Naval Reserves in Afghanistan

[GO!!!]

So what you are saying you don't want support to get the actual combat arms types back in the field because you don't think other elements deserve incentive to go on deployments such as this?

Hey, you were the one that said they'd never use any training they did get and that their lives were'nt on the line.

If they are already trained to do their jobs, and the danger to them inside the wire is minimal, then there is no reason for either a lengthy workup training or a bundle of cash or tax incentives - they are doing the same job as back home.

BUT

IF they really are deployed to a potentially lethal theatre of operations, where they recieve significant extra pay and bonuses, does this not require a significant and in-depth period of workup training, just to keep them alive? especially for those who do not work for the CF on a daily basis?

Which is it? You can't have it both ways!

 

[axeman]

QUOTEING  GO !!!! and librarian ....

my avatar is Patricia  as once a Patricia always a Patricia .  {background knowledge before anyone tries to flame me ] now in the navy


Well, I know there were a relative few of hard navy guys there (   ); but to have naval and airforce uniform wearing purple tradesmen in-theatre is not unusual to this tour or any other.


"hard navy guys"   (tee hee!)


I agree go after now deretably being in the navy for 2 +yrs yes there are no hard navy guys unless its a long time army guy that has remustered.  seems it us remusters that just shake our heads and just get the job done ....


Quote
Considering the navy and air force are not there to provide boots on the ground (sometimes  think you forget thats what you signed up for) I think its better that those people that will be the ones putting their lives on the line everyday will be the ones to have the maximum training not the ones who will not use it or need to use it


You make an excellent case for only the cbt arms troops recieving danger pay in theatre - but really - nine days? - I can think of nine days training for deployment right off the top of my head for our CSS - how can this be possible?, especially considering the camp security duties that inevitably befall all soldiers?  

i dont think S--tcanning  danger pay for them but definitly a longer ramp up time say 2 months .. how can one get into proper army style fit when they dont understand the physical robustness that one req to pick up the rifle, webgear and ruck... day in day out.  even the circus bn does it . not as well or as much  but they still tighten the laces and getto the blacktop  to get out there...

 

[aesop081]

I would think that those "9 days" are job specific as their employement relates to working in ISAF HQ.....since the training is to be taken in Norway.  I would expect that their actual pre-deployement training (weapons, NBC, etc, etc......) will be longer and done back here in Canada.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Hey, you were the one that said they'd never use any training they did get and that their lives were'nt on the line.

If they are already trained to do their jobs, and the danger to them inside the wire is minimal, then there is no reason for either a lengthy workup training or a bundle of cash or tax incentives - they are doing the same job as back home.

BUT

IF they really are deployed to a potentially lethal theatre of operations, where they recieve significant extra pay and bonuses, does this not require a significant and in-depth period of workup training, just to keep them alive? especially for those who do not work for the CF on a daily basis?

Which is it? You can't have it both ways!

GO...is there really a point of discussing this with you? You made your disdain known a long time ago for Air Force, Navy, and Reserve Personnel. Your opinion has not changed in that time nor will ever change so I will do you the favour of not wasting my time or yours.

 

[navymich]

This msg has just come out:

R 291803Z DEC 06
FM MARPACHQ ESQUIMALT
TO AIG 2615
AIG 2616
XMT HMCS OTTAWA
BT
UNCLAS J12 3392
SIC WAA
SUBJ: INCREMENTAL TASK SOLICITATION - TASK FORCE AFGHANISTAN ROTO 3
1. MARPAC HAS BEEN INCREMENTALLY TASKED TO PROVIDE A CANDIDATE IN
SUPPORT OF TASK FORCE AFGHANISTAN ROTO 3. DETAILS ARE AS FOL:
2A. POSN: 315679
B. POSN TITLE: SO2 J1 OPS 1
C. RANK: LT(N)
D. MOC:  ANY
E  COMPONENT: REG OR RES FORCE
F. DATES: 15 APR 07 - 22 FEB 08
PAGE 2 RCWEWLA5014 UNCLAS
G. QUAL REQR: MARS OFFICER WITH POST CERTIFICATE OF COMPETENCY LEVEL
II
AT A MINIMUM
3. PREDEPLOYMENT TRG TO COMMENCE 20 FEB 07 IN KINGSTON, ON
4.INTERESTED PERS TO FWD THEIR NAMES THROUGH THEIR DIVISIONAL SYSTEM
WITH CO CONCURRENCE TO THE UNDERSIGNED NLT 15 JAN 07. THE TASKING
WILL
BE ASSIGNED ON A FIRST COME FIRST SERVE BASIS
5. MARPAC POC: CPO2 LOEPER, J12-1, 3-2019
BT



