National Defence in Hansard

[vonGarvin]

From Friday, 27 April 2007:

ORAL QUESTIONS  ​

 
[English]
Afghanistan   
Mr. Michael Ignatieff (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Prime Minister demonstrated yet again his contempt for this House. He repeatedly rose to say that access to prisons in Afghanistan has not been denied. This bluster was contradicted right away by the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, which confirmed yet again that access has been denied for some time.
    When the Prime Minister got it so wrong, was he relying on the Minister of Public Safety's false information about the activities of Correctional Service Canada? Was he relying on advice from his incompetent Minister of National Defence? Or was he making it up as he went along?
Hon. Peter Van Loan (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform, CPC): 
    Mr. Speaker, the confusion and disappointment on the opposition benches is desperation at the loss of their issue. They were wrong. They said that the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission did not have access to detention facilities. It does. They said that Canada did not have access to detention facilities. We do.
    The fact is they keep restating false accusations again and again, and they are doing it today, after they have been proven wrong again and again. Would they please apologize to Canadians, to the troops, and stop repeating falsehoods?
Mr. Michael Ignatieff (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.):   
    Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Public Safety added a new chapter to this evolving tale of incompetence, disinformation and cover-up. He said that two Correctional Service Canada officers have had access all along to monitor the condition of detainees in Kandahar prison. Then the minister's own spokesperson contradicted him, and the ambassador of Afghanistan contradicted him, making it clear that before yesterday Canadians did not have the right to visit Afghan detainees.
    Is there anyone in the Conservative government prepared to stand up and tell the truth about this matter?
Hon. Peter Van Loan (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform, CPC):   
    Mr. Speaker, the opposition continues to restate falsehoods, although the record has been made clear.
    The reality is that the previous Liberal government, which had sent our troops into Afghanistan, had for almost the entire period it was in government no policy whatsoever on detainees. Only at the eleventh hour did it enter into an arrangement which allowed the International Committee of the Red Cross access, an arrangement that the Liberals later attacked as inadequate, their own arrangement that they entered into.
    We have since made arrangements with the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission to have access to detention facilities and now we are confirming the arrangement that we have with--
The Deputy Speaker:   
    The hon. member for Etobicoke--Lakeshore.
[Translation]
Mr. Michael Ignatieff (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, once again, these answers are disappointing.
    The top Correctional Service Canada officer on the ground in Afghanistan said that she “was not naive enough to believe” that there is no torture in Afghan prisons. It seems that the only people naive enough to believe this are the members of the Conservative government.
    For the sake of the mission, for the sake of our brave soldiers and for the sake of Canada's reputation, will the Prime Minister put an end to this circus and immediately dismiss this incompetent Minister of National Defence?
[English]
Hon. Peter Van Loan (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform, CPC):   
    Mr. Speaker, the opposition members should really stop inventing stories to help the Taliban. If they have any proof, they should put it on the table, and they should put it on the table now instead of repeating falsehoods.
    I will quote this authority:
    Therefore, it was not imprudent on the part of the government, in the context of our fight against terrorism, to side with a nation that was attacked and not become the defenders of terrorists, as the [opposition] has.
    Do they know who said that? It was Jean Chrétien.
  Ms. Ruby Dhalla (Brampton—Springdale, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, this has been a week of chaos, confusion and cover-up for the Conservatives, a political gong show at the expense of our international reputation and the Canadian military.
    The Prime Minister and his ministers have all stated that Afghan detainees were not abused. The international community has stated otherwise. Evidence of torture is undeniable.
    The government is in utter disarray. When will the Prime Minister stop misleading Canadians, tell the truth, do the right thing, and fire his Minister of National Defence?
Hon. Peter Van Loan (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform, CPC):   
    Mr. Speaker, I am stunned that the opposition continues to repeat false accusations and undermine our troops.
    I reference the following CBC report. Responding to news that Canadians have a new arrangement to inspect detention facilities, Dutch Major General Ton van Loon said he has not heard of any specific cases of abuse in the six months he has been in charge of NATO troops. “'I have not been given any reason to think that they would take place,' van Loon said”. He and his officials talk regularly with Afghan police and the country's intelligence service, and with a name like van Loon, I have to respect him.
Ms. Ruby Dhalla (Brampton—Springdale, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, the government must realize that it is in complete chaos. It is a disgrace.
    The Conservatives do not know how many detainees have been turned over to the Afghans. They do not know where they are. They do not know who is holding them. They do not even know what prisons they are in. How can they claim that these detainees were not abused?
    When will the Prime Minister show some leadership, take some action, and fire Canada's version of Donald Rumsfeld?
Hon. Stockwell Day (Minister of Public Safety, CPC):   
    Mr. Speaker, in the Sarpoza prison facility just west of Kandahar city there are 838 detainees, alleged terrorists, and 138 of them are kept in what is called the national security component of that particular facility.
    There are 40 alleged terrorists and other suspects in the national directory security facility, which is a separate one, and in the third facility, which is run by the Afghan police, there are 35. We have had access to those three facilities.
    The opposition should cease making these false allegations and should cease carrying these allegations that are brought forward by Taliban suspects because they are hurting our troops.

