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Navy to replace official Heart of Oak march with ‘more inclusive’ music

Me too but for different reasons.

In my opinion everything from the get go is about establishing a hierarchy and pecking order. Kids on their infantry DP1 will brag about being "rifleman number 1"

In a light infantry battalion it's rifle company -> jump company-> recce platoon -> sniper or pathfinder.

I see the "you're a warrior" stuff as low hanging fruit the CoC uses for that we'rebetter than X stuff. Years later I recall an infantry OC giving that warrior speech to us while on an American base prior to an attack. I looked over and seen the kid who didn't bring his jacket or sleeping back to the desert/mountains sitting there picking his nose and eating it and thinking to myself "yeah, right".
Fair - and in all of the services the Army (and especially the Combat Arms) that would be the most appropriate use of the term, even if I fundamentally disagree with it.

But how about the techs fixing aircraft? The FSAs processing claims? Or, in the US, the Space Force folks? I would argue that while they have a place in the overall “warfighting” culture, they are not warriors nor warfighters, and should not be termed so.

 
At the risk of slight doxxing, can confirm.

I remember a few years ago filling out surveys about whether I was treated differently, etc and I always said “no”. Because literally I was not. I don’t think I got promoted faster or slower, or got this or that task because of my ethnicity.

But, later I also realized I never really stopped and thought about the overall question - they never asked if I consciously or unconsciously changed my behaviour to fit in, like the example up top. That got me thinking about other examples that came up, and while I thought it was just “the shit you go through in training” - now I know it’s not right.
I am blue eyed and blondish, but I was still a misfit and had to have some of that beaten out of me (literally) So I to had to change my behaviour to fit in. I think everyone has to to some extent, just that some people have to do more than the others.

I hadn't given the "warrior" thing much thought, that thinking was not prevalent in my time, I think the SF types and the WWII hero's were what we wanted to emulate. Oddly enough the "warrior" concept is much more of a indigenous thing than a British thing. The British had learned long ago a organized society beats a warrior society 100% of the time. Those that emulate Sparta, don't realize they were a bunch of bisexual guys, who depended completely on slavery for their society to exist and needed the more organized City States to keep them going. Those same City States eventually defeated Sparta as well.
 
To me, the “warrior” is the antithesis of the professional disciplined soldier/sailor/aircrew that we want in our military. Warriors were a grab-bag of men a tribal society could round up on short notice and not known for their discipline. As Colin said above, the Spartan mythology is mostly that, myth.
 
I would argue that the initiative costs less in resources than, say, the peaked cap change. Most of the work would be done by musicians (who would probably love a chance to write music) and they’re already paid by the CAF.
But then we'd have to not learn lyrics to another march past most people in the RCN don't know the words to already.

Usually it goes a bit like this

"Heart of Oak .... da da da... la la la hum along...Steady boys, Steady! Ruh ruh ruh la la la, la la!"
 
Does anyone know the words to any march pasts? I always thought they were just tunes without lyrics… 🤷‍♂️
 
At the risk of slight doxxing, can confirm.

I remember a few years ago filling out surveys about whether I was treated differently, etc and I always said “no”. Because literally I was not. I don’t think I got promoted faster or slower, or got this or that task because of my ethnicity.

But, later I also realized I never really stopped and thought about the overall question - they never asked if I consciously or unconsciously changed my behaviour to fit in, like the example up top. That got me thinking about other examples that came up, and while I thought it was just “the shit you go through in training” - now I know it’s not right.

But to @Underway ’s points, I have always fundamentally disagreed with the “warrior / warfighter” term over soldier / sailor / air person. I have said this here before, but warrior / warfighter implies that their main job is to fight in a war. What happens if there isn’t a shooting war? Are they worthless then?

