Navy Reserve Intelligence

[TheSam]

MARS: Thank you very much for your time and everything! I just read your post -- I'll call the recruiter first thing on Monday.

 

[Antoine]

I understand that candidate with strong background in humanities is preferred for this trade and it makes total sense.
I was wondering from your experience if someone with a strong scientific background could be usefull to the Navy Reserve Intelligence?
I don't mean on the technical knowledge point of view but more on the analytical skill, methodology and so on learn from the science path.
I've called my potential future unit, so I'll meet them this week but I was curious about your advice on this?

Thanks

 

[ltmaverick25]

They say they prefer history, political science, and the like, but that wont preclude you if you have a science degree.  Int is hard to pigeon hole to a certain degree type.  I know several naval reserve Int officers that have science degrees.  Your biggest concern will likely be finding an available position.

 

[The_Dictat]

Why does everyone want to be an Int Officer?  Do anybody know about Int Operators (NCMs)?  NCMs are the ones handling the information, sort it out, do the data entry into the database, do the analysis and prepare the briefings.  Int Op do briefings and debriefings and so on.  It is a very rewarding trade.

Int Officers do some analysis but their main job is to coordinate the intelligence effort with other CF elements, plans, manage the int cell.  It is a management position!!!

So for people wanting to join the intelligence branch have to ask themselves what they want to do.  Manage an intelligence cell? or do the actual data processing and analysis?

Oh one more thing, Recruiters have a tendency to orient people that have university degrees towards the officer corps.  But Int Branch needs such graduates at the NCM level too!!!
Cheers

 

[kratz]

TD,

To assist in answering part of your question, the Naval Reserve does not have the Int Op MOC, only the Int O positions.

 

[ltmaverick25]

Why does everyone want to be an Int Officer?  Do anybody know about Int Operators (NCMs)?  NCMs are the ones handling the information, sort it out, do the data entry into the database, do the analysis and prepare the briefings.  Int Op do briefings and debriefings and so on.  It is a very rewarding trade.

Int Officers do some analysis but their main job is to coordinate the intelligence effort with other CF elements, plans, manage the int cell.  It is a management position!!!

So for people wanting to join the intelligence branch have to ask themselves what they want to do.  Manage an intelligence cell? or do the actual data processing and analysis?

Oh one more thing, Recruiters have a tendency to orient people that have university degrees towards the officer corps.  But Int Branch needs such graduates at the NCM level too!!!
Cheers

In the naval reserve land there are no such thing as Int Ops.  There are only Int Os.  In my opinion that is a huge short coming and you cant fully develop the trade until you bring in the NCM side of things.  Apparently NAVRES is considering inventing a Naval Int Op trade in the next few years, but until that happens, if the naval reserves is your aspiration, officer land is the only option for aspiring Int guys.

But to answer your question, I like the management side of things.  For me, thats the sort of dynamic that would keep any job interesting.  Add on the fact that Int is alot of fun in itself, you have a perfect combination!

 

[The_Dictat]

My rant about everybody wanting to be Int O was aimed at all elements not just navy.  I just expressed my PRes recruiter-side frustration. 

As for NAVRES Int ops, I was unsure of that.  Isn't there a NCAGS trade or something like that open to NCMs that is real close to Int?


Cheers

 

[decko]

Reserve NCMs closest option would be NCIOP or NAVCOM


dc

 

[kratz]

NCAGS was rolled into the Nav Int O training. DC beat me to it. The closest Nav Res NCM MOC that works in the operational int units are NCI OPs.

 

[Sailorwest]

My rant about everybody wanting to be Int O was aimed at all elements not just navy.  I just expressed my PRes recruiter-side frustration. 

As for NAVRES Int ops, I was unsure of that.  Isn't there a NCAGS trade or something like that open to NCMs that is real close to Int?


Cheers

Long ago, in the distant history of the Naval Reserve, we had a trade called Ship Con Op. That was the NCM element associated with Naval Control of Shipping. Ship Con Op's were amalgamated into NCIOP's in the early 90's and the trade dissappeared. The move from NCS, to NCAGS, and now to INTSEA, has not introduced any new NCM trades. I know that there has been some rumbling of creating INTOPS in NAVRES but not sure how much validity there is in that. I believe that NCIOPs and NAVCOMs will continue to support NCAG activities and exercises but I am not sure that there is a great need to introduce reserve INTOPS in NAVRES.

 

[ltmaverick25]

I am not sure that there is a great need to introduce reserve INTOPS in NAVRES.

