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Native protesters

Brad Sallows said:
Determination of "status" will either become even more politicized than it is now due to intercultural marriages or else "status" will cease to be meaningful/sustainable, and I expect reserve villages in remote areas to become ghost towns unless people are paid to live there (and even that may not be enough).

Brad: Hate to break it to you but the issue of status is a done deal thanks to Bill C31.  Intercultural marriage cannot aborgate or derogate status. As of 1987, the politics are a non-contender when all FN Bands decided their membership criteria. Your naysaying is about 15 years behind the hot Aboriginal issues of the day.     

I happen to come from a remote FN village and since it's been there for oh...5000 years and I suspect it'll last a few more generations but thanks for your concern.  Sheesh first, third world monikers now ghost towns, is there anything else some of you fellows would like to predict? Alien invasions? Bob Rae becoming PM? The Leafs winning the Stanley Cup this century?
 
Racial inequality, and the Laws apparent need to define us by race, are increasingly becoming hot-button issues for Canadians of non-aboriginal descent.

There is no room in a Free and Fair society for Citizen++ (especially by birth). And neither is there a place in Canadian culture for race-based governance. The Constitution mucks this up, but this will be corrected with a bit more work by those opposed to racial segregation.

The human desire to act in a tribalistic fashion is strong, but cultures such as Canada's have managed to fight against it - and flourish. While there are valid concerns regarding language, cultural continuance, and even compensation, none of this needs to be solved by racism.


Previously the courts were used to favour men over women, whites over non-whites, and this all changed - the courts will have to see that there cannot be laws that favour aboriginals over non-aboriginals. The courts cannot continue to be used to prop up bigotry and greed.


For the Native protesters in Caledonia, or any other aboriginal protest over the last couple of decades, whatever points I might agree on are lost because part of their cause is to maintain a form of Canadian apartheid.

If all treaties and grievances were settled by the government today would that end segregation (or its cover story - band membership)? No. So why should the government entrench a system that Canadians oppose and find fundamentally evil?


For myself, I find the history useful, but everything boils down to "what are we trying to achieve?". The whole process has been slow, but there is no need to rush to a bad conclusion. We should all receive real answers as to what this means to Canada, and being Canadian, before we allow further negotiations to continue.
 
Iterator said:
There is no room in a Free and Fair society for Citizen++ (especially by birth). And neither is there a place in Canadian culture for race-based governance. The Constitution mucks this up, but this will be corrected with a bit more work by those opposed to racial segregation.

Just like Quebec signing on to the Constitution was addressed by a "bit more work" by those who wanted the province inside Confederation?  Oh, wait a minute....

I think you're being a little optimistic.  The Constitution does much more than "mucking things up".  It is the fundamental, overriding law of the land, and changing it is (as Meech and Charlottetown demonstrated) a hercluean task with no guarantee of success.  As long as Part II of the Constitution codifies aboriginal and treaty rights, and successive Supreme Court decisions have only solidified them, they remain entrenched in law.  Morever, there's no indication of any trend towards reversal.  Aboriginal people are Canada's fastest-growing demographic (source - INAC data from 2003), so it would behoove us as a nation to begin serious consideration as how to address these above facts, in combination with the fact that aboriginal people are generally at a severe socio-economic disadvantage compared to the general population (source - Caledon Institute Report, "Aboriginal People and Post-Secondary Education in Canada", 2006).  Waving the issue off as a vague racial thing, that will be solved by some future Constitutional tinkering and a pervasive reversal in the thinking of our courts may sound good, but it doesn't have much basis in reality.
 
author=Iterator link=topic=52597/post-475888#msg475888 date=1162834024
Previously the courts were used to favour men over women, whites over non-whites, and this all changed - the courts will have to see that there cannot be laws that favour aboriginals over non-aboriginals. The courts cannot continue to be used to prop up bigotry and greed


I'm curious... which laws favour aboriginal people over non-aboriginal people?
 
>Brad: Hate to break it to you but the issue of status is a done deal thanks to Bill C31.  Intercultural marriage cannot aborgate or derogate status. As of 1987, the politics are a non-contender when all FN Bands decided their membership criteria. Your naysaying is about 15 years behind the hot Aboriginal issues of the day.

Hate to break it to you, but I'm not looking into the past or the immediate future.  I'm looking ahead a couple or few generations.  Do I misunderstand the critics of C-31 in that two successive generations of extramarriage (ie. one parent not registered or registerable under the act) disqualifies descendents from status, leaving it ultimately up to individual bands to decide who will and will not be qualified to exercise aboriginal and treaty rights?  If so, what irrevocable limitations are there as to who a band can and can not include on its list?  I predict that there will be people who can claim aboriginal descendancy (a simple matter of documenting a family tree), wish to identify as aboriginal and to claim both status and membership, and will be denied on the basis of rules.  That is a recipe for increased politicization.  I also predict that as time rolls on, they will outnumber the pure laine as defined by either the Act or individual bands.  A majority should be expected to eventually have its way.  Wildlife and resource management issues are going to be entirely different when every third or fourth person in some regions is free to exercise aboriginal and treaty rights; when governments step in to deal with the resultant crises, there will be further politicization.

