Next Gen Weapons Program finally public awareness into its stupidity.

[Navy_Pete]

@daftandbarmy I think we are in violent agreement?

Even as a gangly engineering cube farm type after a day at the range I can get a pretty tight 300m grouping on a C7 from prone/kneeling, and then not touch it again for another year. I'm sure with practice at close quarters with the pop up targets I could become reasonably competent, but would expect the initial learning curve to be ugly and would happy to hit a pop up target within 50m at the start without giving them enough time to kill me first.

On the flamethrower line there was a BBC program where they got a bunch of combat engineers to build one of the german trench clearing ones from WW1 or 2. THey were all super excited until they built one and realized how effectively horrifying it would be, and then collectively agreed they never wanted to use one on people.

 

[ArmyRick]

To be honest (I spent A LOT of time teaching small arms and running ranges for SQ/Infantry candidates), Small arms refresher for EVERYONE in the CAF shouldn't be a big deal.

IMO, in prone, properly zero'd C7, everyone (I mean everyone) should be able to hit a man size target at 300m, no excuses. Good coaching and competent instructors are needed. Once achieve that, then you can do snap shoots, watch and shoot, etc. Firing in Kneeling and standing, get it down at 100m. For non-combat arms, not as needed to fire kneeling at ranges beyond 100m.

The PWT3 run down is a good gateway for everyone I think (Yes, the run down from 400m down to 25m is actually achievable for every one)

CQB shooting, a day (for the non combat arms) with intro shooting with your C7/C8 and pistol is a good refresher.

Again, good competent instructors/range staff can make a day at the range very useful. Or if you have idots, it can make it a waste of tax dollars.

 

[ArmyRick]

If I ruled the world, in CAF basic training, jungle lanes and pairs fire and movement would be mandatory for everyone, as well as an intro to CQB shooting.

 

[Navy_Pete]

If I ruled the world, in CAF basic training, jungle lanes and pairs fire and movement would be mandatory for everyone, as well as an intro to CQB shooting.

But when would you learn to lash a raft together or build a tripod?

That would be both useful and fun I think, as long as you had competent instructors and absolute standards for weapons handling. There are a few people that "passed" our BOTP weapons handling that that should have just been on weapons free basic with the padres as they were terrifying. One of the few times in my life I thought I might die was on the range seeing a rifle barrel with rounds in the magazine mid shoot turn in my general direction from someone with arms too short to control it. Most of the folks on the line just downed tools and took a half dozen steps back until they were done. No idea why social workers get weapons handling.

 

[GR66]

No idea why social workers get weapons handling.

Because you have no idea when Spetsnaz might strike the MFRC!

 

[OldSolduer]

Because you have no idea when Spetsnaz might strike the MFRC!

Everyone in the CAF has the responsibility to protect themselves in war. That’s why.

 

[ArmyRick]

But when would you learn to lash a raft together or build a tripod?

That would be both useful and fun I think, as long as you had competent instructors and absolute standards for weapons handling. There are a few people that "passed" our BOTP weapons handling that that should have just been on weapons free basic with the padres as they were terrifying. One of the few times in my life I thought I might die was on the range seeing a rifle barrel with rounds in the magazine mid shoot turn in my general direction from someone with arms too short to control it. Most of the folks on the line just downed tools and took a half dozen steps back until they were done. No idea why social workers get weapons handling.

That person needs remedial training and put back on the ranges. Until they get it right.

These shooting skills are very basic and everyone (except like the padres) must have a minimum level of skill

 

[Navy_Pete]

That person needs remedial training and put back on the ranges. Until they get it right.

These shooting skills are very basic and everyone (except like the padres) must have a minimum level of skill

I don't disagree, and neither did the range instructors, or weapon handling instructors or standards... but you know, CAF is going to CAF.

It was almost 20 years ago now, and reasonably certain they never (hopefully) touched a rifle again, and had zero impact on their ability to do their job. Why they aren't a civilian job, I have no idea, but maybe for some trades those 'soldier first' requirements don't make sense as a core trade requirements (but may apply for specific jobs/deployments I guess).

Good candidate to lead from the front though!

 

[ArmyRick]

"CAF is going to CAF" I feel ya.... Its frustrating. Within our skills I think we all experience the CAF knows best effect

 

[KevinB]

Honestly everyone should be able to hit a Head target at 300m easily on a KD range from the prone with a C7/C8. It’s doable at 400 and 500m with a C8CQB, so 300m should be a bare minimum.

Personally I think most weapons programs outside of SOF entities fail due to a lack of physical exertion and stress in training and courses of fire.

Generally you will see highly trained ‘blooded’ troops see a significant degradation in accuracy in combat. For those who are less skilled and less experienced it’s much worse.

I’d incorporate some CrossFit exercises into a weapons practice with limited exposure, movers and small targets. As well stress shooting in unconventional and unsupported positions.

