NLD General Peter van Uhm TED Speech on YouTube

[Sythen]

TV, respectfully I disagree.  Every IED found and disarmed, every school we built, etc. meant that we did some good.  Whether that will stay in the physical sense is up for debate, but when someone notices that it doesn't always have to be "that way", we would have made our mark.

The thing is, the IED's would not be there if we were not. They add evil by planting these things, and we remove evil by getting rid of them. At no time is any good added. I have never built a school in my life, but if I did I don't think a gun would do much in the building process, unless you count that guy who lost his hand hammering a nail with a 50cal round. The guns simply are there to protect those building. The guns add nothing but the threat of death to those would would try to stop it.

 

[armyvern]

The thing is, the IED's would not be there if we were not. They add evil by planting these things, and we remove evil by getting rid of them. At no time is any good added. I have never built a school in my life, but if I did I don't think a gun would do much in the building process, unless you count that guy who lost his hand hammering a nail with a 50cal round. The guns simply are there to protect those building. The guns add nothing but the threat of death to those would would try to stop it.

IEDs may not be here if we were not, but, if we were not here, they'd simply still be executing women and other innocents in stadiums; there'd be no music wafting through the air, no kids actually playing and having fun, no girls in school etc etc etc.

Good not added by the presence of our boots and guns on the ground? That's just your opinion; apparently you and I have very different opinions  on what is "good". Those boots and guns were certainly enablers.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Good not added by the presence of our boots and guns on the ground? That's just your opinion; apparently you and I have very different opinions  on what is "good". Those boots and guns were certainly enablers.

Maybe it's more the difference between first- and second-order effects of the gun?

Just wanted to add a quick metaphor, since I like hearing myself type, for those who don't get what I mean. If there's a river flowing, and I build a dam, it doesn't create land, it merely prevents the water from inhabiting that area. What others choose to do with that land, be it cultivating it and making it able to grow food, or build a school, or even just leaving it to nature and it eventually evolves into something different. Yet no matter what happens, I have prevented that water from rendering the land unusable.

Without the dam, you never get the chance to use the land under the water, no?

 

[armyvern]

Maybe it's more the difference between first- and second-order effects of the gun?

If we had no guns here, we'd be headless and beamed on the internet. Google it. They are good.   ;D

 

[Sythen]

IEDs may not be here if we were not, but, if we were not here, they'd simply still be executing women and other innocents in stadiums; there'd be no music wafting through the air, no kids actually playing and having fun, no girls in school etc etc etc.

Good not added by the presence of our boots and guns on the ground? That's just your opinion; apparently you and I have very different opinions  on what is "good". Those boots and guns were certainly enablers.

I don't disagree that if we were not there, the Afghan people would not be as well of. When I kill a Taliban fighter, I don't bring back anyone who was executed, I don't create music and I don't send girls to school. I remove that which prevents these things from happening. That is the point. I do not add anything good when I kill someone. I remove something bad, which is a totally different thing.

I don't want to get in to a discussion which will end me with me telling you to go kill a man, and tell me how good it feels. Good can come from certain elements being removed, but the removal of those elements is still an act/threat of killing. All the things you mentioned happen every day in Canada, and to bring it back to the speech by the General, when that rifle came out.. Its true, everyone sort of held their breath. People in western nations are uncomfortable around guns, and with good reason. Guns can never add good, only remove evil.

 

[Sythen]

Without the dam, you never get the chance to use the land under the water, no?

And if the land isn't tended to, and becomes a desert is it any better off?

 

[The Bread Guy]

And if the land isn't tended to, and becomes a desert is it any better off?

Depending on the land in question, I guess it becomes like a lottery - buying tickets brings you from impossible to improbable.  Without the lottery tickets/dam, though, you remain in the impossible zone.

You are right about the will to 1)  keep the land unflooded, and 2)  the will to do something useful with the land.

 

[HItorMiss]

I'm with TV on this

In the 12 years I have been in the CF I have never done a "good" thing. I have however sought out and removed "evil" from the world with extreme prejudice. I have never built a school (tho I did help remove one being used as an C&C node) I have never handed out food, water or blankets or even very much good will. What I have done is stand in front of the encroaching darkness and hold it at bay and I would like to think maybe pushed it back a little by using extreme amounts of violence and by definition violence is never a "good" thing but often times a necessary one.

Maybe it's a glass half full\half empty sort of argument....

 

[armyvern]

I'm with TV on this

In the 12 years I have been in the CF I have never done a "good" thing. I have however sought out and removed "evil" from the world with extreme prejudice. I have never built a school (tho I did help remove one being used as an C&C node) I have never handed out food, water or blankets or even very much good will. What I have done is stand in front of the encroaching darkness and hold it at bay and I would like to think maybe pushed it back a little by using extreme amounts of violence and by definition violence is never a "good" thing but often times a necessary one.

Maybe it's a glass half full\half empty sort of argument....

Well, I haven't built a school either, but I have volunteered my time in an orphanage while deployed, worked to raise funds for that orphanage and other charitable organizations in that country ... oh, and in this country too by our females here in October; $6000.00 buckaroos US BTW which will go far at that school.

That's it Canada; apparently, there's only truely "good" works done in peacekeeping missions. Wow. Never thought I'd say that.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Maybe it's a glass half full\half empty sort of argument....