>since it's been there for oh...5000 years and I suspect it'll last a few more generations but thanks for your concern.  Sheesh first, third world monikers now ghost towns, is there anything else some of you fellows would like to predict?

What's important isn't the span of time, but the rate of social and technological change over time.  I suppose you must recognize that for most of those 5000 years, there were very few disruptive changes.  Instead consider the sustainability and survival of villages and settlements since 1600.  Which communities don't you think would disappear if the money to support life with a modicum of modern conveniences (housing, heating, plumbing, electricity, transportation) were not provided by external sources?  Who do you anticipate will remain to preserve the blood true?

I've visited one of my "ancestral homelands" in northern Norway.  The old family farms (from my grandparents' generation) outlying the townships are deserted and used only as vacation properties by the subsequent generations, if at all.  The smallest of the communities still exist in part because of government injections of money, but more importantly because people are free to come as well as go and the newcomers will be equal members of the community.  Otherwise, I would expect newcomers to be fewer and the net outflow of the succeeding generations to the larger urban centres to be the eventual demise of the small settlements which existed for centuries past.
 
>It is the fundamental, overriding law of the land, and changing it is (as Meech and Charlottetown demonstrated) a hercluean task with no guarantee of success.

"It" (whatever happens to be the fundamental, overriding law of the land at any particular time) only seems to be immovable over the short span.  Consider the number of fundamental changes over 200 years in Canada, the US, and any European country.  It is a peculiar conceit that people believe we have stumbled across the very model of stable governance for generations to come.
 
Brad Sallows said:
>It is the fundamental, overriding law of the land, and changing it is (as Meech and Charlottetown demonstrated) a hercluean task with no guarantee of success.

"It" (whatever happens to be the fundamental, overriding law of the land at any particular time) only seems to be immovable over the short span.  Consider the number of fundamental changes over 200 years in Canada, the US, and any European country.  It is a peculiar conceit that people believe we have stumbled across the very model of stable governance for generations to come.

I don't recall stating that our current Constitutional framework was "the very model of stable governance".  For example, our Constitution still has a gaping hole with respect to Quebec.  And, indeed, it's open to amendment, as shown by the US example.  However:

a) postulating some future change is an interesting thought experiment, but that's about it (someday, the Taliban will no longer exist, but even as a truism that's not very useful for us in Afghanistan today or in the near future); and
b) there are simply no indications that the trend by government or the judiciary towards recognizing the inherent and treaty rights of aboriginals is going to be reversed, no matter how much you may wish it so.  Each Supreme Court decision that builds on the Constitution and previous decisions just solidifies the situation.

So, this being the case, one can actually work to cause the situation to  change in some meaningful way (how, I'm not sure, but then I'm not taking on that task) and/or work to accommodate the current situation.  Feel free to pursue the former; in the meantime, a very practical approach is to study the court decisions and determine how they can be implemented.  That's exactly what's happening in BC, Alberta and Ontario, in terms of the "duty to consult" when government activities may impact on treaty or aboriginal rights.
 
dglad said:
...
a) postulating some future change is an interesting thought experiment, but that's about it (someday, the Taliban will no longer exist, but even as a truism that's not very useful for us in Afghanistan today or in the near future); and
b) there are simply no indications that the trend by government or the judiciary towards recognizing the inherent and treaty rights of aboriginals is going to be reversed, no matter how much you may wish it so.  Each Supreme Court decision that builds on the Constitution and previous decisions just solidifies the situation.
...

I somewhat agree, however there does appear to be increasing unrest within the non-aboriginal community as more people become affected by the policies of segregation. As more urban treaty resolutions begin to be negotiated I believe that the favouritism towards Canadians of aboriginal descent will become more evident and contested.

If the courts or the constitution allow for one group of Canadians to be Above the Law, the rest will eventually notice the imbalance in the system. The non-aboriginal protesters at Caledonia are a natural result of this injustice. As that discontent increases, so will the need to avoid conflict.


dglad said:
...
So, this being the case, one can actually work to cause the situation to  change in some meaningful way (how, I'm not sure, but then I'm not taking on that task) and/or work to accommodate the current situation.  Feel free to pursue the former; in the meantime, a very practical approach is to study the court decisions and determine how they can be implemented.  That's exactly what's happening in BC, Alberta and Ontario, in terms of the "duty to consult" when government activities may impact on treaty or aboriginal rights.

While "duty to consult" does allow for economic activity to continue without needlessly aggravating the treaty process, it doesn't actually solve anything.

The best approach is to mobilize the government to find solutions that will not end in racial segregation. To open the process up so that there can be a full understanding of the End State; of what we want Canada to be Post-Treaty and Post-Indian Act. There is no point in blindly going from one resolution to the next.




Miss Jacqueline said:
I'm curious... which laws favour aboriginal people over non-aboriginal people?

Any continuing laws, treaties, or agreements that give rights or benefits to an aboriginal Canadian that are not the same as those for a non-aboriginal Canadian.
 