 

[dapaterson]

The CAF needs more rounds per person annually, with more free play to become more comfortable, and more, better coaching, and then, once the baseline is raised, further investment is needed for the infantry.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The CAF needs more rounds per person annually, with more free play to become more comfortable, and more, better coaching, and then, once the baseline is raised, further investment is needed for the infantry.

It's even better when the Service Battalion's female Private soldier outshoots all the combat arms

1988 WILLS, Shannon * Private 12 (VAN) Service Battn (MMM CD)

* First Woman in the Commonwealth to Win the Queen’s Medal; MMM 2011 as a Captain.

https://www.blatherwick.net/documents/Canadian%20Orders%20Decorations%20and%20Medals%206/009%20-%20Queen%27s%20-%20King%27s%20Medal%20for%20the%20Champion%20Shot%20Canadian%20Forces..pdf

 

[KevinB]

It's even better when the Service Battalion's female Private soldier outshoots all the combat arms

1988 WILLS, Shannon * Private 12 (VAN) Service Battn (MMM CD)

* First Woman in the Commonwealth to Win the Queen’s Medal; MMM 2011 as a Captain.

https://www.blatherwick.net/documents/Canadian%20Orders%20Decorations%20and%20Medals%206/009%20-%20Queen%27s%20-%20King%27s%20Medal%20for%20the%20Champion%20Shot%20Canadian%20Forces..pdf

Her family was just a little into shooting too.
It definitely wasn’t the CAF that trained her to shoot.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I do a fair bit of shooting on my own time. Ranging anywhere from .22LR to 45-70 and .12ga. I just enjoy spending time working up loads and becoming proficient in my own firearms. I have a weird passion for .303Br Loads and Lee Enfields.

Our problem in the CAF is we view shooting the same as any other serial on a DAG sheet. The vast vast majority of the CAF is lucky if they see the range once a year for a half a day. Where they receive pitiful coaching and a failure has no real repercussion.

Just like physical fitness shooting is something that perishes without practice. I would love to see CAF ranges, with supplied coaches and RSOs, open 3 afternoons a week for folks just to come and get comfortable shooting. I think 99.99% of failures and bad habits can be fixed right there. "Here's a can of .223 try out the different shooting positions and plink away getting comfortable around the feel, sound and smell."

We also should scour our organization for people who are competent coaches and employ them properly. Regardless of trade. I know some excellent shooters and coaches who aren't Boatswains or Combat Arms and their knowledge and know how could go a long way to helping. FYI Im not talking about me, I am no coach. I tried coaching my daughters mini Rugby last year and I hated every minute of it lol

 

[KevinB]

There is a big difference between teaching combat shooting and marksmanship.
But ideally the fundamentals comes first - as it’s a lot easier to teach an accurate shooter to be faster, than teach accuracy and positioning to someone who already wants to dump a mag as fast as they can.

Reactive targets are a necessity, and not simply drop when hit targets - but targets that require a variety of different numbers of impacts and in certain areas of the target, and multiple targets - to teach a shooter to shoot to stop and quickly engage the next.

 

[Halifax Tar]

There is a big difference between teaching combat shooting and marksmanship.
But ideally the fundamentals comes first - as it’s a lot easier to teach an accurate shooter to be faster, than teach accuracy and positioning to someone who already wants to dump a mag as fast as they can.

Reactive targets are a necessity, and not simply drop when hit targets - but targets that require a variety of different numbers of impacts and in certain areas of the target, and multiple targets - to teach a shooter to shoot to stop and quickly engage the next.

That's exactly what I am going for. And that accuracy can't be established until we make people comfortable shooting. There was a time most young men joining the CAF had carried a gun before they joined, now I have to wager thats an extreme minority for the folks joining up.

Put a a gun in their hands and feed it ammo until they are good and comfortable.

Comfort -> Marksmanship -> Gun Fighter Course

 

[ArmyRick]

That's exactly what I am going for. And that accuracy can't be established until we make people comfortable shooting. There was a time most young men joining the CAF had carried a gun before they joined, now I have to wager thats an extreme minority for the folks joining up.

Put a a gun in their hands and feed it ammo until they are good and comfortable.

Comfort -> Marksmanship -> Gun Fighter Course

One of the biggest obstacles, is the CAF not taking shooting seriously.

It was scary when Dallas Alexander (Former Assaulter JTF2) on the Shawn Ryan podcast says "They place more importance on attending woke sensitivity training...and took away from range time" or words to that effect.

This reflects the attitude of the CAF from what I see.

 

[Halifax Tar]

One of the biggest obstacles, is the CAF not taking shooting seriously.

 

[OldSolduer]

One of the biggest obstacles, is the CAF not taking shooting seriously.

Many years ago when the earth was cooling (apparently its heating up again) in the 70s it was not much different. Ditto the 80s, 90s etc. Lather, rinse, repeat.
AND yes we in the 90s had valuable training and range time taken by SHARP training etc.

 

[ArmyRick]

The military is just not as important as soooo many other things....until you desperately need it, and then its usually too late.

Canadians are some of the worst for living a sheltered and safe bubble.