Maybe more chicken vs. egg - you can't have the good without the keeping evil away.

 

[muskrat89]

Remember, the General's audience. He wasn't speaking to soldiers; he was talking to civilians. Outdoor writers have this conundrum all the time - hunters "kill" animals, we don't "harvest" them, or "take" them. Some say we should not be apologists for what we do. Others say we don't win any hearts and minds in the non-hunting public by displaying a lack of sensitivity. The General I believe was making a metaphorical point to his audience - without "that" tool, or similar ones, soldiers could not bring about the intended end state - peace and stability. A good speaker tailors his/her message to the audience. I think its a bit disingenuous to crticicize the semantics of his message without considering what he was trying to convey, and to whom.

 

[HItorMiss]

That's it Canada; apparently, there's only truely "good" works done in peacekeeping missions. Wow. Never thought I'd say that.

I never said good wasn't being done in Afghanistan, simply I had never done any or had the time to do any in my deployments, and that those on the direct combat end of the deployment are not doing good by my mind set.

 

[armyvern]

I never said good wasn't being done in Afghanistan, simply I had never done any or had the time to do any in my deployments, and that those on the direct combat end of the deployment are not doing good by my mind set.

No worries BulletMagnet, I have just mailed off my certified cheque for membership to the NDP after coming to this huge revelation.  ;D

Although, in my defence, before having seen the light and deciding to become a card-carrying member, I'd have argued that each and every time you utilized "extreme amounts of violence" in the execution of your duties while closing with and destroying this particular enemy --- you certainly did accomplish much in the way of effecting "the greater good" for mankind in a very deliberate and calculated manner.

 

[vonGarvin]

I see "doing Good" as the immediate effect of an act.  That's what I mean.  And yes, it's a good thing (small "g") that we are there, and Good (capital "G") is the result.  But I don't like messages being dressed up is all.  Because the immediate effect of an assault rifle being used in its intended role is severe trauma to a person, often resulting in death.

That's all.

 

[vonGarvin]

No worries BulletMagnet, I have just mailed off my certified cheque for membership to the NDP after coming to this huge revelation.  ;D

:rofl:

 

[Harris]

Good is in the eye(s) of the beholder I submit BM.  Did you never smile or give a friendly wave to an Afghan adult or child?  Surely you purchased goods from the local market which enabled the owner to provide for his family.  IMO that counts as good.  Hopefully enough simple gestures like that from enough of us would eventually contribute to those Afghans hoping for a better future.  Even hope is good in my books.  "Goodness" doesn't always have to be the cure for cancer.  The little things count too.

 

[HItorMiss]

At least the NDP will have some one with some common sense and a head grounded in the real world.... 

I would agree that I stood for a good thing and a good principal but I never did good myself, Though I stood in support of the good works being done...

Really it is a muddy philosophical debate to have and I do love a well thought out debate


Harris,

Honest answer in 03-04 yes, after that no not ever... 06 was a different monster not a great deal of locals aound for the TICs, and in 09 I had no contact with locals at all other then in the execution of my duties and then no I never smiled nor talked with them, I did what I was there to do and left.

 

[Harris]

Seen.  It's unfortunate that you feel that you didn't do good.  I think you did.  Allow me to thank you for sacrificing so that people like me could do our jobs in safety.  I was outside the wire every day, but not in a role similar to yours and I was able to do some good as my freedom of movement/action was provided by guys like you.

 

[bossi]

Remember, the General's audience. He wasn't speaking to soldiers; he was talking to civilians. Outdoor writers have this conundrum all the time - hunters "kill" animals, we don't "harvest" them, or "take" them. Some say we should not be apologists for what we do. Others say we don't win any hearts and minds in the non-hunting public by displaying a lack of sensitivity. The General I believe was making a metaphorical point to his audience - without "that" tool, or similar ones, soldiers could not bring about the intended end state - peace and stability. A good speaker tailors his/her message to the audience. I think its a bit disingenuous to crticicize the semantics of his message without considering what he was trying to convey, and to whom.

Exactly.

Doing "good" includes deterrence (i.e. warning off, scaring off, or killing off bad guys ... or preventing "evil")

Notice also how the General gave full credit for those Allies who came and did good in the NL:
... I was gripped by the stories of the Allied soldiers.
Soldiers who left the safety of their own homes and risked their lives to liberate a
country and a people they did not know.
It was then, that I decided I would take up the gun.
Out of respect and gratitude for those men who came to liberate us.
From the awareness that, sometimes, only the gun stands between good and evil.
That is why I took up the gun.

He did good with his speech, and he was wonderful for reminding the audience about the troops.
(as opposed to how VAC is screwing over our own vets)

 

[PanaEng]

I was going to say something deep and use more metaphors but got distracted by work... ;-)
1st - as an engineer, I have to say that a dam creates a lake not land - a dyke  would create the land out of a shallow lake, estuary or flood plain;
2nd - a gun is indeed and instrument of killing (first order effect as alluded earlier)
3rd - a gun is indeed and instrument of peace as it can create the conditions for it to develop (second order...)

So, lets not get short sighted, argue about the details of what a gun represent to each one of us  and misinterpret what he was getting at: argue for better tools to do our jobs by highlighting the contributions we have and can make to society.

Chimo!