military," and be proud in front of mom and dad or the city alderman if that's what makes one happy. This also covers 95% of what the CAF needs. While this can satisfy a military culture factor, let's not lie to ourselves and argue that it has anything to do with operational effectiveness.

If you are being serious, drill on BMQ could easily be limited to attention, stand at ease/easy, marching, halting, saluting and turning at the halt. Adding basic rifle drill isn’t that hard after that given that order arms is gone.

The other issue is the TP has time constraints for things. Like a 40 min period on marching that litteraly can take 5 mins to teach. Or a 40 min period on how to salute with a rifle that can take far less time to instruct.

Once taught, practice can easily be done when moving as a group place to place.

You could remove drill in its entirety from the leadership stream and follow what the Brits do with an all arms drill training wing that focuses on those that need it.

For question 3, pretty much do as we do now - train as we need it. I never learned sword drill, funeral movements, or a feu de joie on Basic, we pulled out the manual and practiced it if required.

Question 4 is beyond the scope of this thread.

The second issue highlights the larger question. It isn't "should we train soldiers to do complicated ceremonial drill" but rather "why are we making soldiers do complicated ceremonial drill?" I do think there is a culture change aspect to this as I find many of the events with elaborate ceremonies requiring drill are vanity projects for senior leaders and/or likely wasting public funds ("hey, I'm handing over command of a formation, so let's get 800 soldiers to practice drill for a week and stand around to recognize this!"). If we are doing something in a public/semi-public environment, we need to ask two questions (1) why are we doing this? and (2) will doing this in a more simple format reduce the time the troops spend on this and still achieve the intended effect?

If we asked these questions and put some thought into the answers, we could probably scrap half of the drill and ceremony manual.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Meh, just leave new enrollees to their own devices.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

I think drill has a place on recruit training, and a graduation parade is a fairly simple way for the graduates and their families to see how they have changed. When I was staff at Meaford the QL3 graduation parade for the RCR soldiers was very impressive, but I wonder how much time we added to the course with the rehearsals? Still, it seemed important to them?

In early 2000 I was part of a board that was tasked with reducing QL 2 and QL 3 Infantry for Reservists down to eight weeks from 12 (to fit in a summer). One of the things we cut was all drill at Slow Time. Saved us some periods of instruction and the graduates that summer looked the same as the other QL3 courses that had done the full drill package on their QL2 before the summer.

I think we could keep rifle drill so any member of the CAF can be on a parade at some point with weapons, including their graduation parade, but I also think we should ruthlessly remove ceremonial drill events. Remembrance Day and funerals should be it. Drop Guards of Honour and Changes of Command/Appointment. You can do an effective Change of Command parade in a theatre with everyone comfortably seated and actually listening (maybe) to the speeches.

I hope the OP has a good course!

 

[Remius]

I think drill has a place on recruit training, and a graduation parade is a fairly simple way for the graduates and their families to see how they have changed. When I was staff at Meaford the QL3 graduation parade for the RCR soldiers was very impressive, but I wonder how much time we added to the course with the rehearsals? Still, it seemed important to them?

In early 2000 I was part of a board that was tasked with reducing QL 2 and QL 3 Infantry for Reservists down to eight weeks from 12 (to fit in a summer). One of the things we cut was all drill at Slow Time. Saved us some periods of instruction and the graduates that summer looked the same as the other QL3 courses that had done the full drill package on their QL2 before the summer.

I alluded to that earlier. And you are correct. Basic drill is all that is required.

I think we could keep rifle drill so any member of the CAF can be on a parade at some point with weapons, including their graduation parade, but I also think we should ruthlessly remove ceremonial drill events. Remembrance Day and funerals should be it. Drop Guards of Honour and Changes of Command/Appointment.

Yes. Changes of command should be something far less involved. I can agree with that. The purpose was so that that troops could see and meet their new CO. With social media and internet now that isn’t difficult.

Dropping honour guards will never happen. It’s part of protocol and diplomacy etc etc. If a head of state or dignitary visits we’ll still have to put on a show.

Realistically you can pretty much leave all formation and drill in the Pam as at some point you might need it. But it’s the when and why. Like it or not we will be called on to connect with the community in some way or another (flag parties and guards at football games etc etc).

You can do an effective Change of Command parade in a theatre with everyone comfortably seated and actually listening (maybe) to the speeches.

I hope the OP has a good course!

 

[Castus]

If only Canada took creation of combat forces as seriously as it does drill & ceremonial…

We take neither drill and ceremony nor combat forces seriously. Both have been on the decline for quite some time.

Dropping honour guards will never happen. It’s part of protocol and diplomacy etc etc. If a head of state or dignitary visits we’ll still have to put on a show.

Fortunately, for things such as Quarter Guards, the drill is quite simple. If you teach recruits to do basic rifle drill (present, shoulder etc...) they can do a Quarter Guard, which is enough for most dignitaries.

 

[OldSolduer]

Its a good thing we haven't mentioned bayonets......

 

[daftandbarmy]

Its a good thing we haven't mentioned bayonets swords .....

I know you were just trying not to confuse us, but I FTFY anyways

 

[OldSolduer]

I know you were just trying not to confuse us, but I FTFY anyways

Oh I meant bayonets.... FIX!!!

 

[Rifleman62]

It is Guards of Honour in Canada not Honour Guards.

Quarter Guards is a good fix for the CF as mounting a 100 or 50 person Guards of Honour would be a problem scouring the land for the bodies. Unless it was all composed of Officers at NDHQ.

 

[CountDC]

It is Guards of Honour in Canada not Honour Guards.

Quarter Guards is a good fix for the CF as mounting a 100 or 50 person Guards of Honour would be a problem scouring the land for the bodies. Unless it was all composed of Officers at NDHQ.

Now I learned something new or forgotten.

I am thinking a 100 person guard would be hard these days unless they grabbed them from Reg F and Full time Reserves. Saw a reserve unit a few years back that couldn't get a small 20 something man pool for a Freedom of the City parade out of over 200 on strength. At least until they threatened to put all the full time staff on the parade. I suspect the Ops WO did some arm wringing and threatening of people looking for summer tasks/courses.

 

[quadrapiper]

Unless it was all composed of Officers at NDHQ.

Which would be an interesting adaptation of the tradition. Commissioned? Posted to Ottawa? Best buff up on your sword drill.

 

[Kilted]

I alluded to that earlier. And you are correct. Basic drill is all that is required.

Yes. Changes of command should be something far less involved. I can agree with that. The purpose was so that that troops could see and meet their new CO. With social media and internet now that isn’t difficult.

Dropping honour guards will never happen. It’s part of protocol and diplomacy etc etc. If a head of state or dignitary visits we’ll still have to put on a show.

Realistically you can pretty much leave all formation and drill in the Pam as at some point you might need it. But it’s the when and why. Like it or not we will be called on to connect with the community in some way or another (flag parties and guards at football games etc etc).

I've seen Change of Command parades done both ways. Super simple inside unit lines and extravagant affairs that normally double as a Trooping of the Colours or a Freedom of the City Parade. I can't comment on the way that the Reg Force does a Change of Command parade, but with the reserves, they are often a major public affairs effort, sometimes including the closure of main roads so that the unit can actually march through the city. Now, do all change of command parades have to happen this way, no, of course not. But units should still consider how they are engaged in their recruiting area, for example, how many in their community actually know that they have a militia regiment?

 

[dapaterson]

Which would be an interesting adaptation of the tradition. Commissioned? Posted to Ottawa? Best buff up on your sword drill.

As an officer on the Army staff, I was once and only once tagged for a guard; the fundamental perversity of the universe meant it was on my directorate's range day.