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More....

 

[vonGarvin]

More from 27 April 2007:

Afghanistan  ​

 
Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP):   
    Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has refused to admit that his Minister of National Defence has become a liability to soldiers on the ground in Afghanistan. The daily changing story and the chaos that the minister has created are surely grounds for dismissal.
    However, it gets worse. For over a year, the NDP has been asking Correctional Service Canada for information on the officers who supposedly report on Afghan prisons and prisoners but DFAIT and DND claim no knowledge of this and have produced no documents.
    How is it possible that three government ministers have three stories and none of Hon. Peter Van Loan (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform, CPC):        Mr. Speaker, when the opposition continues to make false allegations and repeat false allegations there is no wonder the story keeps changing. Every day we get a false allegation and then we must chase it down and put the facts on the table.
    When we keep answering false allegations with facts there is obviously a change in the story.
    If the Liberals and the other opposition parties would stop repeating and misstating falsehoods, we would no longer have this issue of changing stories because the straight truth would be coming from one source, this government.
Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): 
    Mr. Speaker, it is the government's story and information that keeps changing every day in question period.
    Correctional Service Canada has told us that it will release the documents requested today or Monday but it will not matter because the access coordinator has told us that the whole document will be blank.
    This is outrageous. The story would not keep changing had the government simply told Canadians everything. The truth will set them free.
    Why does the government continue to confuse Canadians? Why does it not simply tell us what is really going on in Afghanistan?
Hon. Stockwell Day (Minister of Public Safety, CPC):   
    Mr. Speaker, it is fascinating to hear a member of the NDP say that there was no document about our officers going over there.
    When we sent out the press release about our officers going over there, I thought the NDP members would be so proud of our corrections officers putting themselves in harm's way to go into these facilities that they would be asking for more detail. I also thought they would want to know more after I talked to the media in Afghanistan. It has been published in newspapers in Canada but I thought they would want to know even more. However, they did not ask one question about what our officers were doing over there. They believe allegations promulgated by people--
The Deputy Speaker:   
    The hon. member for Saint Boniface.
Hon. Raymond Simard (Saint Boniface, Lib.):   
    Mr. Speaker, first we were told that the Red Cross would ensure that detainees were not tortured, but the Red Cross said that was not true. Then the minister told us that the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission would do the job, but again not true. Then the minister suddenly announced, out of thin air, that he has a new deal, but again not true. Then the Minister of Public Safety stands up and says that now Correctional Service Canada is doing the job, but again that is not true.
    When will the government tell the truth, stop changing its story and fire its incompetent Minister of National Defence?
Hon. Stockwell Day (Minister of Public Safety, CPC):   
    Mr. Speaker, as we saw yesterday, when the Liberal accusations were proven absolutely false and we asked for an apology, we received nothing.
    Now the member stands and says that it is not true that corrections officers are in those facilities. That is true. I said yesterday that they had made 15 visits. They have now made 17 visits.
    I would like him to stand and take responsibility for false allegations and say that he is sorry. Those officers are there. I want him to stop maligning our corrections officers and our troops. Will he please do that?

