• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

News: 15 Mar 2019 Christchurch NZ Mosque Shootings

Honest question, do you think white nationalisim (in terms of violence or violent extremism ) is worse than Islamic extremism or violent religious extremism?
 
Jarnhamar said:
Honest question, do you think white nationalisim (in terms of violence or violent extremism ) is worse than Islamic extremism or violent religious extremism?
Click to expand...

Absolutely not. But it’s the one that’s much more ‘here’. It’s the one that we as a western culture have a hell of a lot more ownership of. This is where I expect everyone who spouts off about wanting moderate Muslims to speak up and ‘do something’ about their radicals to awkwardly step off and shut up unless they’re going to put their money where their mouth is and start acting against our own violent radicals. These are the people we grew up with, that we ostracized in school and at work, the weird cousin we don’t talk to, the creepy coworker who says concerning stuff that we don’t speak up about. Now it’s a hell of a lot easier for them to ‘meet’ each other, to communicate, to cross-validate, and to invite each other.

Evil is evil. We just don’t get to pretend it’s always, or even usually, brown guys anymore.
 
Jarnhamar said:
Honest question, do you think white nationalisim (in terms of violence or violent extremism ) is worse than Islamic extremism or violent religious extremism?
Click to expand...
Extremism is extremism. It does appear that white nationalism is on the rise and needs to be eradicated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I'm thinking the same way. I see non-muslims saying moderate Muslims need to step up to the plate and condem extremists more. I'm sure I've said it myself a few times.
But I never see "us" doing that with white shooters/extremists. Well maybr we do in a generic eay but not in the same manner I think we expect Muslims to do it. I kinda find were hipocrites about it.

I think a big part of the problem is that when there's a mass shooting many people in society habbour thoughts that they hope it's white males or Muslims.  A sort of extreme right and left reaction.

New Zealand's gun control views are what I'd like to see in Canada (focuses on strong checks rather than banning certain guns) .
I'm curious about the shooters licence /where he sourced the guns etc..

 
Jarnhamar said:
I'm thinking the same way. I see non-muslims saying moderate Muslims need to step up to the plate and condem extremists more. I'm sure I've said it myself a few times.
But I never see "us" doing that with white shooters/extremists. Well maybr we do in a generic eay but not in the same manner I think we expect Muslims to do it. I kinda find were hipocrites about it.

I think a big part of the problem is that when there's a mass shooting many people in society habbour thoughts that they hope it's white males or Muslims.  A sort of extreme right and left reaction.

New Zealand's gun control views are what I'd like to see in Canada (focuses on strong checks rather than banning certain guns) .
I'm curious about the shooters licence /where he sourced the guns etc..
Click to expand...
Knew we’d be on same page J. Curious about the Kiwis ‘ firearm laws as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Jarnhamar said:
I'm thinking the same way. I see non-muslims saying moderate Muslims need to step up to the plate and condem extremists more. I'm sure I've said it myself a few times.
But I never see "us" doing that with white shooters/extremists. Well maybr we do in a generic eay but not in the same manner I think we expect Muslims to do it. I kinda find were hipocrites about it.

I think a big part of the problem is that when there's a mass shooting many people in society habbour thoughts that they hope it's white males or Muslims.  A sort of extreme right and left reaction.

New Zealand's gun control views are what I'd like to see in Canada (focuses on strong checks rather than banning certain guns) .
I'm curious about the shooters licence /where he sourced the guns etc..
Click to expand...

Jarnhamar, I feel like I had to defend Muslims and state we do denounce it and stand against extremism.

But now, I have immense pleasure in telling you that "white folks" do denounce this killing etc and speak up against it.

Here is some proof, a beautiful thing born from tragedy.

Abdullah

P.s I think highlighting the fact that the majority of us are normal is a great reminder during bad times. So if anyone tries to say "white people" dont denounce white extremism I will be the first to counter that voice. Being in the Islamic community I see some actions far more then others, so I am happy to say many white folks stand with solidarity with Muslims or well any oppressed people.
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20190315-174429_Facebook.jpg
    Screenshot_20190315-174429_Facebook.jpg
    692 KB · Views: 215
But "white" is a race and Muslim is a religion.

You yourself are "white folk", aren't you? There's white Muslims and brown Christians.

Perhaps one of the first steps to combating white nationalisim is to stop treating Muslims like it's a "race of brown folks"? 

 
Jarnhamar said:
But "white" is a race and Muslim is a religion.

You yourself are "white folk", aren't you? There's white Muslims and brown Christians.

