New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Navy_Pete]

Only the Russians have "real Ice breakers" The AOP's is roughly the equivalent of the CCG 1100 class light icebreaker. In fact because they are new they might be better than the much older 1100's now. The government is not buying nuke subs, so you get AOP's, which I think are decent stepping stones to more Northern capabilities and need to be part of a whole of government approach to the North, along with dragging the Army and RCAF into the game as well.
People have laughed at my suggestion that the Chinese/Russians could land a "scientific expedition for the benefit of mankind", lets say Mould Bay and declare it as part of a international land owned by no one and that our claim is not legal. Exactly what are we going to do in that case? The Russians can resupply it with their nuclear ice breakers when all of ours are in the South and since they are "civilian ships" are we (US and Canada) ready to sink them? Eventually we would have to land troops and push them out, with a Oka style standoff. The AOP's gives us a limited abilty to do that, with the helo deck and small landing craft.

I don't think AOPs is going to do anything with only a 25mm gun, no self defence capabilities (or even monitoring), and a ship not built or crewed for anything other than getting from A to B.

It's still not helo capable and will need some fixes to the design first.

At best it would clear a path for a CPF (assuming we have enough people to get two ships off the wall up north anyway). But at that point ships alone won't do much, and would take them weeks to get there anyway.

Really not a cost effective thing to do if that's our goal; remote monitoring, planes, some long distance missile batteries or some other combo would do a better job.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I will disagree, you need ice capable ships as part of the mix, fixing the helo thing will happen really fast if they have to and likley in the meantime you can fly smaller helos as well. Don't count on a CFP going that far north with any certainty, ice conditions are always unpredictable, the AOP's may be all you have and it pretty much double our militaries amphibious landing capability, as now you can get quads ashore, which actually is a big thing. The scenario I put out would be more a battle of wills than guns. Air dropping troops with no back up plan or support would be a very bad idea I suspect. Likely also there will be two AOP's up there through a good part of the summer, one in the Western Arctic and one in the Eastern Arctic. Cycling the crews every 28 days or so like the CCG is a good idea. Even if down in Esquimalt at 12 knots that about 11 days to get there.
Eventually the RCN Reserve should base some boats out of communities in the Western and Eastern Arctic. With a mix of locals and Southerners. Perhaps start with a CB 90 type vessel and haul it out in winter.

 

[Underway]

I don't think AOPs is going to do anything with only a 25mm gun, no self defence capabilities (or even monitoring), and a ship not built or crewed for anything other than getting from A to B.

It's still not helo capable and will need some fixes to the design first.

At best it would clear a path for a CPF (assuming we have enough people to get two ships off the wall up north anyway). But at that point ships alone won't do much, and would take them weeks to get there anyway.

Really not a cost effective thing to do if that's our goal; remote monitoring, planes, some long distance missile batteries or some other combo would do a better job.

I keep coming back to this. Its a security guard not SWAT. It supports OGD's better then the Coast Guard does for all manner of situations.

Yes the helo ops need to get there but for all the non-combat roles this is a great ship. MCM, diving, drone usage, support to platoon sized teams ashore, community outreach, disaster response, law enforcement operations, passive subsurface sensors. It's already done most of this stuff and proven the capability.

We frankly need to quit fixating on the gun and look at what capabilities it does bring. It's really useful in the missions that the RCN is often call on to do.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I keep coming back to this. Its a security guard not SWAT. It supports OGD's better then the Coast Guard does for all manner of situations.

Yes the helo ops need to get there but for all the non-combat roles this is a great ship. MCM, diving, drone usage, support to platoon sized teams ashore, community outreach, disaster response, law enforcement operations, passive subsurface sensors. It's already done most of this stuff and proven the capability.

We frankly need to quit fixating on the gun and look at what capabilities it does bring. It's really useful in the missions that the RCN is often call on to do.

Thanks, Underway. I remain skeptical about putting a "constabulary vessel" in a Navy, especially when we actually have a national constabulary force with a marine division, but your points are very, vert well taken.

 

[suffolkowner]

Thats the thing though isnt it? The RCN also functions as a constabulary force. Im sure the AOPS will be put to good use and will be able to embark all sorts of sexy new capabilities going forward including mine hunting and underwater surveillance. The main thing is it looks like Irving will be kept working until they can transition to the CSC. The RCN and CCG get ships and new ships are progress of a sort whether they are exactly what everyone wants or not

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I keep coming back to this. Its a security guard not SWAT. It supports OGD's better then the Coast Guard does for all manner of situations.