It actually makes mention of pre-deployment training, while the other one I posted a couple of days ago does not.  I also went through other msgs similar to that above, that also states the timing for PDT.  The trg that was indicated on the earlier msg (in Norway) was only listed on one position which leads me to believe that it is job specific trg, and that PDT was simply left off of the msg itself.

 

[Journeyman]

....and I was referring to the ability to create a competent analyst on a 9-day course - - especially on a NATO-school course, which have a tendency to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator to avoid hurting allies' self-esteem.

I wasn't referring to any other pre-deployment training.

 

[GO!!!]

GO...is there really a point of discussing this with you? You made your disdain known a long time ago for Air Force, Navy, and Reserve Personnel. Your opinion has not changed in that time nor will ever change so I will do you the favour of not wasting my time or yours.

Can your emotional response and answer the question - we both know CSS and the other elements are essential to the mission - I asked a valid question in reference to minimal workup trg.

 

[Sig_Des]

The sad thing, is, and to be perfectly honest, I agree with GO....that to DAG green for Afghanistan, (At least for TAVs with CFSU (O) ) is a Pistol PWT1, C7 PWT1, CBRN, Fire Fighting (use this extinguisher for that fire), and SJA Standard First Aid.

I've seen many run through this, Navy, Air Force, and ourselves, Army. On my team, we do it to constantly keep our DAG status Green.

Now, I look at the messages for some of those position, and IIRC, they mentioned working out of Kabul. Now what about when they travel between areas? Convoys, etc. No TCCC, no contact drill, no IED drill, no ambush drills. They can't take the C6. Dead weight that may end up being just that.

Myself, I know that while I'm going to be in theater, I may not be trained on as much as others, but I want to be able to perform in a situation. That's the nature of the beast with Combat Support. You may not see some of those situations, but on the other hand, you may be required to perform.

IMHO, if the 9 days is pre-dep training...not sufficient.

 

[aesop081]

IMHO, if the 9 days is pre-dep training..

The message traffic already established that it is not. We have already deployed personel from this base on very short notice who received C7, 9mm, CBRN and a few other things only. I'm not familiar with TCCC but are you telling me that every single soldier deploying gets this training ?  Dont get me wrong, i am not against more training but is creating maditory training for ttades not likely to need it ( notice i didnt say "wont need it") limiting our ability to quckly fill short-notice positions?

Just currious

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Perhaps some light amidst all the heat here.

NATO HQs are all validated at Stavanger in Norway.  That's the 9 days quoted in the first tasking message.  This is NOT predeployment training, but instead is a "team-building" exercise aimed at HQ ISAF and some other NATO formations.  The second tasking message specifically states that predeployment training will begin in Kingston on 20 Feb.

The Army remains the lead force generator for Afghanistan and sets the predeployment training standards.  There is, as some have mentioned, a minimum standard for anyone deploying to theatre that must be followed.  The JTF HQ (the Canadian HQ) will undergo separate training in Kingston and potentially at CMTC (hence the 20 Feb "report to Kingston" date quoted).