It's part of yet another load of ego centric, cult building BS pumped out by the US military, of course e.g., Spartans anyone? ;)

Stop Calling Us Warriors​


But there’s a problem with all this “warrior” rhetoric; warriors are not soldiers. Warriors don’t transition, because warriors are part of a class. Warriors don’t have tasks, because tasks are antithetical to the undisciplined and chaotic warrior. Essentially, stop calling us warriors.




 
It seems a lot of military and quasi-military organizations around the world have a 'dress uniform'/DEU/ 'long tunic' that looks a whole lot like their British counterpart, and don't loose a whole lot of sleep over it.

French (ignore the hat)

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American
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NJ State Police

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I suspect the French and Americans are fairly comfortable in their history. It's part of our history - own it.

Besides, ditching it all and forging new ground is the very antithesis of the meaning of the word 'tradition'; we literally can't start a new tradition. Things like names, titles, appearance, etc. can evolve over time and, if done right and for the right reasons, will stick, then be viewed as 'tradition'. Ditching something simply because it doesn't speak to everyone and therefore offends them is not the right reason.
 

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I can picture the Navy sailing around with the sailors belting out this shanty.

Uuuh we do. Along with Barretts privateers and Fairwell to Nova Scotia. North Atlantic Squadron is very passed though. If you want to really sing a song that isn't PC that's the one.
 
To me, the “warrior” is the antithesis of the professional disciplined soldier/sailor/aircrew that we want in our military. Warriors were a grab-bag of men a tribal society could round up on short notice and not known for their discipline. As Colin said above, the Spartan mythology is mostly that, myth.
I only 75% agree. I think one can have a positive AND disciplined warrior ethos (you fight because you're ordered to, not because you enjoy dishing out violence without any controls/limits/rules/discrimination) without the negative extremes of some of the out-on-the-margins behaviour of those using (hijacking?) the term you're touching on.

It's like "masculinity" as discussed in other threads. You can be masculine up to the point of being a dick, after which "toxic masculinity" enters the chat.

Admittedly, everyone may have a different line separating the positive and negative versions of both these concepts, but I think most people can recognize the worst extremes in both cases.
 
It seems a lot of military and quasi-military organizations around the world have a 'dress uniform'/DEU/ 'long tunic' that looks a whole lot like their British counterpart, and don't loose a whole lot of sleep over it.

French (ignore the hat)

View attachment 89309

Actually, I like the French hat. While it looks like a tri-service ceremony with most of the officers looking like navy (double breasted blues and white topped cap), actually the majority of them are "Service de Santé des Armées" (SSA), the French Military Medical Service including the female general (their former Surg Gen) to the left of the officer saluting and the officer with the sword.
 
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You should add that the reason why their hats all have the wide and ornate braid all around is that 95% of the people in that picture are either General Officers or Admirals. There is only one officer (female) way in the back that is "only" a senior officer.
 
Does anyone know the words to any march pasts? I always thought they were just tunes without lyrics… 🤷‍♂️

It seems a lot of military and quasi-military organizations around the world have a 'dress uniform'/DEU/ 'long tunic' that looks a whole lot like their British counterpart, and don't loose a whole lot of sleep over it.

French (ignore the hat)

View attachment 89309

American
1732476023997-png.89307


NJ State Police

View attachment 89308

I suspect the French and Americans are fairly comfortable in their history. It's part of our history - own it.
The French and American ranks, by themselves, are distinctive. Anyone with a shmick of military understanding will know that they are not British just looking at their shoulder or sleeve.

Besides, ditching it all and forging new ground is the very antithesis of the meaning of the word 'tradition'; we literally can't start a new tradition. Things like names, titles, appearance, etc. can evolve over time and, if done right and for the right reasons, will stick, then be viewed as 'tradition'. Ditching something simply because it doesn't speak to everyone and therefore offends them is not the right reason.
Actually, saying that then using an example of the US Army’s “new” Pinks and Greens is hilarious.

The original US Army Pinks and Greens, which the current one copies, was only for officers. Enlisted didn’t wear the lighter coloured pants, so none of those 3 people in the picture would be wearing it.