Hon. Raymond Simard (Saint Boniface, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, the apology should come from the minister.
[Translation]
    On Monday, the Prime Minister said that detainees were not being tortured. Tuesday, he said that a new agreement to ensure their protection was unnecessary. Wednesday, however, the Minister of National Defence concluded an agreement, first with the Kandahar government, and then with the National Directorate of Security. Thursday, the Prime Minister said that he was still working on that agreement and that our Correctional Service officers had been able to see prisoners from the beginning. We all know that this is not the case.
    What is going on? What stories will they make up for us today?
Hon. Stockwell Day (Minister of Public Safety, CPC):   
    Mr. Speaker, he is again repeating things that are simply not true.
    It is the responsibility of all members, whenever they say something—especially something as important as the name of our soldiers and our federal corrections officers—to not continually repeat false statements.
    I would like the member to rise and apologize, and to say that he supports our soldiers, the very brave men and women who are on this mission.
[English]
Hon. Irwin Cotler (Mount Royal, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, the Canada-Afghan agreement on the transfer of detainees prohibited Canada from transferring detainees into a condition of torture and inhumane treatment.
    Why did the multiple reports of such treatment not immediately set off alarm bells in the government? Why did the government ignore those reports, deny those reports, censor those reports or falsely characterize them as Taliban reports when these reports were coming also from the Department of Foreign Affairs and the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission?
    The facts were clear. Our responsibilities were clear. Why did the government dissemble rather than implement our responsibilities?
Hon. Helena Guergis (Secretary of State (Foreign Affairs and International Trade) (Sport), CPC): 
    Mr. Speaker, the hon. member talks about reports. In fact, there were five reports and four out of five reports were given to the previous Liberal government. What did the Liberals do with those reports? They did absolutely nothing. They implemented a policy one month before Canadians fired them.
    When we became the new government, we took hold of that policy, implemented it and enhanced it.
Hon. Irwin Cotler (Mount Royal, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, the government's entire conduct this week has been a pattern of contradiction, misrepresentation, misinformation and disinformation, and it is still continuing, and, at its core, undermining the very integrity of the Afghan mission and our responsibility to protect our own soldiers.
    Why is the government seeking to blame everybody else but refuses to accept responsibility for its own action or inaction? Why does the new government not finally act as a responsible government and implement our responsibilities under the Canada-Afghan agreement and under international law? Why does the government not act responsibly?
Hon. Helena Guergis (Secretary of State (Foreign Affairs and International Trade) (Sport), CPC):   
    Mr. Speaker, it is Canada's new government that has acted responsibly with respect to Afghanistan.
    What Canadians deserve to know is why it is the Liberals in the opposition continually take what the Taliban, the alleged terrorists, have to say to be the gospel truth but when Canadians, brave Canadian men and women, say something they ignore it.
[Translation]
Mrs. Vivian Barbot (Papineau, BQ): 
    Mr. Speaker, over the past few days we have been treated to a real festival of contradictions. First, the Minister of National Defence called in the Red Cross and then the chair of the Afghan human rights commission. Then there was a new agreement; then there was no agreement. The latest is that Correctional Service Canada is there. However, they do not have the mandate to monitor the prisoners.
    If the government were truly dedicated to the troops and the Canadian mission in Afghanistan, then would the suitable story of the day not be the resignation of the Minister of National Defence?
Hon. Stockwell Day (Minister of Public Safety, CPC):   
    Mr. Speaker, the Correctional Service Canada officers are there to help improve the conditions in the prisons and in other institutions, to help train the Afghan officers to work in the prisons and also to verify and ensure that there is no torture. They are there. They have made a lot of visits and they will continue to do so.
Mrs. Vivian Barbot (Papineau, BQ): 
    Mr. Speaker, while the story keeps changing to suit the Minister of National Defence, the abuses continue.
    If, as the Prime Minister claims, the government has the interests of the troops at heart, what is he waiting for to stop transferring prisoners and dismiss the minister?
[English]
Hon. Stockwell Day (Minister of Public Safety, CPC):   
    Mr. Speaker, there are two things that have not changed. First, our commitment to see conditions improve has not changed, and we are seeing improvements. These are slow improvements. It is a third world system over there but we are seeing improvements.
    The other thing that has not changed is the continued flow of false allegations, where members opposite prefer to take testimony from those who are suspected terrorists, some of whom have been instructed and trained to lie, and they run with that. They will insult our military. They will automatically say that the suspected terrorists must be telling truth. They should start believing our troops.
[Translation]
Ms. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): 
    Mr. Speaker, the level of disinformation that this government has reached this week on the issue of Afghan prisoners is quite unacceptable. We have heard a myriad of unlikely stories. This government, which campaigned on openness and transparency, has used every form of manipulation.
    What is the government waiting for to pull itself together and put an end to this culture of secrecy that seems to be its trademark?
[English]
Hon. Helena Guergis (Secretary of State (Foreign Affairs and International Trade) (Sport), CPC):   
    Mr. Speaker, again, how many times must we ask the opposition why it listens to the Taliban and chooses to believe that what it says is the absolute truth? The Taliban, the alleged terrorists, are the people who are there to kill our brave men and women.
    Opposition members might just want to think about that and might just want to give our Canadian brave men and women the benefit of the doubt.

