New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Kirkhill]

Maintaining capability by spacing out replacements is good strategy.

The problem is, as MilEME09 points out, we have a significant backlog due to the absence of a replacement plan in the past.

It would be good strategy to maintain the NSP plan but take up FFS (is it only me that can't look at that without laughing  ) and Davie on their offer to create a leased fleet for the near term to solve CCG and naval support problems.

I am betting that if FFS had a fleet of Asterixs and Oilers and perhaps a couple of LPD type transports that they could find good contracts with the UN and other navies on the open market.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Plus the picture of Seaspan only captures one of their facilities

http://www.seaspan.com/wp-content/uploads/drydock2.jpg

http://www.seaspan.com/wp-content/uploads/65-16-182-1024x683.jpg

 

[Underway]

Australia's purpose built submarine facility.  It may become useful in the future to have this capability in Canada, especially if the NW Passage becomes a viable shipping route.  If we decide to go this route, we are better placed with the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy than we would be without it.

Australia is payed for it through the nose to get their sub capability going.  And are paying again to get it refurbished/updated for the new subs. It might be worth it for us to do the same if we get 9-12 subs and plan on having a strategic submarine capability investment. But personally in this case better just to have someone else build them for much cheaper, or alternatively do the build elsewhere and finish up here with specific equipment that can be installed after the sub is built.

 

[Underway]

Reading the most recent issue of CDR and in the interview with the Shadow Minister for National Defence it's mentioned (by the Shadow Minister) that the current CSC contract underwent a redraft to only guarantee 3 ships for the designer.  It's inferred that the next 12 ships might be a different design, leading to a potential AAW ship design and a seperate company doing the GP design.  There has been no discussion on this I can find anywhere.  The accusation indicates that this one of the reasons a number of bids were not submitted.

Is this opposition bluster or is there some meat to this?

 

[Uzlu]

Reading the most recent issue of CDR and in the interview with the Shadow Minister for National Defence it's mentioned (by the Shadow Minister) that the current CSC contract underwent a redraft to only guarantee 3 ships for the designer.  It's inferred that the next 12 ships might be a different design, leading to a potential AAW ship design and a seperate company doing the GP design.  There has been no discussion on this I can find anywhere.  The accusation indicates that this one of the reasons a number of bids were not submitted.

Is this opposition bluster or is there some meat to this?

Bidders have also quietly expressed concern that the initial order will only involve three warships, which are meant to replace the navy's command and control destroyers.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/frigate-design-problems-1.4181542

Maybe Gibbs & Cox was hired by Irving to help design the twelve general-purpose frigates?

 

[Cloud Cover]

I will contact Bezan office tomorrow. If he’s stating this in public, there will be a referring document.

About the CDR magazine, nice ad in there from PALAerospace on the 8Q300. I wish them much success.

Also, on page  51 and 78 there is a new GGI of AOPS (Looking good) and the bow assembled to the rest of the ship on HdW.  That is indeed a monstrous ship!

 

[Underway]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/frigate-design-problems-1.4181542

Maybe Gibbs & Cox was hired by Irving to help design the twelve general-purpose frigates?

Haha no.  Gibbs & Cox audited the RCN's requirements if I recall correctly.  That, from what I hear is a bizarre story in an of itself thanks to ITAR.

 

[Uzlu]

Haha no.  Gibbs & Cox audited the RCN's requirements if I recall correctly.  That, from what I hear is a bizarre story in an of itself thanks to ITAR.

They are doing a lot more than that.  http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/1447901-u.s.-only-the-rule-for-some-irving-navy-contract-jobs

 

[Underway]

Cool.  I'm not surprised, ITAR can place burdens in odd places.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Seeing as many of the big wheels at ISI are retired USN Admirals, it doesn't shock me at the rules and connections to US Contractors.

 

[Czech_pivo]

http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/nouvelles-news/2017-11-27-eng.html

 

[Kirkhill]

It'd be disconcerting to some if Canada could build ships at Davie prices instead of Gibbs & Cox prices.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Reading the most recent issue of CDR and in the interview with the Shadow Minister for National Defence it's mentioned (by the Shadow Minister) that the current CSC contract underwent a redraft to only guarantee 3 ships for the designer.  It's inferred that the next 12 ships might be a different design, leading to a potential AAW ship design and a seperate company doing the GP design.  There has been no discussion on this I can find anywhere.  The accusation indicates that this one of the reasons a number of bids were not submitted.

Is this opposition bluster or is there some meat to this?

I think it's set up for flights of ships; the first few ships will have the learning curve so you will want your milestone payments structured accordingly. That way you can negotiate the cost/payment methods differently once they hit their stride and develop some kind of performance incentives that make sense once you have some experience. Because of the general methodology of how they build the ships now you almost want to look four-six ships down the line before you change variants so you can make sure you allow enough time for design changes to get planned and incorporated into the modules. They will be building parts of three ships at a time and stuff like cable hangers, penetrations etc get done at the module level so there is a lot of lead, or big impacts from rework (including creating backlogs on the production line).