Perhaps one of the first steps to combating white nationalisim is to stop treating Muslims like it's a "race of brown folks"?
Click to expand...

Yes, but people attack Muslims for not denouncing and the discussion was white people and lack of denouncing.

But yeah, I am white, I even wear plaid, a hat and etc.

Maybe though it would help, education usually solves some problems. Issue is a lot of extremists no matter the flavour, are invested deeply into their extreme ideology. I think we are in for it now, even if we start promoting this narrative (which would be wise), it will still take years to take hold. I feel most extremists think in binary terms, those with half a brain can understand the world is more complex. Extremists simply choose to reduce complex subjects to oversimplified talking points and radicalize from there.

Sorry if my thoughts are not coherent right now.

Abdullah
 
Majority of the conflict between Muslims and the west are actually with the Sunni Muslims, I don't lose sleep over the Ismaili mosque that's been down the road for 35 or so years, I do worry about the Gulf funded Sunni Mosques that spring up everywhere and the proliferation of women running around in full niqabs, because those people don't mix well with others and when their numbers are small they aren't a problem, but eventually that will change. Also within the Sunnis you have Sufi's, Safi's and other branches of belief and interpretation.
The number of radicals may be smallish, but a small percentage of 1.6 billion people is still a large number. The US is on it's way to have more Muslims than Malaysia.

As for White Supremacists, the numbers are even smaller, there is perhaps 5,000 KKK in the US with a smattering of other groups maybe pushing that number over 10,000.

Attacks on house of worships have effected not only mosques, but churches as well.

  https://www.trtworld.com/asia/the-times-that-mosques-have-been-attacked-and-turned-into-slaughterhouses-24973

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/27/asia/philippines-church-explosion/index.html?fbclid=IwAR1Zd8uyi7uGKzXzW_KvU_ptOzL6BXGPdcxqfLL5tOM6LyxkcFzvFTKnghg

https://www.news24.com/Africa/News/major-attacks-against-egypts-christians-20181103

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2018/april/nigeria-fulani-attack-catholic-church-benue-boko-haram.html

 
Latest from NZ police (as of ~2200 EDT last night) ...
UPDATE 12 - Christchurch terror attack
Saturday, 16 March 2019 - 3:05pm

Please attribute to Police Commissioner Mike Bush

Police have a number of key priorities as we continue to work in response to the Christchurch terror attacks.

Our priority is public safety, not just in Christchurch but nationally. We have deployed staff right across the country.

Our other key priority is making sure that those people so horribly affected by these events get the support and welfare that they need.

Our investigation will focus on what unfolded and how it unfolded, and to answer the many questions people will have.

We also want to ensure that all our staff and responders get every support possible.

I want to acknowledge the leaders from all of the agencies involved, including Canterbury District Commander Superintendent John Price who has led the local response.

I also want to acknowledge St John, Fire and Emergency New Zealand, Civil Defence, NZDF, Victim Support, Christchurch City Council and the other agencies working so closely together.

One offender, a 28-year-old male, has been charged with one count of murder. He has been remanded to the High Court to reappear on 5 April. Any further charges he will face will be determined by the ongoing investigation.

There are many, many victims of this tragic event and we are giving every possible support to them.

I also want to thank all of the religious leaders and Imams who have travelled here to give their support to those who have been affected.

ENDS

Issued by Police Media Centre
Click to expand...

Lots of ongoing Radio New Zealand (RNZ) coverage here.

Some highlights ...
And what mass tragedy would be complete without the "false flag" accusation?  :facepalm:
"Limbaugh Floats "False Flag" Theory NZ Shooter Is "Leftist" Who Staged Attack To Frame Conservatives" (zerohedge.com)

And finally, Charles Adler's take (2 min audio commentary).
 
Jarnhamar said:
New Zealand's gun control views are what I'd like to see in Canada (focuses on strong checks rather than banning certain guns).
I'm curious about the shooters licence /where he sourced the guns etc..
Click to expand...
According to some media reports the guns were all legal to own, legally obtained and he was licensed.  The NZ PM has stated "our gun laws will change".
 
Naeem Rashid, and Abdul Aziz. These are two names we have to remember and honour.

Naeem Rashid was the man seen tackling the shooter at the Al Noor mosque, knocking him over, and being shot several times while doing so. He died in hospital from his wounds. He moved to Nee Zealand from Pakistan, and was a teacher in NZ.