We spoke about this issue at the junior officer professional development weekend in Ottawa last month during the Int round table discussions.  The reality is, the Int trade in the naval reserves is not fully developed, understood, or utilized.  That is obviously a problem that the Int guys are trying to fix.  Should this task be accomplished the Int Os would be overwealmed without any Int Ops.  This would be akin to one MARS officer trying to run the entire ship by himself.

As was mentioned, Int Os manage the Int process and brief senior command.  But right now thats just not happening in the naval reserve.  Quite frankly, the Int Os are doing the same work that privates in the army Int world normally do and thats just not effective.  Its also the reason why Int Os often have a hard time justifying their existence to their MARS counterparts.  The trade is in its infancy and thus far has been without any clear direction. 

The good news is, based on what was discussed at the conference, this should all be changing in the next few years.  The impression I was left with is that Int Ops could start MOC training in the naval reserves within two years and hopefully thats true.  Because the day NAVRES decides to truly employ Int, without Int Ops to support this endevour is going to be a very messy day.

 

[Sailorwest]

We spoke about this issue at the junior officer professional development weekend in Ottawa last month during the Int round table discussions.  The reality is, the Int trade in the naval reserves is not fully developed, understood, or utilized.  That is obviously a problem that the Int guys are trying to fix.  Should this task be accomplished the Int Os would be overwealmed without any Int Ops.  This would be akin to one MARS officer trying to run the entire ship by himself.

As was mentioned, Int Os manage the Int process and brief senior command.  But right now thats just not happening in the naval reserve.  Quite frankly, the Int Os are doing the same work that privates in the army Int world normally do and thats just not effective.  Its also the reason why Int Os often have a hard time justifying their existence to their MARS counterparts.  The trade is in its infancy and thus far has been without any clear direction. 

The good news is, based on what was discussed at the conference, this should all be changing in the next few years.  The impression I was left with is that Int Ops could start MOC training in the naval reserves within two years and hopefully thats true.  Because the day NAVRES decides to truly employ Int, without Int Ops to support this endevour is going to be a very messy day.

I think what needs to be kept in mind here is that despite the views of some, NAVRES is not an operational command and itself has little need for it's own INT organization. It is likely that reserve INT O's will provide support to operations units (ships, NCAGS, PSU) or working in the INT organization at the MARPAC/MARLANT level. There is no need to have INT OPS in the operation units and I don't believe there is a great demand of them in the formation organizations beyond the current Reg Force crowd. I have seen nothing that would suggest that we are about to create a standing Naval Reserve INT Cell, nor should we. 

I will agree with you that there has been very little direction given as to what to do with  INT O's and that that the Intelligence part of the trade is very much in its infancy. In my mind, we re-branded NCAGS into INT without having fully thought out what they were to do (certainly true for part timers) and now we are trying to find roles for them. What you are suggesting is that we create another trade without having fully thought out why we need to do so. Just because the  reserve organization doesn't have them, doesn't mean that we need to have them. We don't have electricians or NET's either but they would be very valuable for us as the MCDV's can't do anything without them.

 

[ltmaverick25]

That begs the question though, how can you be an Int O without an Int Op?  Again I think this comes back to the lack of understanding of exactly what it is that Int staff does.  Based on the conversations ive had with Naval Int Os that have been employed out in the Op centers, PSU's ect...  The feedback is that they are not being employed to their full potential.  One Int O argued that she had about 15 minutes worth of work and responsibility per day in a 12 hour shift.  There is obviously a two way problem in that scenario.  The leadership did not employ this person effectively, and the Int O was certainly not proactive enough in rectifying the problem.

However, its this sort current state of affairs that is extremely problematic for the Navy as a whole.  In our current state of affairs, no we dont need Int Ops, but one could also argue we likely dont need Int Os either.  While deployed, or working full time contracts, Int Os are still not being employed properly.  But how could they be?

How can you employ an Int O without Int staff? 

Int, when done properly is a huge undertaking that requires a team, not just one person.  For example, whos going to collate, plot, perform intial analysis, log all ingoing and outgoing traffic, respond to RFIs, do equipment briefs, conduct country/faction analysis (the list goes on and on) while the Int O actually performs their proper function?  Again, can an Int O even do his or her job, if the above tasks are not also being completed?  Thats why our Int Os are doing the job of privates and corporals, because there are no NCMs doing the job, and the job has to start somewhere.  An Int Os role cant be conceptualized without the underlying staff.

Having Int Ops at the NRD level allows for all of the above to take place.  It also gives the navy increased intelligence capabilities.  Especially insofar as PSU ops are concerned.  Ideally each boat, or each foot patrol would be breifed and debriefed prior to and upon return of their sorties.  Whos going to do that?  I know that the OOW has routine briefing responsibilities, but, can the OOW reasonably perform his duties while tending to everything else at the same time?  PSU Ops would also require a certain degree of terrain analysis.  These are all functions that should happen at the NCM level.