 

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Even more from 27 April 2007:

Afghanistan ​

   

Mr. Raymond Gravel (Repentigny, BQ): 
    Mr. Speaker, the Department of Public Safety stated yesterday that the correctional service officers have access to the prisoners in Afghanistan.
    Can the minister tell us how many officers are there to conduct these visits and how long they have been there?
[English]
Hon. Stockwell Day (Minister of Public Safety, CPC):   
    Mr. Speaker, as I indicated earlier, we have two corrections officers over there and they have been into three facilities presently. One is just west of Kandahar city, which is the prison facility. There are 838 prisoners there, many of them suspected terrorists. There are 138 in a separate national security section. The NDS site, the national director of security site, has another 40 people there.
     The Afghan police are being trained by our RCMP. We have never heard a word of congratulations from opposition members about the good work the RCMP is doing over there, training Afghan police. They have 35 in—
The Deputy Speaker:   
    The hon. member for Ottawa Centre.

 

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From 30 April, 2007:

Afghanistan  ​

 
Hon. Stéphane Dion (Leader of the Opposition, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, last week we had story after story after story regarding Afghan detainees.
    This weekend we had the latest story, with the government House leader saying that he has “yet to see one specific allegation of torture”.
    Allegations, Mr. Speaker, they are everywhere, and nobody except the government House leader denies the existence of these allegations.
    Will the Prime Minister finally give us a straight story? Is he going to ensure that the rights of the detainees transferred to Afghan authorities are respected?
Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC):   
    Once again, Mr. Speaker, the government has arrangements both with the government of Afghanistan and with the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission.
    The knowledge we have to this point indicates that those agreements are operating as they should, and that there have been some general allegations, as the Leader of the Opposition knows. The government of Afghanistan has committed to investigate those, and of course the Government of Canada will assist in any way that we can.
Hon. Stéphane Dion (Leader of the Opposition, Lib.):   
    Mr. Speaker, at least the government is not denying that there are allegations. That is one point.
[Translation]
    The secretary general of NATO said he supports the idea of an investigation into the allegations of torture.
    Will the Prime Minister insist that Canada and NATO take part in such an investigation, not just the Afghan government?
Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC):   
    Mr. Speaker, once again, there is no evidence to support these allegations. As I have said many times, the government takes these allegations very seriously. At the same time, we have arrangements with the government of Afghanistan and the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission. So far, these arrangements have been operating as they should. The government of Afghanistan has promised to launch an investigation and the Canadian government will help out wherever possible.
Hon. Stéphane Dion (Leader of the Opposition, Lib.):   
    Mr. Speaker, I hope it will do more than just help out. I hope it will participate fully and convince NATO to take part, as well.
[English]
    Last week, the Ministers of National Defence, Foreign Affairs and Public Safety spoke in the House. They gave a different story each time, only to be contradicted by their officials, by foreign agencies, by the media, by each other, and even by the Prime Minister. It is clear that the government has lost control of the situation.
    It is obvious that everybody has lost confidence in the Minister of National Defence, who is responsible for this mess in the first place. Does the Prime Minister still have confidence in his Minister of National Defence?
Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC):   
    Once again, Mr. Speaker, I think I have been clear with regard to these questions. The government of Afghanistan will look into those matters and will have our full cooperation.
    When we talk about changing stories, I would like to know whether the Leader of the Opposition still holds by his position that the way to solve this is to bring Taliban prisoners to Canada.
    Once again, we are in Afghanistan to keep the Taliban out of Canada.
Mr. Michael Ignatieff (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, the government this past week has shown a flagrant disregard for the truth on the detainee issue.