Abdul Aziz confronted the shooter at the Linwood mosque and was able to distract him and chase him off before he was arrested. Aziz is an Afghan refugee who had lived in Australia for 25 years before moving to New Zealand.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47596816

https://globalnews.ca/news/5063692/hero-new-zealand-mosque-attack/

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/111335681/heroic-worshipper-tackled-gunman-at-linwood-mosque-during-christchurch-terror-attack
 
Colin P said:
https://thenewsrep.com/115359/eco-fascism-makes-its-terrifying-debut-in-new-zealand/?fbclid=IwAR0uZKxCNlIy-kHU9R8mWg-KOPLHbRlGtG0obqYFhIfy9yxvw3y5PWHr_N4
Click to expand...

Further analysis of the 73-page document (downloadable as a PDF here if you want to wade through it) from a range of sources (including some I'm not entirely enamoured with, but include to show s bit of the range):
 
From vox.com an explanation of NZ gun laws:

New Zealand’s gun laws, explained

New Zealand’s gun laws are strict compared to America’s, but there are gaps.

By German Lopez@germanrlopezgerman.lopez@vox.com Updated Mar 15, 2019, 4:54pm EDT

Early Friday morning, 49 people were killed in mass shootings at the Al Noor and Linwood mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand. In the aftermath of this tragedy, there’s a renewed interest in how gun laws work in New Zealand.

And on Friday evening, New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said “our gun laws will change” — referencing, among other possibilities, “a semiautomatic gun ban.”

As it stands, New Zealanders do not have a legal or constitutional right to own guns, and the small island country has strong gun laws relative to the US (as is true for developed nations in general). But the laws have some gaps, particularly when it comes to the registration of firearms and the regulation of semiautomatic weapons. These gaps have led to contentious debates in the country: Some gun owners don’t want tougher laws, while police have come to see the current legal framework as “patchy,” as reported by Stuff, a media company in New Zealand.

New Zealand has more than 1.2 million civilian-owned firearms — about one gun for every four people, according to Small Arms Survey, which provides estimates for gun ownership around the world. That puts the country in the top 20 nations in the world for civilian gun ownership (though still far behind the US, which has more than one gun for every person).

Still, New Zealand generally has very low levels of gun violence — likely due, in part, to its restrictions on firearms. But because of the remaining gaps and Friday’s terrorist attacks, there are already calls, including from the prime minister, to strengthen the country’s laws.

How New Zealand’s gun laws currently work

As the US’s Law Library of Congress explained, New Zealand’s system mainly focuses on licensing, but registration of firearms is not always required.

In New Zealand, people first have to obtain a license to legally purchase, own, and possess a gun. A license applicant is vetted to check for a criminal record, a history of violence, drug and alcohol use, and relationships with potentially dangerous people, among other factors. The applicant also must go through a firearms safety course. That all typically takes months to get through.

Once a person makes it through the process, he’s allowed to purchase guns and ammo — although some types of firearms, like handguns and certain semiautomatic rifles, require “endorsements” from police and separate permits to purchase. There are also extra storage and inspection requirements.

The licenses have to be renewed every 10 years, and police can revoke a person’s license if that person is believed to no longer be fit for ownership and may pose a threat.

Gun sellers are also licensed and regulated by police.

Unlike other licensing systems (such as Massachusetts’s), firearms in New Zealand don’t always have to be registered. This can lead to bizarre circumstances in which a gun only has to be slightly modified to no longer require registration.

Under the law, for instance, some semiautomatic rifles — commonly known as assault weapons — have to be registered as military-style semiautomatic rifles (MSSAs). But as Thomas Manch explained at Stuff, what is required to be registered and what isn’t can often come down to weird technicalities: Just inserting a lower-capacity magazine into an AR-15, an assault rifle, can make the weapon not required to be registered.

It’s also possible to import certain parts meant for MSSAs but for non-MSSA weapons, essentially letting a person modify a non-MSSA gun to become more dangerous, like an MSSA, without having to go through the legal hurdles tied to an MSSA.

Police have long worried that the gaps and loopholes make it easier for the wrong people to obtain and keep firearms. It’s unclear if that’s what happened with the Christchurch shooter, although he did get his guns legally, according to the prime minister.

Despite the concerns, New Zealand’s gun laws haven’t gone through significant changes since a mass shooting led to reforms in 1992. Amendments passed in 2012 did clarify some of the rules around registered assault weapons, but the changes were largely technical and minor.

It remains to be seen whether the push to strengthen the country’s gun laws following the March 15 attacks will be successful.

Gun control works, but it has limits

Stricter gun laws can’t stop all shootings. But the research shows that where there are stronger gun laws, and fewer guns, there are generally fewer gun deaths.

