New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[SeaKingTacco]

NS,

You are an evil genius.

That is an all too plausible scenario.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Not much of a bone for LM in getting them to integrate a single new radar (for those who didn't know, SG-180 is the surface/air 2D search radar called the Sea Giraffe) into an otherwise unremarkable "combat" system. They ought to be able to do that in their sleep over the week end  ;D.

I can see, however, the government going for a crazy plan that would put towed away sonar on a hull that submarines can hear coming from three times the range of the said TAS.  :nod:              :face palm:


NS, please stop giving the government arguments - next thing you know they'll adopt the plan and state that a serving naval officer came up with it as justification.

 

[NavyShooter]

I ain't no ossifer, I's 'just' a chief. 

One of the brighter lights in this thread said a long time ago (not me) that the NSPS is not a program to build ships for the Navy.  It's effectively a job creation program, and the ships are a useful byproduct. 

Whatever ships the RCN gets will dictate the capabilities that we bring to the table...and so long as there are platforms for the MARS officers to punch their command tickets on, they'll mostly be happy.

We won't even see that much loss of real capability for a long time since they'll keep the Halifax Class on as long as possible to maintain some capability.

The final 'fix' that this solution provides is the manpower problem - 21 AOPS has less crew than 7 Halifax class - and with the maintenance being done by ISSC (in service support contract) it will also 'fix' the gaps that are appearing in technical trades (W Eng and MARTECH.)

Again, it's the last thing that the Navy wants or needs - but as an evil genius plan - it's certainly do-able.

And really, would the average member of Joe Public know any different?  Grey ship, has RADAR on top, has gun out front - no missiles because those are too expensive, get 21 ships for less than 1/3 of the original cost, yeah, less capable, but did we really NEED those Cadillac ships anyhow?  Flag gets shown overseas, we still respond to humanitarian relief missions, grey hulls built in Canada means good publicity for government, money saved goes to pay down deficit - the budget balances itself - what's the likelihood of this coming to pass...?

Maybe I should write it up in a BN to the CoC as an alternate solution...?  Then it goes on the corporate record instead of just as a crazy idea on the interwebz.  :worms: op: :temptation:

NS

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I ain't no ossifer, I's 'just' a chief. 

What makes you think that Joe Public - or even the GoC - knows the difference between a commissioned officer or a Chief Petty Officer, where "naval" officers are concerned.  ;D

 

[FSTO]

What makes you think that Joe Public - or even the GoC - knows the difference between a commissioned officer or a Chief Petty Officer, where "naval" officers are concerned.  ;D

They have no clue and don't care that they have no clue.

 

[Infanteer]

Nor should they really.  I don't really know the hierarchy in a hospital or an oil field, and I wouldn't be chided for not knowing.

 

[FSTO]

Nor should they really.  I don't really know the hierarchy in a hospital or an oil field, and I wouldn't be chided for not knowing.

Its really pretty simple and our media would know if they'd just fricken ask.

Hospital
Hospital Administrators - Doctors - Nurses - cleaning staff

Oil Field
Tool push - roughneck - labourer

(I guess I'm just more curious about things than the average bear)

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I can live with Joe Public not knowing, though they really ought to have at least a basic idea. But the GoC? Inexcusable! After debt servicing, national defence is the single largest federal budget item. They are there to manage our money and so they should have a clue. The same way that, while I don't necessarily know about hospital management, I still expect my Provincial government to know all about it.

 

[Baz]

I can live with Joe Public not knowing, though they really ought to have at least a basic idea. But the GoC? Inexcusable! After debt servicing, national defence is the single largest federal budget item. They are there to manage our money and so they should have a clue. The same way that, while I don't necessarily know about hospital management, I still expect my Provincial government to know all about it.

I think you meant department spending not federal budget item.  In the 2916-17 $311 billion budget, $48.1 was elderly payments, $36 was the health transfer, and $25 defence, followed closely by $24.15 service the debt.

 

[JMCanada]

Back to the "poll"... I would go for two new ships based on the AOPS but fitted for/as  submarine rescue and ocean-going tugs.
I think they would not need big changes from original AOPS, main ones could be
- dedicated new sonar and sensors suite
- longer endurance, so the need for increased fuel and provisions capacity.
- new, appropiate crane.
- maybe propellers or propulsion system should be also reviewed to slightly increase speed (by 3-5 knots I guess).
- perhaps they would not require to deal with 120 cm thick ice... maybe 70 cm would be fine.

