New Rucksack

[Matt_Fisher]

Kev,

You have to realize that I'm somewhat playing the devil's advocate here, and that the discussion is revolved at how DND does procurement business.

Supposedly, before the TDP is finalized and the production is tendered out, that prototype has gone through some sort of trial and been graded as being acceptable.

I think the majority of the complaints should be directed towards the trial procedures, ensuring that there is fair competition of multiple designs, and how an article is graded to be acceptable or not.

Additionally, an incremental improvement program for large-scale purchases of clothing & individual equipment items would also be a smart way to do things, i.e.
Rainsuits:  Instead of tendering an entire 89,000 rainsuits out, break it down so that in the first 3 years, Rainsuit Pattern A has 20,000 tendered and delivered.  From there some sort of survey would be implemented (in addition to the UCR) process, whereby feedback would be taken from those issued the rainsuits.  That data would be collected and interpreted to produce design changes for a Rainsuit Pattern A MkII, of which another 20,000 would be tendered and delivered.  The survey process would repeat with a MkIII which by that point should be the final iteration of rainsuit design for the CFs until industry came up with a major breakthrough in terms of materials development, rather than pattern design, functionality, and fit/wear characteristics.

 

[KevinB]

Dude,  I KNOW you know the system is FUBAR...

I was offering commentary as to how I think the system should be altered.

The trial system in the CF is RTFO, clearly.  It is a demonstratable FACT, as I can list over 50 items that where never serviceable that entered service.

 

[NL_engineer]

Is one of those the LSVW  : or is that 51-60?

 

[deh]

Unfortunately, I don't have a CF ballistic vest or plates to trial, but if anybody does have a vest and plates, maybe we could work something out in regard to doing a T&E report of the Gen III system in regard to how it interfaces with the CF ballistic vest and plates. 

PM sent if you want a vest with plates for a week or two.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

PM sent if you want a vest with plates for a week or two.

Ack,

Actually I was hoping that somebody out there with vests and plates would be willing to do a trial of the Gen III 64 stuff and do a report on it.

 

[Old and Tired]

Matt

I will do up something for you.  I used your ruck with vest and plates in Virginia, plus a couple of other Ex's.  If you can what a little longer I have to do Maple defender with a dismounted company this summer as well.

Like I posted earlier, so far I have no complaints at all wearing the 64 Ruck with a Frag vest and plates.  It does snag a little on the TacVest if you ditch it in a hurry, but I think that's because of the TV design, when I use my Warlord V2 chest rig it's not a problem at all.  I just wish that the original 64 self was available instead of a jury rigged ALICE pack shelf.  It would make carrying radio's a lot easier.

I also used it on winter warfare this year as staff.  Worked out well for that as well, with the complete winter kit list.  It's amazing how much you can cram in the bad.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Is one of those the LSVW  : or is that 51-60?

I hope he doesn't mean me!  :camo:

 

[Soldier1stTradesman2nd]

Matt

I will do up something for you.  I used your ruck with vest and plates in Virginia, plus a couple of other Ex's.  If you can what a little longer I have to do Maple defender with a dismounted company this summer as well.

Like I posted earlier, so far I have no complaints at all wearing the 64 Ruck with a Frag vest and plates.  It does snag a little on the TacVest if you ditch it in a hurry, but I think that's because of the TV design, when I use my Warlord V2 chest rig it's not a problem at all.  I just wish that the original 64 self was available instead of a jury rigged ALICE pack shelf.  It would make carrying radio's a lot easier.

I also used it on winter warfare this year as staff.  Worked out well for that as well, with the complete winter kit list.  It's amazing how much you can cram in the bad.

How did you find the Gen III shoulder straps? I had to put a set of fastex buckles with the split end "quick attach" (looped behind the slide lock) to substitute for the stock strap system. Stock Gen III kept on loosening up every couple of minutes of marching.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Stock Gen III kept on loosening up every couple of minutes of marching.

I appreciate the feedback.  Do you find that with the Side-Release Buckles, you have any issues of the straps continuing to loosen up?

 

[Soldier1stTradesman2nd]

Matt,

The side-release buckles (female "quick attached" behind the stock buckle attached to the nylon loop, male on the lower strap) are holding the tension. The jury-rigged setup is sturdy, is partially hidden behind the stock buckle, and holds the tension without loosening up every so often. Seems the stock buckle is not biting into the nylon strap as well as the small pack replacement/kifaru quick attach side release buckles.

Added bonus to the improvised setup is the option now to ditch the ruck in a hurry with the fastex.

I will post a pic later of the setup.

 

[Soldier1stTradesman2nd]

I know this may detract from the New Rucksack topic at hand. Just to close the loop on the discussion on alternatives to the CTS Ruck. Pics as promised of the improvised CP Gear Gen III shoulder strap tension release strap setup

 

[Pointer]

Any impressions on the new Ruck, either on the bag itself, or the method it was delivered (taught)

PhilB?

My waist buckle broke the first time I used it.

The waist belt, which is supposed to be a crucial component of the system, is largely useless when wearing frag vest and plates.

The molded back is great.... if you're not wearing a frag vest and plates.