A 2016 review of 130 studies in 10 countries, published in Epidemiologic Reviews, found that new legal restrictions on owning and purchasing guns tended to be followed by a drop in gun violence — a strong indicator that restricting access to guns can save lives. A review of the US evidence by RAND also linked some gun control measures, including background checks, to reduced injuries and deaths.

Laws that require a license to buy and own a gun seem to be particularly effective, based on US studies. In Connecticut, researchers looked at what happened after the state passed a permit-to-purchase law for handguns — finding a 40 percent drop in gun homicides and a 15 percent reduction in handgun suicides. In Missouri, researchers looked at the aftermath of the state repealing its handgun permit-to-purchase law — finding a 23 percent increase in firearm homicides but no significant increase in non-firearm homicides, as well as 16 percent higher handgun suicide rates.

A recent study also found that weaker gun laws and higher levels of gun ownership were correlated with more mass shootings at the state level.

There’s a bit of common sense to this: Every country has bigots, extremists, and criminals, but looser gun laws, like the US’s, make it significantly easier to actually obtain firearms and use them for awful things. To this end, previous empirical analyses have concluded that the US doesn’t have more crime, generally, than other developed nations, but it does have more lethal crime, like murder — in large part thanks to easy access to firearms.

New Zealand, for its part, generally has few gun homicides. According to GunPolicy.org, the entire country had just eight gun homicides in all of 2015 — a rate of 0.18 firearm homicides per 100,000 people. In comparison, the US, which has the loosest gun laws among wealthy nations and far more gun deaths as a result, had nearly 13,000 gun homicides that year — a rate of 4.04 per 100,000.

The mosque shootings on March 15 effectively add up to six years’ worth of gun homicides in New Zealand — a testament to how awful the attacks were, but also to how rare such events are in the country.
Click to expand...

Link


 
Aziz.... must be Pashtun for 'big brass ones'  :salute:

"He gets into his car and I just got the gun and threw it on his window like an arrow and blasted his window," he said.

The windshield shattered: "That's why he got scared."

He said the gunman was cursing at him, yelling that he was going to kill them all. But he drove away and Aziz said he chased the car down the street to a red light, before it made a U-turn and sped away. Online videos indicate police officers managed to force the car from the road and drag out the suspect soon after.

Originally from Kabul, Afghanistan, Aziz said he left as a refugee when he was a boy and lived for more than 25 years in Australia before moving to New Zealand a couple of years ago.

"I've been to a lot of countries and this is one of the beautiful ones," he said. And, he always thought, a peaceful one as well.

Aziz said he didn't feel fear or much of anything when facing the gunman. It was like he was on autopilot. And he believes that God, that Allah, didn't think it was his time to die.

https://www.timescolonist.com/man-who-stood-up-to-mosque-gunman-probably-saved-lives-1.23665817
 
Colin P said:
Majority of the conflict between Muslims and the west are actually with the Sunni Muslims, I don't lose sleep over the Ismaili mosque that's been down the road for 35 or so years, I do worry about the Gulf funded Sunni Mosques that spring up everywhere and the proliferation of women running around in full niqabs, because those people don't mix well with others and when their numbers are small they aren't a problem, but eventually that will change. Also within the Sunnis you have Sufi's, Safi's and other branches of belief and interpretation.
The number of radicals may be smallish, but a small percentage of 1.6 billion people is still a large number. The US is on it's way to have more Muslims than Malaysia.
Click to expand...

Thankful that our society's views here in Canada aren't based on your hunches, intuition, and poor math regarding something different that scares you. Evidenced by the outpouring of grief and solidarity in light of such attacks.
 
ACE_Engineer said:
Thankful that our society's views here in Canada aren't based on your hunches, intuition, and poor math regarding something different that scares you. Evidenced by the outpouring of grief and solidarity in light of such attacks.
Click to expand...

ACE,

There is no way you could know this, but Colin has extensive, first hand, real world experience with Islam. I know enough about him to know that is he no bigot.

Just sayin...
 
SeaKingTacco said:
ACE,

There is no way you could know this, but Colin has extensive, first hand, real world experience with Islam. I know enough about him to know that is he no bigot.

Just sayin...
Click to expand...

Yes, a bit more involved than a thoughts and prayers status update.
 
ACE_Engineer said:
Thankful that our society's views here in Canada aren't based on your hunches, intuition, and poor math regarding something different that scares you. Evidenced by the outpouring of grief and solidarity in light of such attacks.
Click to expand...

For a primer read the other Islam threads Colin posts in.

It is far to easy to attack, but Colin has a very nuanced opinion on Islam.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top