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New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

  • Thread starter Thread starter GAP
  • Start date Start date
tomahawk6 said:
I read this article about the replacement of Canada's surface warships destroyers/frigates.In the article they seemed to favor the French FREMM.Idf this is in the wrong spot please move.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/focus-analysis/naval-technology/3996-dcns-confident-its-fremm-is-the-right-solution-for-the-royal-canadian-navy-csc-program.html

What I found most interesting about this article is the following:

As a matter of fact, under the refined procurement process, Canada prompts bidders to integrate in their offer up to 24 Canadian equipment, systems and technologies. It is not a surprise to have on this list equipment such as helicopter handling system, underway replenishment at sea or integrated platform management system (IPMS). Such systems will have to be fitted onboard FREMM. However as far as missiles are concerned, shipbuilders may offer the system of their choice. Canada seems decided not to re-use the venerable Mk41 launchers currently fitted on its vessels. Therefore DCNS will probably offer missile solutions by MBDA. Regarding radars there no Canadian requirement for now. For the Air Defense variant DCNS is proposing a FREMM fitted with a 4 panel array radar (active electronically scanned) from Thales

And this:
Growth margins of the current design could accommodate a crew of 180 sailors to answer Canadian needs without major modifications.

Looks like they are trying to sell the FREMM-ER
.
The thumbnail sketch of the ship desing is taking place now in the open source documents.  Of the 24 systems not mentioned we're probably looking at sonars, torpedoes, EW systems, comms (internal, external), and nav systems. Possibly some damage control ones.  I can't seem to find a list of these so I'm just guessing based upon "Canadianized" equipment currently mounted. Obviously equipment for the helos, IPMS and RAS must be matching.  The active electronically scanned array from Thales listed here is probably the Sea Fire 500 AESA.  I'm surprised there is no requirement for radar.  One would think that there would at least be a volume search combined with an multi-function.  That's a great combination as they cover each others weaknesses off.  Perhaps that's coming later as the project becomes more defined.

Aster missiles would be an interesting variation from the current SM series.  The Aster 15 and 30 are the same missile with a larger boost phase for the latter.  The 30 could be swapped one for one with an SM2.  But the ESSM can only be swapped 4 for 1 with the Aster 15.  Loss of capability for the GP version of the ships perhaps for the self defence AAW aspect.
 
Chris Pook said:
How many more vessels could be built if the numbers were reduced?  More CSCs, AORs, Subs, LPDs, Corvettes or AOPSs.  Lumber has pointed out that he with the most ships wins in any given engagement.  More bodies per platform equals more casualties.

I don't know where Lumber stated that, but it is incorrect in any event.

Beginning as far back as the battle of Salamis, where more than 750 Persian ships were defeated by about 375 Greek ships, and all the way to the Battle of Midway, where the Americans defeated a Japanese force about twice their size and composed of heavier ships, sea battles have been won by smaller fleets than those of the defeated party.
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
I don't know where Lumber stated that, but it is incorrect in any event.

Beginning as far back as the battle of Salamis, where more than 750 Persian ships were defeated by about 375 Greek ships, and all the way to the Battle of Midway, where the Americans defeated a Japanese force about twice their size and composed of heavier ships, sea battles have been won by smaller fleets than those of the defeated party.

I mentioned it here: Re: Save Money and Get a Big Ship

I was simplifying things drastically, as I was not taking into account air cover, submarines, and the skill level of commanders. Simply put, I was saying that a naval battle between navies armed with the most modern anti-ship missiles would be a war of attrition. Anyone who got missiles shot at them would be dead, so whoever has the most ships would win, since most warships these days seem to carry the same number of anti-ship missiles (roughly 8).
 
Underway said:
Article on the difficulties and why it's so hard to procure a warship.

Really nice ship on the left of the photo btw. [Xp  (how sad there won't be more of this class)

And may i ad the "zevens"were built on time and on budget,so it's possible.

gr,walter
 
I see Davie is proposing a MULTI-ROLE NAVAL SUPPORT VESSEL  www.federalfleet.ca. This could fill an number of roles quite nicely.

Proven Design. Mission-Ready. Built in Canada.

The MRNSV adopts a missionized-payload approach to provide
a multi-role platform for navies and coast guards to perform a
wide variety of functions including:
> Border Patrol and Search & Rescue
> Humanitarian and Disaster Relief (HaDR)
> Forward Ship Maintenance and Repair
> Submarine Rescue
> Scientific Research
> Coastal Resupply
> Training (target launch and CQC)
13394040_1071336892919624_5503559639646175670_n_zpszir6jmiw.jpg

  http://www.davie.ca/pdf/MRNSV-Pamphlet.pdf
 
jollyjacktar said:
Almost reminds me of the Morsby or Anticosti in appearance.

Sort of, this ship is twice the length. Its fairly large. It could replace the Quest quite nicely.
 