Yes the helo ops need to get there but for all the non-combat roles this is a great ship. MCM, diving, drone usage, support to platoon sized teams ashore, community outreach, disaster response, law enforcement operations, passive subsurface sensors. It's already done most of this stuff and proven the capability.

We frankly need to quit fixating on the gun and look at what capabilities it does bring. It's really useful in the missions that the RCN is often call on to do.

And frankly, if they find anything that needs shooting, a CP-140/P-8 or a dozen Hornets/F-35s are only hours away (depending if it is below or above the surface of the water…).

 

[Stoker]

I keep coming back to this. Its a security guard not SWAT. It supports OGD's better then the Coast Guard does for all manner of situations.

Yes the helo ops need to get there but for all the non-combat roles this is a great ship. MCM, diving, drone usage, support to platoon sized teams ashore, community outreach, disaster response, law enforcement operations, passive subsurface sensors. It's already done most of this stuff and proven the capability.

We frankly need to quit fixating on the gun and look at what capabilities it does bring. It's really useful in the missions that the RCN is often call on to do.

100%. I wish I've been in a AOPV for many of the times I been to the Arctic. Once the technical issues are rectified they will be sailing a lot. Would love to see an expansion to the deep water port in Iqaluit to include jetty space and offices and warehouses for a couple of AOPV's and Kingston Class so the response time would be cut down and a spot where contractors could more easily be sent in, crew changes, resupply etc.

 

[Maxman1]

Better yet, a full resurrection of CFS Frobisher Bay (as CFS Iqaluit).

 

[torg003]

Imagine if the US had never bought Alaska, we could have ended up with a Canada looking a bit more like Finland. The border of the Yukon and NW BC would be a long line of fortifications.

Sorry, not trying to be pedantic, but that's not really an accurate assessment. Russia was abandoning their NA possessions as they were costing too much. They sold Alaska to the Yanks because they didn't want the Brits to get it. There was really no chance that the US was going to turn down the Russian offer as they wanted every square inch of NA territory they could get.

 

[Underway]

Thanks, Underway. I remain skeptical about putting a "constabulary vessel" in a Navy, especially when we actually have a national constabulary force with a marine division, but your points are very, vert well taken.

Do we? Coast Guard isn't constabulatory unless perhaps you refer to Fisheries and Oceans. I feel like I'm missing something here. The RCN is really the only one out there who does constabulatory operations (with embarked policing policing when required).

As for needing a helo, well there are some really cool new things coming out with UAV's that can be a game changer for ships like AOPS. Perhaps above water isn't their thing, but add on a few things like this that could drop sonobouys and carry torps

This heavy-lift drone could quietly carry a sub-hunting torpedo

Combined with TRAPS. We would have to see how effective it would be, might be useless might be good but when you have that sort of space and flexibility built into a platform bolt on solutions become interesting options.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I keep coming back to this. Its a security guard not SWAT. It supports OGD's better then the Coast Guard does for all manner of situations.

Yes the helo ops need to get there but for all the non-combat roles this is a great ship. MCM, diving, drone usage, support to platoon sized teams ashore, community outreach, disaster response, law enforcement operations, passive subsurface sensors. It's already done most of this stuff and proven the capability.

We frankly need to quit fixating on the gun and look at what capabilities it does bring. It's really useful in the missions that the RCN is often call on to do.

MCM are you kidding?

Trying to do everything with one platform is going to get people killed if we ever have to do it IRL. If we want to do real mine counter measures we should really just get a purpose built ship rather than FAFO.

 

[Stoker]

MCM are you kidding?

Trying to do everything with one platform is going to get people killed if we ever have to do it IRL. If we want to do real mine counter measures we should really just get a purpose built ship rather than FAFO.

They can certainly act as a platform for the REMUS although they don't have degaussing. There is talk of sending one overseas to act as a support ship to the Kingston class.

 

[Navy_Pete]

They can certainly act as a platform for the REMUS although they don't have degaussing. There is talk of sending one overseas to act as a support ship to the Kingston class.

Perfect, lets send two non-combatants into theatre.

We haven't even shaken out all the bugs out of AOPs yet and the ones we know about are pretty fundamental, so of course the RCN is talking about deploying them already.

 

[Stoker]

Perfect, lets send two non-combatants into theatre.

We haven't even shaken out all the bugs out of AOPs yet and the ones we know about are pretty fundamental, so of course the RCN is talking about deploying them already.

