New Dress Regs 🤣

[FSTO]

Nice legacy to be a flair wanker. (and was he the predecessor or two removed? Hard to keep track with the GOFO musical chairs in the me too era).

Mistakes

Art, Craig, Angus in that order.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Here's a link to an article with photos; looks like it was done by someone who never saw a ship outside a bathtub toy, is only aware of waves as a concept, and missed the art lessons on perspective.

To get it someone has to get their BWK (ie not the OFP milestone for the board), be posted as an XO, and be posted as a CO. Could be on an MCDV etc, so pretty random. In theory someone who couldn't pass the (NOPQ?) board and never hit OFP could get a bronze one, and someone relieved of duty for whatever reason would still be entitled to wear one. Or maybe not, because it's not in the dress manual or anything else official, so the RCN can make it up as they go.

Overall it's a puzzling mess of a solution to a question almost no one was asking, but we got anyway because it was the pet project of a bored GOFO. I think the resources spent on this would have been better used doing literally nothing.

New Royal Canadian Navy pin marks steps toward command - Pacific Navy News

I thought I payed close attention to the dress committee notes and I don't recall it ever being presented as an article for discussion and processing.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Nice legacy to be a flair wanker. (and was he the predecessor or two removed? Hard to keep track with the GOFO musical chairs in the me too era).

Mistakes

Uh hmmm...

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10152261864856237&id=61263506236

 

[FSTO]

Uh hmmm...

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10152261864856237&id=61263506236

TBH, the gold on the RCAF light blue never looked right to my eye. I like the look of it now, but they should have added a belt.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

TBH, the gold on the RCAF light blue never looked right to my eye. I like the look of it now, but they should have added a belt.

I was thinking “this is the only change that happened under his Command”…non-operational dress.

“They will remember me when they pay way more for mess kit!”

 

[Kat Stevens]

Small world.

We were the red headed step children of the family. I finally got my shmancy Gore-Tex snivel kit issued in country. In May.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Art, Craig, Angus in that order.

Thanks, and my initial categorization as a 'flair wanker' was probably unintentionally harsh, as I generally respected him from the minimal encounters I've had with him, and generally heard good things.

Just generally frustrated that a lot of recent CRCNs keep making promising noises about taking care of sailors but continue to drive the op sched at an unsustainable pace and just ignore the downward spiral of crew shortages, poor material state, and crazy op tempo, which are all related and really entirely driven by the operational side of the house. So when they do stupid buttons and bows type things just seems like they are ignoring the giant elephant in the room, and when we straight up told them FRE last year was a best case scenario for that fire and a lot of other ships would have run aground to no actual change (and some things getting worse) I tend to lose sleep and don't really trust the institution anymore (despite previously having high opinion of those now in charge).

At least previously with the 280s/AORs they got downgraded on ops and eventually kept alongside, but now similar things just get shrugs with a box ticking risk assessment at best, or ignored completely.

 

[FSTO]

Thanks, and my initial categorization as a 'flair wanker' was probably unintentionally harsh, as I generally respected him from the minimal encounters I've had with him, and generally heard good things.

Just generally frustrated that a lot of recent CRCNs keep making promising noises about taking care of sailors but continue to drive the op sched at an unsustainable pace and just ignore the downward spiral of crew shortages, poor material state, and crazy op tempo, which are all related and really entirely driven by the operational side of the house. So when they do stupid buttons and bows type things just seems like they are ignoring the giant elephant in the room, and when we straight up told them FRE last year was a best case scenario for that fire and a lot of other ships would have run aground to no actual change (and some things getting worse) I tend to lose sleep and don't really trust the institution anymore (despite previously having high opinion of those now in charge).

At least previously with the 280s/AORs they got downgraded on ops and eventually kept alongside, but now similar things just get shrugs with a box ticking risk assessment at best, or ignored completely.

Let me play devils advocate for a bit. As Humphrey Bogart keep reminding us, the RCN is not a service but an environment so CRCN doesn’t have their own Minister to go to say what the navy is or is not capable of doing and then that person sitting at the cabinet table and looking at the PM and FM and telling them that same assessment. Therefore CRCN’s message is filtered by CJOC, VCDS, CDS, and DND DM prior getting to the minister if it gets there at all. CRCN’s only recourse really is to resign which will maybe get one news cycle of coverage before it is forgotten.