Depending which company wins then there may already be different variants available, so that shouldn't be an issue, unless we do something clever like pick a totally different weapons system that has quite different interface requirement (ie different cooling, power, structural reinforcement etc) that make it more than a plug and play.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Following on from what Navy_Pete said, I heard via the rumour net, but a very well informed rumour net that I trust, the intent of the NSPS designers was a steady flow of ships over years, even decades ~ one "class" of (very large) frigates in three for our five different "batches," each somewhat different, especially in technology fits, from the others.

That "class" would begin being replaced by the first "batch" of a new class before the last "batch" of the old class finished mid-life refit.

The idea was the the Navy could keep two yards in (roughly permanent) business so that 'federal fleet' (RCN and Coast Guard) orders would smooth out the peaks and valleys of the business cycle.

The planners, I was told, always thought that there would be more than just two "big honkin' ships" and that there would be a replacement for the MCDV somewhere in a "NSPS2" but they ended their deliberations at $(CA)35+ Billion because that was seen to be "more than enough" for the Canadian public to swallow.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

That would certainly drive cost per unit up, if you were redesigning/reengineering every 3 ships....  ???

 

[MarkOttawa]

Davie--self-interestedly but with reason--weighs in on the ancient Coast Guard icebreaking fleet front (most work in fact is on Seaway and off Atlantic Canada):

Cold snap raises concerns about coast guard's aging icebreakers in the St. Lawrence
Recent equipment problems prompts calls to replace old vessels

A mechanical break that kept icebreaker Terry Fox from providing assistance to a trapped ferry between Quebec City and Lévis earlier this week is renewing calls to replace the coast guard's aging icebreaker fleet.

"The fleet of icebreakers is old," said Steven Blaney, the Conservative MP for Bellechasse-Les-Etchemins-Lévis.

The ferry was eventually towed to shore by a private company and the Terry Fox icebreaker is now undergoing repairs so that it can be up and running again.

After the incident on Wednesday, the ferry service between Quebec City and Lévis had to be cancelled Friday because of the accumulation of ice along the St. Lawrence River.

    Quebec port business at risk without new icebreakers, documents warn

"We need icebreakers," said Blaney. "Even with the existing strategy to replace the ships, the fleet will continue to grow old."

While a spokesperson for the coast guard acknowledged the aging vessels, she also defended the entity's work over the last week.

"We have deployed all of our ships and we're covering all of our key sectors," said Julie Gascon.

The criticism raised after the incident involving the Quebec City ferry also failed to mention the efforts made by the coast guard, she added.

"I really think it's a shame," she said. "Our teams are working day and night to serve clients."

Davie shipyard offers help

The Davie shipyard in Lévis has also offered to loan four of its powerful icebreakers to the coast guard to subsidize number of ships available during the winter along the St. Lawrence River.

"I think this is the perfect illustration of the pertinence of the Davie shipyard in what we're calling the debacle of the coast guard because the ships are so old," he said.

The proposed project to replace the ships would also create 300 jobs for the struggling Quebec-based company, he added. Davie Canada laid off nearly 400 employees right before the Christmas holidays...


Paul Barbeau, a naval architect, warns that simply carrying out repairs to the old icebreakers isn't enough.

"Our icebreakers have worked very hard and they are tired," he said. "There is no doubt that if we want to maintain that reliability that we have to get new ones."

"We can't continue to repair them constantly — work conditions are very difficult."

    Report raises alarm over Canada's aging coast guard fleet

Frédérick Boisvert, the spokesperson for the company, said that this week's incident shows that the coast guard's current icebreakers are at the end of their life cycle.

"The federal fleet is rusting so quickly that it can only be replaced," he said...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-icebreakers-coast-guard-aging-fleet-1.4476465

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Monsoon]

Davie--self-interestedly but with reason--weighs in on the ancient Coast Guard icebreaking fleet front (most work in fact is on Seaway and off Atlantic Canada):

Well, if Federal Fleet (as distinct from Davie, which is just the yard they work out of) can drum up more work to keep their private equity masters happy without slinging mud to try to derail existing procurements, then more power to them.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Monsoon: quite but on verra...would just be nice if some reason were applied to all this mess.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The ongoing saga, goes on, and on.....


http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/mark-norman-case-prosecutors-1.4478470

 

[MTShaw]

I'm perplexed about the number of ships Canada is building. Fo

Wow. I didn't know that was me. I was going to make a comment about making a 4 naval groups of four ships with 15 ships. I thought i'd cancelled. Oops.

M