New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[suffolkowner]

So they are going to build one icebreaker? I will take bets right now it will be over a 2 billion dollars.

Will they even be using the same design?

its already known its over $2B the polar icebreaker is supposed to be one design plus 6 medium icebreakers

Will be interesting to see if they require them to do similar facility upgrades, but should really be customized for the expected build package. If they are building just icebreakers the previous plan for the CG ships, JSS and Polar from 2010 may no longer make as much sense.

That's still the easy bit; there is a lot of process improvements to QC, design, planning etc to be done, and that's actually much more of a long term item than some new buildings and production lines.

What have they been doing the last year or two to get ready? How hard does Davie really need to work to meet the standards of Irving or Seaspan or even BAE in Glasgow?

Spending money to get things built faster. We're just driving towards two yards being out of work sooner instead of one in the longer term.

3 yards 90 ships 30 years, repeat?

 

[dapaterson]

VAC spending fits within the NATO definition as well.

 

[Navy_Pete]

What have they been doing the last year or two to get ready? How hard does Davie really need to work to meet the standards of Irving or Seaspan or even BAE in Glasgow?

A lot. Irving and Seaspan both invested several hundred million dollars in infrastructure upgrades and have spent however many years doing the process improvements and building expertise. You can only build expertise in ship building by building ships. Asterix was an overhaul, and the fabrication portion of the new superstructure was done overseas. With the normal IRB/VP rules for 100% Canadian content (which didn't apply to Asterix) that route would need a whack of offsets.

Davie will also need to do shipyard upgrades to be able to do modular shipbuilding better, but there is an entire design/planning/QC aspect that is miles beyond what they've ever had to do to date.

If Davie comes under the NSS umbrella and is required to meet the same standards as ISI and Seaspan I think it will be a pretty humbling experience. The mythos of Davie's expertise is more due to their PR skills then reality, they have the same issues as everyone else. Generally that means some good work, some bad work that needs redone, and the rest is good enough for the standard. I'm sure they will run into the same delays and price overruns as everyone else has.

 

[dapaterson]

ISI has standards?

 

[MarkOttawa]

Anyone surprised? Storied Coast Guard ship can’t be fixed, shipyard says, highlighting yet again, Canada’s shipbuilding problem | Globalnews.ca

Bonne flipping chance with that 2025 date. "Acquisition malpractice" a colossal understatement:

Canada looks to charter research vessel as it awaits $1B replacement ship​

CCGS Hudson was retired this year after catastrophic motor failure​

...
Construction of a new offshore oceanographic science vessel for the East Coast has started at the Seaspan shipyard in Vancouver. It is currently estimated to cost $995 million [for 5,000t ship Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel - Seaspan]...

Delivery is now expected in 2025...

Seaspan declined to provide an estimated delivery date for the offshore oceanographic science ship...

Gosh. Wonder why.

...It was originally expected to cost $109 million with delivery in 2017...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/canada-looks-for-3-to-5-year-research-vessel-charter-1.6480413

FUBAR.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Shocking that a 59 year ship suddenly divests itself. We are so good at own goals

 

[suffolkowner]

Canadian Coast Guard Looks to Charter Interim Research Vessel

The Canadian Coast Guard has begun a search for a temporary replacement for its now retired Atlantic...

www.maritime-executive.com

Yes completely unexpected

also my favorite icebreaker Aiviq might finally be going back to work after a test run in Australia

"Canada is not alone in seeking charters to bridge delays in its shipbuilding program. Last month, the U.S. Coast Guard also released a request for information seeking to identify U.S.-built commercial icebreakers that might be available for purchase."

US Coast Guard proposes purchase of existing icebreaker as Arctic 'bridging strategy' - ArcticToday

The Biden administration is requesting $125 million in its 2023 budget to purchase an existing privately owned U.S. icebreaker. The funds would cover the estimated cost of buying a “commercially available” icebreaker, including initial modifications, U.S. Coast Guard spokesperson Richard Kolko...

www.arctictoday.com

"The Biden administration is requesting $125 million in its 2023 budget to purchase an existing privately owned U.S. icebreaker."

https://govtribe.com/opportunity/federal-contract-opportunity/commercial-icebreaker-70z02322icicc2200

 

[Good2Golf]

Interestingly, the USN still uses ALCO 251 engines and you can buy a new 251F-16V from the owners of the ALCO legacy products.

FM 251F

FM | ALCO 251F, ALCO, ALCO Engine

www.fairbanksmorse.com

 

[OceanBonfire]

Chantier Davie completed CCGS Louis S. St-Laurent's 1/3 series of work ahead of schedule:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1542600590915690497

 

[JMCanada]

New article about the flawed procurement process (not just the NSS). Recommended reading.