Now I’m not saying that there is nothing the Navy on its own can do mitigate the destruction of the fleet, but there may be immense pressure from above to provide hulls to keep up the facade that Canada matters in world events.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Let me play devils advocate for a bit. As Humphrey Bogart keep reminding us, the RCN is not a service but an environment so CRCN doesn’t have their own Minister to go to say what the navy is or is not capable of doing and then that person sitting at the cabinet table and looking at the PM and FM and telling them that same assessment. Therefore CRCN’s message is filtered by CJOC, VCDS, CDS, and DND DM prior getting to the minister if it gets there at all. CRCN’s only recourse really is to resign which will maybe get one news cycle of coverage before it is forgotten.

Now I’m not saying that there is nothing the Navy on its own can do mitigate the destruction of the fleet, but there may be immense pressure from above to provide hulls to keep up the facade that Canada matters in world events.

Finally, someone understands. CRCN is a staff weinie, just like all the other Environmental Chiefs are staff weinies. He is not a true Commander of anything and he wouldn't even get an audience with either the PM or FM. I'd be surprised if either even know who the CRCN is LOL and I jest not!

The sooner "the Navy" learns how to actually play the game both in NDHQ and Ottawa, the better off it will be. It's been 50ish years and counting though so I'm not holding my breath.

The current GOC only cares that there is a flag present, they don't care what is behind that flag.

 

[Good2Golf]

Ooh, almost forgot. Could only wear the white balaclava if you were wearing mukluks. White hats and black boots was just soooo last year.

Don’t forget the gloves!

Finally, someone understands. CRCN is a staff weinie, just like all the other Environmental Chiefs are staff weinies. He is not a true Commander of anything and he wouldn't even get an audience with either the PM or FM. I'd be surprised if either even know who the CRCN is LOL and I jest not!

Ironically that on the light blue side of things, there is a 3* commander, but it’s not CRCAF, but DCOMD NORAD..

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Don’t forget the gloves!




Ironically that on the light blue side of things, there is a 3* commander, but it’s not CRCAF, but DCOMD NORAD..

I was going to mention that the actual Commanders are CJOC Comd, Comd CANSOFCOM and DComd NORAD but I held off

 

[Good2Golf]

I was going to mention that the actual Commanders are CJOC Comd, Comd CANSOFCOM and DComd NORAD but I held off

Reminds me of the good ole days…Leslie-Gauthier Thunderdome matches…

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Reminds me of the good ole days…Leslie-Gauthier Thunderdome matches…

I think a big problem the Navy Leadership suffers from is they spend too much time on the coasts. Victoria and Halifax are small places, the salt air clouds the vision and insular thinking takes hold.

It would do some of them a lot of good to spend some time in the Trenches in Ottawa.

 

[OldSolduer]

I think a big problem the Navy Leadership suffers from is they spend too much time on the coasts. Victoria and Halifax are small places, the salt air clouds the vision and insular thinking takes hold.

It would do some of them a lot of good to spend some time in the Trenches in Ottawa.

Or on Lake Superior in November

The lake it is said never gives up her dead

When the gales of November come slashin

Lightfoot - the best poet Canada ever produced.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Let me play devils advocate for a bit. As Humphrey Bogart keep reminding us, the RCN is not a service but an environment so CRCN doesn’t have their own Minister to go to say what the navy is or is not capable of doing and then that person sitting at the cabinet table and looking at the PM and FM and telling them that same assessment. Therefore CRCN’s message is filtered by CJOC, VCDS, CDS, and DND DM prior getting to the minister if it gets there at all. CRCN’s only recourse really is to resign which will maybe get one news cycle of coverage before it is forgotten.

Now I’m not saying that there is nothing the Navy on its own can do mitigate the destruction of the fleet, but there may be immense pressure from above to provide hulls to keep up the facade that Canada matters in world events.

I'd say there is a lot of entirely self-inflicted within the RCN lines that causing issues before things ever get up to CJOC, VCDS etc.

We previously had a 'come to Jesus' moment where the RCN briefed up to the MND for the 280s, AORs and FELEX CPFs on how things are foxed and what we can still reasonably do; that was entirely RCN driven with MEPM support, and worked pretty well under the restrictions we have now had then.