The two drainage grommets on the bottom are excellent, as they allow water to seep into the sleeping-kit compartment which feeds into the main compartment.  That being said, there's a dry bag included for your sleeping kit (good), but this doesn't do much for the main compartment (and yes, you should be lining it with a garbage bag or using drybags, but it's still dumb IMO).

The ruck weighs something like 14 pounds empty.

It's way too large to use for mechanized operations.  As the overwhelming majority of our infantry (reg) is mech and the number is growing, this isn't very practical.  It may sound arrogant, but when it comes to designing a rucksack, the needs of the infantry should trump any others as we're the guys (well... the light guys anyway) stuck carrying the thing the most often.

The ruck strikes me as having been designed by (and for) people for whom body armour wasn't even a consideration.  I'm wondering if the air force designed it or something.  And really, who's going to have to use it most often? The combat arms and, amongst them, the infantry.  I'm not sure exactly what their trials consisted of - I thought they trialled it with 3 RCR or PPCLI guys, but I can't imagine half the crap on that rucksack making it past anyone from either unit that didn't just get there from battle school (or, more likely, the Inf Sch )

Not so good for PT, unless you do your ruck marches without body armour. A good ruck for moving kit from one place to another administratively - it certainly packs alot.  I wouldn't mind bringing it camping with me, but I'd much prefer a 64 (or even the last ruck) for military purposes. 

The 18 year old mo armoured guy that briefed and instructed us on the ruck just gave us a blank stare and blew fish kisses at us when everyone started asking "why the hell would they make X like this?" and "what about body armour?" but he may have just been distracted by his super-HSLD CADPAT boots.  Good to blend in when you hop out of the G-Wagon for a pee, I guess.

I've stopped expecting CTS/DLR/whoever to competently design anything beyond a KFS 99% of the time and for Ottawa to make us use their useless crap 100% of the time, lest the emperor's nakedness become apparent. 

 

[Canadian Mind]

After reading all 20 pages of this thread, awesome laughs, and lots of info. Thanks guys.

Has anyone actualy tried Kifaru or Arc'Teryx packs, or any other civvy market packs exlcuding Wheelers GEN III 64 patter along with the CF Issued PPE and Tac vest?

And I'm also curious about how prior incarnations of issued rucks, along with civvy market products, handle with various chest rigs, tac vests, or other load bearing platforms.

 

[ICFY95]

Has anyone tried to acquire ane set up a second set of the aluminum `struts` measured for wearing armour?  We were told that replacement struts were available, and it stands to reason that if the Ruck struts can be matched to your spine contour, then it could be matched to your spine contour with armour...

Could there be a simple fix for this kit by having two sets of the struts for each situation?

My back must be really messed up, because when I am using the ruck (with armour and TV) my back feels better than when I`m marching without it (or with the small pack)

C.

 

[DirtyDog]

My back must be really messed up, because when I am using the ruck (with armour and TV) my back feels better than when I`m marching without it (or with the small pack)

When you say with "armour and TV" do you actually mean with plates in or just an empty frag vest?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Eons ago, while the earth was cooling, we had a basic rule that troops would wear body armour only in cities or built up areas (e.g., Belfast, Londonderry). The usual urban patrol only lasted a couple of hours at the most, and being in an urban area meant that you were more likely to nasty HV and LV projectiles, blast damage etc

In the 'cuds', we would ditch the body armour as we'd be hauling around big bergens with ammo, batteries, rations and other stuff for multi-day operations. The theory was that the mobility, agility, good fieldcraft and tactics imparted by the absence of an armoured strait jacket was enough of a deterrent to keep you safe. Be fast enough to get them before they got you was the idea. I know several guys who were in Rhodesia/South Africa who basically used the same approach.

Is this not a feasible policy these days? Me, being arm-chair--borne now, of course, has no idea. But I am assuming that there must be a high degree of butt covering going into the development of our dress policies on the battlefield these days.

 

[2 Cdo]

I have no experience with the new rucksack but based on over 25 years experience in the army I know that if you build a bigger load carrying device someone higher up will design a kit list to fill said load carrying device! Oftentimes not realising that on operations we carry lots of ammo and water, thus adding even more to the weight load.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

But I am assuming that there must be a high degree of butt covering going into the development of our dress policies on the battlefield these days.

I think this is hitting the nail right on the head.  Regardless of the risk of injury, the command leadership feels such pressure politically, that if there is ever a single incident whereby a soldier is injured or killed and the media, public, or politicians scream out "How come he wasn't equipped with proper body armour? Who ordered him not to wear armour?  How come he was allowed not to be wearing armour?" or things along such lines that we've adopted this risk averse mentality. 

 

[daftandbarmy]

I have no experience with the new rucksack but based on over 25 years experience in the army I know that if you build a bigger load carrying device someone higher up will design a kit list to fill said load carrying device! Oftentimes not realising that on operations we carry lots of ammo and water, thus adding even more to the weight load.

Amen. Except in a few specilized situations e.g., long term OPs, SF operations etc, there should be no need to fill up a rucksack that large. Options? Either 'need less' or have a more efficient echelon system.

 

[ICFY95]

When you say with "armour and TV" do you actually mean with plates in or just an empty frag vest?

I haven`t marched with plates in yet (is there a shortage of training plates?- we haven`t seen them yet)