If you have Int cells at each NRD, you now have staff that the Int O can lead.  You now have the capabilities locally that could be required in the event of an unforseen emergency.  You also have the capability do develop legitimate, relevent, unclassified Int products that can be provided to the comand staff of each NRD.  And then, of course should the reg force require augmentation in the Int Op area, NAVRES would have something they could bring to the table.

These are all items that were tossed around at this meeting.  Based on what was said, it was my understanding that Cdr Henault had already been working on measures to address these issues and that changes would be recomended and implemented with the aim of bringing about the above things mentioned.  Its possible that I could have interpreted incorectly, but I would not be surprised to see these items on the table in the near future.

As far as rebranding NCAGS into Int, that was another problem that was raised.  The Int O community is worried that the NCAGS capability is slowly being lost and in their mind it shouldnt be.  To be honest, NCAGS is an area that I have no experience or training with so I cant really offer any comment there, but it does seem to be an akward combination that has caused more confusion then it has increased any degree of operational effectiveness.

 

[Sailorwest]

I'm not sure this subject can be pursued much futher without possibly violating some COC on sensitive information. Suffice to say that the Role of the Naval Reserve is to support the Navy with manning for operational and support functions where required, specifically in MCDV's, PSU's, PIDT, and NCAGS units. There is no operational role for the Naval Reserve and for the NRD's outside of that. All of the above functions would be employed for one of the operational formations and would acquire intel from and report to, those organizations.

Although a INT O would be useful in those functions, providing briefs, interpreting INT documents, briefing and debriefing personnel, the need to have a group of INT OPs as a staff for any of those units just seems to me to be excessive. The ships currently gather and submit intel and would be briefed by N2 staff prior to a deployment when required. Although the PSU would likely have an INT O on staff, the volume of INT related issues is generally not that significant. At the NRD level, again there is no operational role so what intel would be required? Public Affairs would more likely be the liaison and source of information.

In all honesty, I think that we are reverse engineering the INT role. We created the position, trained the staff and converted existing qualifications, and are only now turning to the concept of what they are supposed to do as Intel Officers, beyond Naval Control and Guidance to Shipping. It reminds me of the time when we created a whole bunch of MarEng officers, only to realize that they had no real role in the Naval Reserve and then had to re-badge them into MARS or NCAGS.

 

[Journeyman]

....the Role of the Naval Reserve is to support the Navy ....There is no operational role for the Naval Reserve and for the NRD's outside of that.

I know of several Reserve sailors currently in Afghanistan who may disagree with you; I suggest there is a requirement for Reserves, regardless of uniform colour, to support national-level requirements as well. And these people need to be trained. Are you saying that it's not their unit's responsibility to ensure deploying personnel are adequate to the task?

 

[dapaterson]

... which speaks to a larger question:  how should we force generate from the Reserve Force for "purple" requirements like Int?  Army and Navy both have Int Os; Army has Int Ops in the Reserve Force; but what is needed to feed other requirements such as CDI?

Too often requirements are viewed in isolation, in environmental stovepipes.  Which is a poor way to build capability.

 

[ltmaverick25]

I'm not sure this subject can be pursued much futher without possibly violating some COC on sensitive information. Suffice to say that the Role of the Naval Reserve is to support the Navy with manning for operational and support functions where required, specifically in MCDV's, PSU's, PIDT, and NCAGS units. There is no operational role for the Naval Reserve and for the NRD's outside of that. All of the above functions would be employed for one of the operational formations and would acquire intel from and report to, those organizations.

Although a INT O would be useful in those functions, providing briefs, interpreting INT documents, briefing and debriefing personnel, the need to have a group of INT OPs as a staff for any of those units just seems to me to be excessive. The ships currently gather and submit intel and would be briefed by N2 staff prior to a deployment when required. Although the PSU would likely have an INT O on staff, the volume of INT related issues is generally not that significant. At the NRD level, again there is no operational role so what intel would be required? Public Affairs would more likely be the liaison and source of information.

In all honesty, I think that we are reverse engineering the INT role. We created the position, trained the staff and converted existing qualifications, and are only now turning to the concept of what they are supposed to do as Intel Officers, beyond Naval Control and Guidance to Shipping. It reminds me of the time when we created a whole bunch of MarEng officers, only to realize that they had no real role in the Naval Reserve and then had to re-badge them into MARS or NCAGS.