  :

 

[Kirkhill]

Back to the "poll"... I would go for two new ships based on the AOPS but fitted for/as  submarine rescue and ocean-going tugs.
I think they would not need big changes from original AOPS, main ones could be
- dedicated new sonar and sensors suite
- longer endurance, so the need for increased fuel and provisions capacity.
- new, appropiate crane.
- maybe propellers or propulsion system should be also reviewed to slightly increase speed (by 3-5 knots I guess).
- perhaps they would not require to deal with 120 cm thick ice... maybe 70 cm would be fine.

  :

I'm pretty sure that those three requirements would result in an entirely new class of ship that would be pretty different to the current AOPS.  You would be resetting all the way back to the keel plate.  But that is just an informed surmise. 

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Quite right, Chris.

In fact, with the AOPS hull form, the increase in power that would be required to increase the speed by 3 to 4 knots would be off the scale. Such speed increase can only be achieved by redesigning the hull form.

 

[Stoker]

Back to the "poll"... I would go for two new ships based on the AOPS but fitted for/as  submarine rescue and ocean-going tugs.
I think they would not need big changes from original AOPS, main ones could be
- dedicated new sonar and sensors suite
- longer endurance, so the need for increased fuel and provisions capacity.
- new, appropiate crane.
- maybe propellers or propulsion system should be also reviewed to slightly increase speed (by 3-5 knots I guess).
- perhaps they would not require to deal with 120 cm thick ice... maybe 70 cm would be fine.

  :

All ships can tow, AOPS is not suitable as a ocean going tug due to its design, they will all be able to embark our SUBSAR and SUBSMASH payloads.

- dedicated new sonar and sensors suite- Sure I guess, what new sonar and sensor suite would you want?
- longer endurance, so the need for increased fuel and provisions capacity.- 6500NM range, more fuel capacity than a CPF, a fairly large provision storage capability and the ability to embark 6 20FT ISO containers. Remember these are designed to operate independently in the Arctic for up to 4 months without major support.
- new, appropiate crane.- Again they have a crane suitable to land vehicles, containers.
- maybe propellers or propulsion system should be also reviewed to slightly increase speed (by 3-5 knots I guess).- These ships are limited to the hull in regards to speed.
- perhaps they would not require to deal with 120 cm thick ice... maybe 70 cm would be fine.-Not sure what you mean, 120 is what you need in the Arctic and again that's what its designed to operate it. Are you talking about a AOPS light?

 

[Cloud Cover]

This idea of a new flight of HALIFAX class is an interesting idea. The USN has multiple flights of BURKE class, each building the previous. The only thing I can think of is the current FFG design is pretty much maxed out for weight, and changes to above waterline might threaten the stability of the ship unless they lengthened it? But as an interim project, why not?

 

[Cloud Cover]

Edit: I believe there may be abandoned plans in existence for such a ship sitting in archives somewhere: the Provincial Class AWD?  http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/canada/current/futurddg/

 

[CBH99]

Not a half bad looking ship...

15 of those with state of the art "whatever we need" might not be all that bad.  (More complicated than that, I know...)

But still.  A C2 capable AAW ship that would be decently simple to move forwards on.

 

[Swampbuggy]

Not a half bad looking ship...

15 of those with state of the art "whatever we need" might not be all that bad.  (More complicated than that, I know...)

But still.  A C2 capable AAW ship that would be decently simple to move forwards on.

Wondering about the radar stealthiness of this design, though. It’s my understanding that lots of right angles and hard edges make the vessel easier to find with radar, but I’m not an expert. I suppose you could clean that up, a little, with out much of a major change to the plans?

 

[Stoker]

Wondering about the radar stealthiness of this design, though. It’s my understanding that lots of right angles and hard edges make the vessel easier to find with radar, but I’m not an expert. I suppose you could clean that up, a little, with out much of a major change to the plans?

There's a reason why we are not building more Halifax Class or variants of the Class. Its outdated with no stealth characteristics.

 

[Dale Denton]

I'm sure any ship designer/engineering firm could clean some of the exterior up somehow...

What could you reasonably change to a CPF to make modern (again) enough through to the late 2020s? How can you re-configure a CPF for C2 and AAW that could be done as a moderate refit?

Even if the platform design dates back to the 80s.

 

[Stoker]

I'm sure any ship designer/engineering firm could clean some of the exterior up somehow...

What could you reasonably change to a CPF to make modern (again) enough through to the late 2020s? How can you re-configure a CPF for C2 and AAW that could be done as a moderate refit?

Even if the platform design dates back to the 80s.

In my opinion the somehow is to design an entirely new hull and ship. the design is over 30 years old. There are lots of advances in warships that the hull won't support.