I assume any overseas deployments will be after the current defects are rectified, they already have done OP Caribbes so they were successful at that. It would be nice to have a AOPV to back up and support the Kingston Class on certain deployments as we usually get poor support.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Sorry, not trying to be pedantic, but that's not really an accurate assessment. Russia was abandoning their NA possessions as they were costing too much. They sold Alaska to the Yanks because they didn't want the Brits to get it. There was really no chance that the US was going to turn down the Russian offer as they wanted every square inch of NA territory they could get.

It's a great alternative history discussion, you could also include the possibility that if they held it, it might become a White Russian enclave.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Do we? Coast Guard isn't constabulatory unless perhaps you refer to Fisheries and Oceans. I feel like I'm missing something here. The RCN is really the only one out there who does constabulatory operations (with embarked policing policing when required).

As for needing a helo, well there are some really cool new things coming out with UAV's that can be a game changer for ships like AOPS. Perhaps above water isn't their thing, but add on a few things like this that could drop sonobouys and carry torps

This heavy-lift drone could quietly carry a sub-hunting torpedo

Combined with TRAPS. We would have to see how effective it would be, might be useless might be good but when you have that sort of space and flexibility built into a platform bolt on solutions become interesting options.

I was thinking of the RCMP. I know the Marine Division is, now, a small, coastal service, but it was not always that way ... and needn't be.

 

[Halifax Tar]

get poor support.

Have a chat with SNC Lavalin. They are great at engineering, so I hear; and awful at material movements and management, so I experienced.

I spent two years directly supporting deployed Naval units from MLOC and MCDVs are by far the most frustrating, most out of touch with reality, and biggest messes logistically. Maybe it comes an almost nonexistent footprint from Log on board, maybe its the ISSC, maybe its both.

 

[Underway]

MCM are you kidding?

Trying to do everything with one platform is going to get people killed if we ever have to do it IRL. If we want to do real mine counter measures we should really just get a purpose built ship rather than FAFO.

Does the ship have an ability to launch/recover various UXV's and boats? Carry clearance divers, carry a hyperbaric chamber? Have a robust comms suite. Sustain all that for long periods of time? If the answer is yes then its fine. Modern MCM sails within the range of the minefield and then sends in its robo-minions to do the work. HDW's only issue might be its inability to dynamic station keep but I'm not even sure that's a problem anymore.

If you are sending a ship into the minefield you're doing it wrong or you're desperate. With the right loadout HDW can easily be the mothership anchored for various MCM packages or at a minimum carry them to a place of work and stage from there (ashore, barge etc...), or be part of a multi pronged solution (hold the hyperbaric chamber, medical, comms, provide meals to a MCM Det ashore.

That being said various mine types require various solutions. Deep water torp launching mines require a very different solution to moored mines for example.

 

[Stoker]

Does the ship have an ability to launch/recover various UXV's and boats? Carry clearance divers, carry a hyperbaric chamber? Have a robust comms suite. Sustain all that for long periods of time? If the answer is yes then its fine. Modern MCM sails within the range of the minefield and then sends in its robo-minions to do the work. HDW's only issue might be its inability to dynamic station keep but I'm not even sure that's a problem anymore.

If you are sending a ship into the minefield you're doing it wrong or you're desperate. With the right loadout HDW can easily be the mothership anchored for various MCM packages or at a minimum carry them to a place of work and stage from there (ashore, barge etc...), or be part of a multi pronged solution (hold the hyperbaric chamber, medical, comms, provide meals to a MCM Det ashore.

That being said various mine types require various solutions. Deep water torp launching mines require a very different solution to moored mines for example.

Most of the time its just anchoring and the team deploys from small boats to either deploy the REMUS or divers to investigate and destroy the targets after data processing.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I keep coming back to this. Its a security guard not SWAT. It supports OGD's better then the Coast Guard does for all manner of situations.

Yes the helo ops need to get there but for all the non-combat roles this is a great ship. MCM, diving, drone usage, support to platoon sized teams ashore, community outreach, disaster response, law enforcement operations, passive subsurface sensors. It's already done most of this stuff and proven the capability.

We frankly need to quit fixating on the gun and look at what capabilities it does bring. It's really useful in the missions that the RCN is often call on to do.

Sounds like its a better fit for the CCG than the RCN in terms of what capabilities and missions its called to do. If its called to perform anti-narco missions in the Carrib or WC of the US, simply added a pair of 50's to it (like the Kingston's have) and include a RCN detachment to man them and provide a boarding party when needed.