Ergo, an individual augmentee would be expected to report to the Army lead force generator for individual predeployment training, including the BFT, weapons, first aid, mission specific training, and all the other hoops.  This typically takes 14 days or more.  Most units, the JTF HQ included, have a collective training requirement to meet battle task standards set by the CLS.  This adds additional training days  In the case of NATO individual augmentees, that collective training requirement is fulfilled in Norway when they join their NATO units.

People need to relax.  There is a well-established system in place for predeployment training - led by the Army.  In the past, there has been much kicking and screaming about attending this training from other force generators, but that's been muted as of late given the nature of the mission in theatre.  The fact of the matter is that the Army's been carrying the lion's share of the burden on the ground in Afghanistan, and if a Navy officer wants to step up to be the J1 Ops and relieve us of assigning a Company 2iC to perform that function, more power to him/her.

 

[aesop081]

Thanks Teddy, individual and small group augmentations have been going on for a while so i knew there had to be a well run system for dealing with training these people.

and if a Navy officer wants to step up to be the J1 Ops and relieve us of assigning a Company 2iC to perform that function, more power to him/her.

Now how about a job for a MCpl sensor oprator like ..... oh i dont know........ME ?

;D

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Thanks Teddy, individual and small group augmentations have been going on for a while so i knew there had to be a well run system for dealing with training these people.

Now how about a job for a MCpl sensor oprator like ..... oh i dont know........ME ?

;D

Careful what you wish for...it's wabbit season and we're on the hunt...

 

[aesop081]

Careful what you wish for...it's wabbit season and we're on the hunt...

Well aware.......In case you are wondering, I'm the one with the sign that say "here i am" in bright orange with flashing lights  ;D

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Thanks for the clarification TR, much appreciated.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Well, I know there were a relative few of hard navy guys there (  ); but to have naval and airforce uniform wearing purple tradesmen in-theatre is not unusual to this tour or any other.

GRRRRRRRR lol I hate that designation... hard sea soft sea crap grrrr its worth about as much as a bosn's C7 handling drills...

 

[axeman]

 
off topic
ah yes the bos'n's handling skills.  : is that why EVERY WPN i've seen here in the navy  would have earned a ARMY person a long list of charges . i mean whats so difficult about oiling wpn's ? for some reason the navy just doesnt grasp that in the end, the weapon is the reason for the soldier /sailor / airman to be where they are .

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

 
off topic
ah yes the bos'n's handling skills.   : is that why EVERY WPN i've seen here in the navy   would have earned a ARMY person a long list of charges . i mean whats so difficult about oiling wpn's ? for some reason the navy just doesnt grasp that in the end, the weapon is the reason for the soldier /sailor / airman to be where they are .

can't they?  I know the last 3 NBP teams I have been on weapon maintenance after was always a priority, never a rusty weapon to be seen. Methinks you heard far too much BS. Or amybe your ship is not keeping up with what they are suppose to be doing

 

[aesop081]

I know for my part...the Mk46 Mod 5 lightweight ASW Torpedo  is the reason why i'm here !!!

 

[navymich]

Concur ex-D.  I know I heard more grumbling in the flats regularly from the junior bosns about "weapon cleaning again  :"  As for when we did an actual shoot, the cleaning and maintenance was scheduled into the flex to make sure that nothing else was scheduled to ensure that it was done.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I have volunteered for a TAV and have been accepted.  There will be training involved prior to deployment.  Both in Gagetown and Kingston.  I don't have details on the Kingston side of things as yet.  The Gagetown agenda is such as BET, Rangework, CRBN etc etc etc.  I am sure that in no way will it be any patch close to what is covered by those who will be outside of the wire, I am not going there for that role.  If I was going to be expected to be on the line conducting patrols etc, then I am sure the Army would see that I am given the tools and training to safely conduct any such work/role.  Further, I am sure that their training system has enough on it's plate already without taking up valuable time and space with perhaps unecessary effort.  They have been at this for some time now and I trust those in the decision making positions have a grip on who needs what training and to what extent.