I would suggest that Int is proactive and not reactive.  In this light, WRT PSU ops, there would be a huge role for Int staff to play.  However, if you only have one INT O, and no Int staff, it would not really be possible for that lone Int O to play much of an effective role at all.  In this situation, your Int O is likely only telling you things, or confirming things that you would already know.  You would essentially have no tactical Int support whatsoever.  Relying on whatever information got pushed down to you from higher formation, relayed to you by the Int O, or perhaps, whatever your boat crews managed to observe ect...

But if you had an entire Int staff available to you, you would have the luxury of being alot more proactive with your threat assessments.  Who are the bad guys?  What are their capabilities?  What are their intentions?  How can they stop you from accomplishing your mission?  Your Int O, should help you formulate those questions, and in turn, lead the intensive process involved in answering them.  Its a job that he simply could not do properly alone.

I remember when I first joined army intelligence as an NCM, prior to the 2006 move to Khandahar.  I was told that one of Int's biggest challenges was trying to justify themselves to command staff and demonstrate the value they could add.  Alot of Army officers based on what I was told, were simply not convinced of a need for a robust INT capability, though it was certainly moving in the right direction, when our guys started getting shot at, this line of thinking changed extremely fast.

Thankfully, as an element, we havent been getting shot at the same way the army has of late.  However, this could change in the future, and if it does, were going to want robust capabilities already in place. 

I could think of several different legitimate ways an Int cell type of structure could operate in an effective manner at the NRD.  Not to mention all the joint training we could undertake with army and air elements.  The joint structure already exists with the JTF centers having been stood up. 

For example, I remember participating in an Int excercise, the scenario was an amphibious landing to deploy peace support forces.  We had a Navy Int O on hand and he handled the martime threat to the landing, (the Navy Int O had to rely on Army Int Ops for support because he didnt have any of his own) army guys were busy concerning themselves with the threat after the troops had landed ect...  We all learned quite a bit from each other and it proved to be a fruitful experience.  Based on the way conflicts are changing, and the ways in which we are chosing to engage ourselves, I would predict an even greater requirement for cross element cooperation and understanding WRT to INT moving forward.  It will help a great deal to have more then just one Int O to bring to the table.

 

[ltmaverick25]

I know of several Reserve sailors currently in Afghanistan who may disagree with you; I suggest there is a requirement for Reserves, regardless of uniform colour, to support national-level requirements as well. And these people need to be trained. Are you saying that it's not their unit's responsibility to ensure deploying personnel are adequate to the task?

To be fair, NAVRES gives the NRDs very specific mandates.  To the best of my knowledge, none of which concern wider national aims.  The reason for this, is that although NAVRES in of itself is not an operational command, its for better or worse been placed in a de facto situation.  NAVRES is desperately, continuously scrambling to force generate crews for MCDVs, and where Int is concerned, officers for the operations center on the coasts.  On top of that NAVRES runs all of its own courses, has to generate staff ect...  Because of this dynamic, my impression from the NAVRES rep that came to visit our unit in the fall, was that, any pers available for full time employment were going to be specifically pushed into roles supporting the above.  Although it was not stated in black and white, the impression I was left with is that NAVRES does not like to employ its pers outside of "the establishment" and seeking employment in that regard was discouraged.

As an example, the Int officers on the Ottawa trip were told point blank by representatives there, that they were in dire need of Int Os and were asking us to apply for employment with them.  When I went to look at NAVRES's site, the only Int O specific contracts being advertised were for the coasts.

 

[Sailorwest]

I know of several Reserve sailors currently in Afghanistan who may disagree with you; I suggest there is a requirement for Reserves, regardless of uniform colour, to support national-level requirements as well. And these people need to be trained. Are you saying that it's not their unit's responsibility to ensure deploying personnel are adequate to the task?

By adequate to the task, are you saying trained for a role such as Intel? To that extent, I would agree. If someone is going to deploy to an operational theater, they should be properly qualified for the task they will be employed in.  Although I do know that some of the people who went as HUMINT, were not INT officers at all. 

 

[Sailorwest]

... which speaks to a larger question:  how should we force generate from the Reserve Force for "purple" requirements like Int?  Army and Navy both have Int Os; Army has Int Ops in the Reserve Force; but what is needed to feed other requirements such as CDI?

Too often requirements are viewed in isolation, in environmental stovepipes.  Which is a poor way to build capability.

Although I get what you say about being stuck in environmental stovepipes, I am not entirely sure of the application here. Yes, the Naval Reserve has INT O's but is still trying to find meaningful roles for them outside of NCAGS, a function has existed since WWII. If there is no valid requirement for Naval Reserve INT O's aside from NCAGS, should we be maintaining the trade simply to support Army operations or CDI (I'll admit that I have limited knowledge of what that is or how it would apply to the Navy Reserve)?