It's a lot more than twice the length of the MORESBY/ANTICOSTI. It is actually, at 14,000 gross tons to MOR/ANT's 2,000, 7 times bigger. It is in fact almost the same length as a HAL but more than three times their size. In other words, this thing is huge and would only be exceeded in size by the new AOR's.

Why the offer at this time though?

Because this is Cecon's second hull, stopped at about 80 % completion.

Davie got a contract from Cecon a few years back to build three deep sea construction vessels. Highly specialized ships built to support remote construction on the sea bed for the oil and gas industry. The first one, m/v Cecon Pride, was completed and delivered in 2015 - you see a picture at the bottom of the last page of the pamphlet.

With the price of oil dropping off like fallen leaves last year, Cecon put a stop or delay order on the last two - not required at this time. So Davie find's itself holding on to a three quarter's complete deep sea construction vessel, already paid for, until Cecon re-starts the program. Perfect timing to propose doing minimal modifications to turn this vessel into a multi-purpose naval vessel, if successful buy it back from Cecon, pocket the money and still have a contract in hand for two more when Cecon re-opens the line.

Again: Smart on the part of Davie, IMHO.

By the way, Chief, Quest is actually the only one vessel it could not replace. Quest has all sorts of special treatment for noise reduction to make her able to work various acoustic equipment, which this thing does not have and would make the research useless or at least very difficult.

I see a few difficulties with the proposal in the current environment in Canada: It covers responsibilities split amongst more than one Department - and in some department (Transport, not to name it  :) ) across different divisions - that are each their own little empires, so it would raise serious questions of "ownership", if you may.

Also, are we really in need of these capabilities at this time? I'll explore that from their list below:

The MRNSV adopts a missionized-payload approach to provide
a multi-role platform for navies and coast guards to perform a
wide variety of functions including:
> Border Patrol and Search & Rescue
It could be useful for the Coast Guard as supplementary asset in that function, but many resources already exist.
> Humanitarian and Disaster Relief (HaDR)
At 16 knots, it would take a lot of time to deploy - and which coast would you select for basing? Moreover, how frequently would it be required? Such a ship would have been useful for the Swissair disaster, but how often can we expect such thing. We had a nice deep sea diving support capability with CORMORANT before, but in a tight budget environment, she was decommissioned instead of refitted because the overall requirement did not justify the expense.
> Forward Ship Maintenance and Repair
I could see that, but again, how often would we need such capability?
> Submarine Rescue
We have not had a specific submarine rescue capability since CORMORANT was retired in 1997. There has been no pressure to replace that capability and I don't think there will be any in the future unless we greatly increase the number of submarines we operate.
> Scientific Research
I could see that, especially in the Arctic, but it is not a naval responsibility nor our area of expertise. That belong in the old Oceans and Fisheries purview (whatever they are called these days).
> Coastal Resupply
Not sure what they mean here. I don't see fuelling masts, so we are not talking RAS. If they mean re-supplying coastal towns, I think that is a TC responsibility. If they mean they could go to coastal bays and harbours, take frigates and destroyers alongside and resupply them in fuel and food, etc., I could see that being useful, but really only for Arctic deployment. Such vessel could certainly provide a great support function to the AOPS when deployed up North by combining the shop/coastal supply functions and linking St John's with Inuvik in that capacity and would reduce the pressure to build infrastructure in the North.
> Training (target launch and CQC)
Can't see that one, we already have coastal CFAV's that are much smaller, more economical to run and have only a handful of personnel required to carry that function. The ship proposed here would be overkill.


I note that there is one possible use for such ship that is not mentioned or even hinted at (and here I know I will please my friend Chris): Such ship would make one hell of a nice forward deployed offshore base for special forces.  :nod:
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
It's a lot more than twice the length of the MORESBY/ANTICOSTI. It is actually, at 14,000 gross tons to MOR/ANT's 2,000, 7 times bigger. It is in fact almost the same length as a HAL but more than three times their size. In other words, this thing is huge and would only be exceeded in size by the new AOR's.

Why the offer at this time though?

Because this is Cecon's second hull, stopped at about 80 % completion.

Davie got a contract from Cecon a few years back to build three deep sea construction vessels. Highly specialized ships built to support remote construction on the sea bed for the oil and gas industry. The first one, m/v Cecon Pride, was completed and delivered in 2015 - you see a picture at the bottom of the last page of the pamphlet.

With the price of oil dropping off like fallen leaves last year, Cecon put a stop or delay order on the last two - not required at this time. So Davie find's itself holding on to a three quarter's complete deep sea construction vessel, already paid for, until Cecon re-starts the program. Perfect timing to propose doing minimal modifications to turn this vessel into a multi-purpose naval vessel, if successful buy it back from Cecon, pocket the money and still have a contract in hand for two more when Cecon re-opens the line.

Again: Smart on the part of Davie, IMHO.