Now have very similar technical issues and much worse personnel issues, and it's the CRCN office pushing the fleet to do even more with less, while straight up ignoring CAF general safety orders, CDS direction on reconstitution and other things.

The most obvious and glaring example is HMCS Oriole; that's only still alive because some Admiral wants it; no one above it could give a shit about Oriole, and it should have gotten paid off before we dumped a ton of money to bring it up to basic SOLAS standards for stability.

Lots of other obvious examples during COVID, including CHA being scheduled to go on an exercise right up until the 11th hour despite having no rudder, and not being fit to sail even under our very low standards.

Maybe things are filtering out before they get to CRCN, but it's not CJOC pushing the Navy to do random patrols, TRPs with minimum crews, deploying ships not meeting SOLAS, etc; that's entirely the Navy. And I'm pretty sure if the CDS found out ships weren't following CAF safety orders by allowing beards with SCBA, shit would get sorted pretty quick. It's getting reported in ST exercise messages, so the RCN can't hide behind the skirts of higher commands for things entirely it's own fault and completely within their authority to sort out.

People just need to grow a godamn spine and report things up, and if the executive summary on a major fire investigation says 'the RCN dodged a bullet' that shouldn't get pushed under a carpet.

 

[dimsum]

I don't like to tell folks what to do without being willing to do it myself, so kept my second layer nearby etc, so this just seemed like a normal extension of that, as I would normally suggest to folks they wear a leather belt vice the DEU one. I've seen the FR testing on our NCDs, and makes a huge difference to have the layers on, so makes zero sense to have a belt on their which would turn into a molten burning mess within the same test, and the post fire burns from people having synthetic tshirts etc melt onto them is pretty grim.

Haven't been following this thread in the past while, so played catch-up.

Similarly, some aircrew wear 2-piece flight suits. Guess what belt they're supposed to wear with it? The same green (now brown) nylon "cargo strap" belt issued for CADPAT, which would also be a molten burning mess in a fire situation.

I've pointed that out before and folks said "if your belt is melting then there are bigger issues". I don't know - nylon melting to 2 layers of clothing from my skin seems like a pretty big issue to me.

Edit to add: Looking at @Eye In The Sky 's link, I also think the RCAF GOFO tunics having both sleeve and shoulder rank is stupid. Folks can figure out what rank you are from the sleeve rings, and the other services have one or the other, not both. It's not even a "history and heritage" thing because the pre-unification RCAF uniform didn't have the shoulder ranks.

 

[stoker dave]

deploying ships not meeting SOLAS, etc; ....

People just need to grow a godamn spine and report things up...

Please allow me to share my perspective as a long-out-of-the-game MARE who has worked as an engineer (usually some type of field work) for some decades.

First, where I work, everyone has the RIGHT to a safe work environment and everyone has a RIGHT to stop work in unsafe conditions. This is taken very seriously. The most junior construction worker can bring an entire construction site to a halt if that worker 'feels' unsafe. It is the responsibility of the site health and safety (H&S) team, site superintendents and site managers to address any safety concerns - real or imagined. (If they are imagined safety hazards, the worker will be counseled as to why their fears are misplaced and what is being done to address them.). There are ZERO negative repercussions for stopping work - indeed, the individual who made the call will be acknowledged and recognized for their initiative and attention to safety.

Failure to follow H&S regulations WILL result in dismissal, penalties or fines. Managers who ignore H&S rules can go to jail.

So this is what I don't understand about what is going on in the Navy. There must be some law or regulation that applies to service personnel that assures them a safe work environment. Sure, you can be ordered to storm a machine gun nest but you shouldn't be expected to drive vehicles with no brakes (for example).

Are there health and safety committees? H&S audits? Who is responsible for this?

If there are SAFETY hazards, they should be promptly and immediately addressed and rectified. I would fully expect that there are applicable regulations to address this situation. Can someone shed some light?

 

[ueo]

TBH, the gold on the RCAF light blue never looked right to my eye. I like the look of it now, but they should have added a belt.

Sam Browne?

 

[FSTO]

Sam Browne?

No, this:

 

[dimsum]

No, this:

If the tunics are tailored right (belts or not), they look better.