So, the “new” uniform is starting a new tradition.
 
It's part of yet another load of ego centric, cult building BS pumped out by the US military, of course e.g., Spartans anyone? ;)

Stop Calling Us Warriors​


But there’s a problem with all this “warrior” rhetoric; warriors are not soldiers. Warriors don’t transition, because warriors are part of a class. Warriors don’t have tasks, because tasks are antithetical to the undisciplined and chaotic warrior. Essentially, stop calling us warriors.




I just re-read that article (love it btw) and guess what, it would be considered “woke” these days. Especially the highlighted parts below:

“But Angry Staff Officer, Spartans were great soldiers who were very successful, and fought together, and lived by a strict and honorable code, and upheld traditions of brotherhood. Why shouldn’t we adopt them as a model?”

Because Spartans were an entire totalitarian society based around a warrior class whose sole purpose was violence. Yes, I know, they kept some trappings of democracy – just like the democracy of the pre-Civil War South, where slaves couldn’t vote or own property. The entire Spartan system was based on the primacy of the pure Spartan warrior who had to be supported by the helots, who were slaves owned by the state (Spartans weren’t alone in the whole “let’s own other people” thing; slavery was common in the Mediterranean world, in varying states of brutality). The helots did all the “dishonorable” jobs – like farm, fish, make tools, make clothes, make weapons and armor; basically, all the things that the Spartan warriors needed to survive. Oh, and then were was the rampant sexual abuse of young Spartan boys as part of their training, as well as the sexual abuse of helots at the hands of the Spartan warriors.

In other words, the Spartan lifestyle was essentially the opposite of everything espoused in the U.S. Armed Forces. And the Spartan state – built around a war machine – is antithetical to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” Yet we condone this type of imagery and symbolism – even as we wonder why sexual assaults and domestic violence incidents still take place within our ranks.

There’s something twisted in the way that the special operations support community – looking at you, SOFREP – glorifies anything Spartan. It’s almost as if they know exactly what Sparta stood for and have no problems with making the civilian population into a subservient class of peoples (ahem, “sheep”) that only exist to adulate and support the warrior class (“sheepdogs”). There is a cult – yeah, I said it, and I can already hear the personal attacks on me for hating freedom and patriots furiously being typed – around our special operations community, fed by book-writing retirees (who SOCOM told to STFU), civilians who want to feel like they are supporting the military, airsoft military wannabes, and seemingly every other dude out there on social media who has “MOLON LABE” superimposed over an American flag somewhere in their profile. Feeling uncomfortable yet? Well, you should, because this type of rhetoric is not only subversive to democracy but is positively antithetical to the ideals of the Founding Fathers who saw a standing professional army as one of the greatest threats to our republic.
 
The French and American ranks, by themselves, are distinctive. Anyone with a shmick of military understanding will know that they are not British just looking at their shoulder or sleeve.


Actually, saying that then using an example of the US Army’s “new” Pinks and Greens is hilarious.

The original US Army Pinks and Greens, which the current one copies, was only for officers. Enlisted didn’t wear the lighter coloured pants, so none of those 3 people in the picture would be wearing it.

So, the “new” uniform is starting a new tradition.
This was a WWII USN Aviator uniform for a bit.
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Can't be any of that. A guy from a mostly female regiment, in a mostly female occupation, definitely not named after a princess descended from one of the most power/influential colonizers in the history of the world, has told me otherwise. It's all because the RCN has an old song with a few words that are unacceptable... 😉

Edit: A song that I'm pretty sure 90% of the current sailors don't know the words to. At the last NDHQ C & PO's mess dinner when someone challenged the RCN members to sing the first verse, exactly one of us knew the words.
I am sure the majority of sailors at the coal face don't even know the Navy march, I didn't and I actually care a fair bit about traditions and history. I suspect whether it's changed or not it will just be the higher ups who notice, meanwhile everyone else will more or less not notice and carry on.
 
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