By the way, Chief, Quest is actually the only one vessel it could not replace. Quest has all sorts of special treatment for noise reduction to make her able to work various acoustic equipment, which this thing does not have and would make the research useless or at least very difficult.

I see a few difficulties with the proposal in the current environment in Canada: It covers responsibilities split amongst more than one Department - and in some department (Transport, not to name it  :) ) across different divisions - that are each their own little empires, so it would raise serious questions of "ownership", if you may.

Also, are we really in need of these capabilities at this time? I'll explore that from their list below:

The MRNSV adopts a missionized-payload approach to provide
a multi-role platform for navies and coast guards to perform a
wide variety of functions including:
> Border Patrol and Search & Rescue
It could be useful for the Coast Guard as supplementary asset in that function, but many resources already exist.
> Humanitarian and Disaster Relief (HaDR)
At 16 knots, it would take a lot of time to deploy - and which coast would you select for basing? Moreover, how frequently would it be required? Such a ship would have been useful for the Swissair disaster, but how often can we expect such thing. We had a nice deep sea diving support capability with CORMORANT before, but in a tight budget environment, she was decommissioned instead of refitted because the overall requirement did not justify the expense.
> Forward Ship Maintenance and Repair
I could see that, but again, how often would we need such capability?
> Submarine Rescue
We have not had a specific submarine rescue capability since CORMORANT was retired in 1997. There has been no pressure to replace that capability and I don't think there will be any in the future unless we greatly increase the number of submarines we operate.
> Scientific Research
I could see that, especially in the Arctic, but it is not a naval responsibility nor our area of expertise. That belong in the old Oceans and Fisheries purview (whatever they are called these days).
> Coastal Resupply
Not sure what they mean here. I don't see fuelling masts, so we are not talking RAS. If they mean re-supplying coastal towns, I think that is a TC responsibility. If they mean they could go to coastal bays and harbours, take frigates and destroyers alongside and resupply them in fuel and food, etc., I could see that being useful, but really only for Arctic deployment. Such vessel could certainly provide a great support function to the AOPS when deployed up North by combining the shop/coastal supply functions and linking St John's with Inuvik in that capacity and would reduce the pressure to build infrastructure in the North.
> Training (target launch and CQC)
Can't see that one, we already have coastal CFAV's that are much smaller, more economical to run and have only a handful of personnel required to carry that function. The ship proposed here would be overkill.


I note that there is one possible use for such ship that is not mentioned or even hinted at (and here I know I will please my friend Chris): Such ship would make one hell of a nice forward deployed offshore base for special forces.  :nod:

In regards to replacing Quest, it certainly could carry out all the tasks that the Kingston class have been doing in regards to DCRC without the noise suppression. It could also serve as a mobile support base for the Kingston Class as they are getting back into MCM overseas and support in the Arctic as facilities are sparse in the Arctic. I would imagine with its size could be used to fuel other vessels. Dependent on how much we could get the vessel for it could provide a number of capabilities that we no longer have or haven't had in the first place.
 
Jack of all trades, if the price is right probably a good pick up, operate with civilian crew just like the Resolve program.

IIRC Moresby/Anticosti had limited aor capability.

On a side note IMHO the Berlins, although an excellent design, there build in Canada cost is prohibitive  perhaps it would be cheaper to build hull overseas with final fitting out in Canada.
Operating the Berlins as a commercial venture should also be explored, ala Resolve.
Vancouver shipyards would then concentrate on icebreaker construction.
 
ringo wrote:

...
Operating the Berlins as a commercial venture should also be explored, ala Resolve.
Vancouver shipyards would then concentrate on icebreaker construction.

See:

Why not more Canadian Coast Guard Icebreakers Instead of RCN JSS?
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2015/10/28/mark-collins-why-not-more-canadian-coast-guard-icebreakers-instead-of-rcn-jss/

Mark
Ottawa
 
I would like to offer a proven interim design to provide an immediate ability to fill the current gaps. The 40mm from the Kingston would fit perfectly on this.

http://www.nauticapedia.ca/dbase/Query/Shiplist4.php?&name=Edgewater%20Fortune&id=4962&Page=1&input=Edgewater 
 
ringo said:
Jack of all trades, if the price is right probably a good pick up, operate with civilian crew just like the Resolve program.

IIRC Moresby/Anticosti had limited aor capability.

On a side note IMHO the Berlins, although an excellent design, there build in Canada cost is prohibitive  perhaps it would be cheaper to build hull overseas with final fitting out in Canada.
Operating the Berlins as a commercial venture should also be explored, ala Resolve.
Vancouver shipyards would then concentrate on icebreaker construction.
I would vote to build the AOR's in South Korea, along with the Brits, a different design at a fraction of the cost, and build the CSC hulls the same way, certainly have Seaspan build additional icebreakers, 1-2.  Still go ahead with the Davie plan. 
 
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