The Elephant in the Room | CDA Institute

Defence Procurement | The Elephant in the Room Alan Wiliams The recent announcement by the Government that it will be embarking on a new Defence Policy Review should be supported and welcomed by all Canadians. Canada must be better prepared to address the dramatically evolving threats to our...

cdainstitute.ca

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Shocking that a 59 year ship suddenly divests itself. We are so good at own goals

IIRC, the refit contract went to Marrystown in 2018 after Davie declined to do the work because, in their view, Hudson was unfixable. Davie is a pretty agressive yard when it comes to getting projects in the workbook. Since they declined the work three years ago now, perhaps someone should have clued in then that it was time to send out tenders.

 

[KevinB]

New article about the flawed procurement process (not just the NSS). Recommended reading.

The Elephant in the Room | CDA Institute

Defence Procurement | The Elephant in the Room Alan Wiliams The recent announcement by the Government that it will be embarking on a new Defence Policy Review should be supported and welcomed by all Canadians. Canada must be better prepared to address the dramatically evolving threats to our...

cdainstitute.ca

I’m not usually a fan of his writings - but he makes some great points in that one.

 

[MarkOttawa]

IIRC, the refit contract went to Marrystown in 2018 after Davie declined to do the work because, in their view, Hudson was unfixable. Davie is a pretty agressive yard when it comes to getting projects in the workbook. Since they declined the work three years ago now, perhaps someone should have clued in then that it was time to send out tenders.

More on FUBAR shipbuilding in Canada, CCG section--June this year: "new [Seaspan OOSV science] vessel has been ordered...not expected to be delivered until 2025, barring construction delays [tee hee]"

Canadian Coast Guard Looks to Charter Interim Research Vessel

The Canadian Coast Guard has begun a search for a temporary replacement for its now retired Atlantic...

www.maritime-executive.com

And from 2021:

Cost of Coast Guard ship balloons to nearly $1B as questions mount over federal shipbuilding plan​

The federal government has quietly revealed that it plans to pay nearly $1-billion to build a new ocean research vessel for the Canadian Coast Guard whose original cost was supposed to be one-tenth that amount.

The new cost estimate for the offshore oceanographic science vessel represents the latest blow to Ottawa’s multibillion-dollar plan to build new ships for the Royal Canadian Navy and Coast Guard, first revealed more than a decade ago and beset by problems ever since.

It also sets the stage for what is likely to be a difficult week for the government as Parliament’s budget watchdog and the federal auditor general prepare to release separate, highly-anticipated reports on the plan’s actual costs and problems.

The federal procurement department revealed the new $966-million price tag for the science vessel on Friday, quietly posting the new cost online on the same day it officially awarded Vancouver-based Seaspan Shipyards a contract to build the ship.

That represents a nearly tenfold increase over the original plan to spend $108-million to replace the Coast Guard’s oldest and largest research ship, the CCGS Hudson, when the project was launched in 2008.

It is also three times the government’s most recent estimate in 2016, when Ottawa predicted the vessel would cost $331-million. Coast Guard spokesman Barre Campbell said officials knew at that time that the agency would need more money...

Cost of Coast Guard ship balloons to nearly $1B as questions mount over federal shipbuilding plan

The original cost for the offshore oceanographic science vessel was supposed to be one-tenth that amount

www.theglobeandmail.com

FUBAR forever.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[JMCanada]

I’m not usually a fan of his writings - but he makes some great points in that one.

I'm glad my recommendation was worth this time.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Here is a nifty ship built by Davie for a Norwegian oil exploration company almost ten years ago. Davie owns the rights to the design and, at some point about seven years ago - in the same era as the Resolve project - Davie offered to modify one for the Navy to operate as a oceanographic research, deep underwater diving, diving support and salvage vessel.

I bet they could still quickly modify one as a research vessel and have it built in three years from get go.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/quebec-s-davie-shipyard-launches-new-ship-cecon-pride-1.2251681

 

[MTShaw]

Here is a nifty ship built by Davie for a Norwegian oil exploration company almost ten years ago. Davie owns the rights to the design and, at some point about seven years ago - in the same era as the Resolve project - Davie offered to modify one for the Navy to operate as a oceanographic research, deep underwater diving, diving support and salvage vessel.

I bet they could still quickly modify one as a research vessel and have it built in three years from get go.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/quebec-s-davie-shipyard-launches-new-ship-cecon-pride-1.2251681

It’s is never a simple matter of altering one countries specs Might as well build a new ship. Davie is really still selling its high margin Federal fleet, and not even canada is buying I don’t know why some people worship them.

Also 1bn is lifetime cost. The GLOBaM author is willfully ignorant at this point.