Section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982 "recognizes and affirms" the "existing" aboriginal and treaty rights in Canada. These aboriginal rights protect the activities, practice, or traditions that are integral to the distinctive culture of the aboriginal peoples. The treaty rights protect and enforce agreements in between the crown and the aboriginal peoples. Section 35 also provides protection of aboriginal title which protects the use of land for traditional practices. These rights extend to people who make up the Indian, Inuit, and Métis peoples.

Other sections of the Constitution Act, 1982 that address aboriginal rights include section 25 of the Charter and section 35.1, which sets expectations for aboriginal participation in the amendment of relevant constitutional provisions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_Act%2C_1982#Aboriginal_Rights_clause



R. v. Sparrow, [1990] 1 S.C.R. 1075
Date:May 31, 1990
Docket: 20311


....Section 35(1) of the Constitution Act, 1982, at the least, provides a solid constitutional base upon which subsequent negotiations can take place and affords aboriginal peoples constitutional protection against provincial legislative power.
..Section 35(1) is to be construed in a purposive way.  A generous, liberal interpretation is demanded given that the provision is to affirm aboriginal rights
....
 
>I don't recall stating that our current Constitutional framework was "the very model of stable governance".  For example, our Constitution still has a gaping hole with respect to Quebec.

You didn't, but your comment reminded me of the prevailing attitude I encounter in Canada - how wonderful our constitutional framework is, and why would anyone want to change it?

There is no gaping hole with respect to Quebec except a desire for special treatment.  Quebec is free to leave, just as people who feel as I do are free to leave if we're dissatisfied with status quo and prospects for change.
 
When I initiated this post, I had no idea I would end up learning so much. Thank you all for the education with regards to Native Affairs so far. Everyday I try to learn something new, but since I have been reading posts on this site, my knowledge base has increased substantially.

Thank you

Gnplummer421 :cdn:
 
    The new area of native protest is Deseronto. Unfortunately a convoy of military personnel was passing by the area on training and almost got into trouble. Wrong place at the wrong time.


http://news.sympatico.msn.cbc.ca/Mohawks+take+control+of+disputed+property+near+Deseronto/Local/ON/ContentPosting.aspx?isfa=1&newsitemid=on-deseronto&feedname=CBC_LOCALNEWS&show=False&number=0&showbyline=True&subtitle=&detect=+%3a+Provider+%3a+Region+ontario+%3a+Speed&abc=abc
 
Just in case there was ANY doubt into what these land claims are REALLY about, these two paragraphs say it all.....

Quote,
Brant said the Tyendinaga Territory Mohawks did not assert their claim earlier because Deseronto, a town of about 2,000, does not have a very vibrant economy and the Mohawks had never worried about construction on the property.

But once the development was announced, Brant said, "we felt it was necessary to make it clear not just to the developer but to the community ... that in fact they were living on and attempted to develop land that belongs to us.


.......or, we could give two rat's asses about land unless its worth MONEY!!!

Extortionistic thugs.
 
The actions of the protesters in stopping the convoy are not consistent with loyalty to Canada.  They are just damn lucky no one got killed.
 
to maintain a "traditional" lifestyle. 

Bombing around in hummers and the biggest trucks they can find. Awesome

Read that story about them stoping a convoy of driver-students. Way to kick some ass.

I'll be impressed if they try and stop a convoy in Afghanistan :)

Are these guys who blocked the road being treated any differently, legal reprecussion wise, than say *I* would be if I decided to start plating traffic marker and block traffic?
 
I look at the mess going on in caledonia and see that as a failure of dalton McGuinty to take a stand and deal with the issue. I am not fully up to speed on the Desoronto situation, so I will do some reading before i speak about that.
 
I've never been a fan of that 'we were here first' mentality.
Does that mean they shouldn't have access to modern medical advancements because they didn't develop it themselves? Of course not. Thats just silly.

Bruce I think you hit the nail right on the head.


Quote,
Brant said the Tyendinaga Territory Mohawks did not assert their claim earlier because Deseronto, a town of about 2,000, does not have a very vibrant economy and the Mohawks had never worried about construction on the property.

But once the development was announced, Brant said, "we felt it was necessary to make it clear not just to the developer but to the community ... that in fact they were living on and attempted to develop land that belongs to us.

.......or, we could give two rat's asses about land unless its worth MONEY!!!

Exactly.
When the 'land' wasn't bringing in any income who gives a shit but the minute money and development was brought into the mix they gotta make sure they get a piece.  While I don't blame them (much) for that their not doing their public image any help by how their going about it.
Belt they felt a little silly when they realised the convoy wasn't there for them.
 
Anybody who knows paleotology could argue the "first nations" are immagrants as well. They came from aisia across the behring straight during the last ice age.

It has also been proven that the early natives wiped out the mammoths, mastadons, short faced bear, american lion and other known prehistoric megafauna with excessive hunting.

Maybe we should remind them of that? Then again maybe its better if i don't hijack this thread.  ;D
 
I,  like many people,  agree that there is no easy answer to any of the First Nations problems. We need to stop the blame game and work towards the future rather than arguing over whose fault it was. I agree with ArmyRick. Perhaps we can begin by learning something besides the time of the invasion and onwards?
 
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