 

[don3wing]

More on FUBAR shipbuilding in Canada, CCG section--June this year: "new [Seaspan OOSV science] vessel has been ordered...not expected to be delivered until 2025, barring construction delays [tee hee]"

Canadian Coast Guard Looks to Charter Interim Research Vessel

The Canadian Coast Guard has begun a search for a temporary replacement for its now retired Atlantic...

www.maritime-executive.com

And from 2021:



FUBAR forever.

Mark
Ottawa

Mark,
Here is an update on the OOSV

Three’s a crowd? Not for the OOSV's engine room block.
It's been a busy few months here at Seaspan - we've been going full steam ahead on a number of projects, including commencing engine loadout and integration of the three 23-tonne Marine Diesel Generators for the Canadian Coast Guard's future Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel. The engines were delivered individually to our #NorthVan shipyard by truck before being loaded into the engine room block. With more than 1,100…
tonnes of the vessel’s steel having been cut and more than half of its 38 blocks now under construction, the #OOSV is starting to take shape on the shipyard.
Check out a timelapse of the engine loadout and see what else we've been up to in North Vancouver and Victoria recently

http://ow.ly/PIJ050JP4fT
#Shipbuilding #NationalShipbuildingStrategy
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[Kirkhill]

It’s is never a simple matter of altering one countries specs Might as well build a new ship. Davie is really still selling its high margin Federal fleet, and not even canada is buying I don’t know why some people worship them.

Also 1bn is lifetime cost. The GLOBaM author is willfully ignorant at this point.

I know this is now and that was then but this reads a lot more like fitting out the Ukrainians than the RCN.

In early 1939, with the risk of war with Nazi Germany increasing, it was clear to the Royal Navy that it needed more escort ships to counter the threat from Kriegsmarine U-boats. One particular concern was the need to protect shipping off the east coast of Britain. What was needed was something larger and faster than trawlers, but still cheap enough to be built in large numbers, preferably at small merchant shipyards, as larger yards were already busy. To meet this requirement, the Smiths Dock Company of South Bank -on-Tees, a specialist in the design and build of fishing vessels, offered a development of its 700-ton, 16 knots (18 mph; 30 km/h) whaler (whale catcher) Southern Pride.[6][7] They were intended as small convoy escort ships that could be produced quickly and cheaply in large numbers. Despite naval planners' intentions that they be deployed for coastal convoys, their long range meant that they became the mainstay of Mid-Ocean Escort Force convoy protection during the first half of the war.

The Flower class became an essential resource for North Atlantic convoy protection until larger vessels such as destroyer escorts and frigates could be produced in sufficient quantities. The simple design of the Flower class using parts and techniques (scantlings) common to merchant shipping meant they could be constructed in small commercial shipyards all over the United Kingdom and Canada, where larger (or more sophisticated) warships[8] could not be built. Additionally, the use of commercial triple expansion machinery instead of steam turbines meant the largely Royal Naval Reserve and Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve crews that were manning the corvettes would be familiar with their operation.

The RN ordered 145 Flower-class corvettes in 1939, the first 26 on 25 July with a further batch of 30 on 31 August, all under the 1939 Pre-War Programme. Following the outbreak of World War II, the British Admiralty ordered another 20 on 19 September (all from Harland & Wolff) under the 1939 War Programme. This was followed by an order for a further ten Flower-class corvettes from other British shipbuilders two days later. Another 18 were ordered on 12 December and an additional two on 15 December, again from British shipbuilders. The RN ordered the last ten vessels (under the 1939 War Programme) from Canadian shipbuilders in January 1940.

Thus, by the end of January 1940, a total of 116 ships were building or on order to this initial design.

Flower-class corvette - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

266 built in British and Canadian yards. 36 lost. 18 lost to Uboats. 86% Survival Rate - for a commercial design armed as possible.

Funnily enough both my father-in-law and my sister's father-in-law served as stokers in the corvettes. And one of the fathers of a sister-in-law served in U-boats.

My problem with the procurement system is its incredibly long gestational period and the large number of spontaneous abortions.

 

[MTShaw]

I know this is now and that was then but this reads a lot more like fitting out the Ukrainians than the RCN.

Flower-class corvette - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

266 built in British and Canadian yards. 36 lost. 18 lost to Uboats. 86% Survival Rate - for a commercial design armed as possible.

Funnily enough both my father-in-law and my sister's father-in-law served as stokers in the corvettes. And one of the fathers of a sister-in-law served in U-boats.

My problem with the procurement system is its incredibly long gestational period and the large number of spontaneous abortions.

Me too.

As soon as the F-35 goes ioc, the Air Force should start realistic planning for what comes next. That many not be possible and likely won’t happen. This is military procurement.

 

[KevinB]

Me too.

As soon as the F-35 goes ioc, the Air Force should start realistic planning for what comes next. That many not be possible and likely won’t happen. This is military procurement.

Why bother, you have 40 years to plan for that right…