    On the question of who is responsible for monitoring detainees: confusion. On the question of whether Canada is funding the human rights commission: disinformation. On whether the commission did have access to the prisons: false claims. On whether a report from our embassy in Afghanistan existed: a cover-up. On whether Correctional Service Canada has actually been monitoring detainees: pure make-believe.
    When will the Prime Minister end this mismanagement and dishonesty and get some control over this mission?
Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC):   
    Mr. Speaker, I think I have already answered that question.
    I do not know what the position of the Liberal Party is here. The Liberals have changed their position several times. They said the agreements that we had in 2005 were adequate. Obviously they have not been adequate, because this government has improved those agreements.
    We will continue to move forward. The bottom line is that unlike the members opposite we do not automatically assume that any allegations made by the Taliban against Canadian Forces are the unvarnished truth.
[Translation]
Mr. Michael Ignatieff (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, given his reply to the previous question, it is obvious that the Prime Minister agrees with the official opposition that the Minister of National Defence is no longer capable of carrying out his duties. NATO is going to undertake a new offensive, insurgents are attacking our soldiers and the Prime Minister is looking for the right opportunity to get rid of his minister.
    Why is the Prime Minister not putting our soldiers ahead of his own interests? Will he immediately fire his incompetent minister?
Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC):   
    Mr. Speaker, I do not agree with the official opposition that the solution is to bring Taliban prisoners to Canada. We are in Afghanistan to prevent the Taliban from having a presence in Canada.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): 
    Mr. Speaker, a few days ago, we learned that the Liberal government knew as early as 2002 that torture was common in Afghan prisons. The prime minister at the time decided nevertheless to enter into an agreement to deliver all prisoners captured by Canadian soldiers to the Afghan authorities. If the Liberals had known since 2002 that the Afghan authorities were torturing prisoners, then the Prime Minister must have been informed when he was elected 15 months ago.
    How could he let his Minister of National Defence mislead the House by saying that he was not aware that prisoners were being mistreated?
Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC):   
    Mr. Speaker, as I just said, we have arrangements with the government of Afghanistan and the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission. Vague allegations have been made in Afghanistan for a long time. We need specific proof. The commissioner of the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission says that he has heard only rumours and that he does not report rumours to the Canadian authorities.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): 
    Mr. Speaker, there are serious allegations and therefore risks. We are told that there is no proof. Of course not; there is no investigation. The Afghans are going to be allowed to conduct their own investigation into allegations that they use torture. Reports are written by senior officials. As far as I know, there are no Taliban among the senior officials. Neither the previous government nor this one reads the reports. In my opinion, they prefer not to read them so that they can say they know nothing.
    Will all these ludicrous stories stop? Should the government not decide to stop turning prisoners over to the Afghan authorities?
Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC):   
    Mr. Speaker, the leader of the Bloc is talking about general evaluations prepared by officials with the Department of Foreign Affairs. This is not the same thing as specific cases. There are no specific cases. The Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission has informed us that there have not been any specific cases since our new arrangement was put in place. At the same time, the government of Afghanistan has committed to conducting an investigation, and the Government of Canada will assist with that investigation.
Ms. Francine Lalonde (La Pointe-de-l'Île, BQ): 
    Mr. Speaker, last Monday, the Prime Minister began the week by saying that he was aware of what he calls allegations of torture, but he referred to the February agreement, which did not allow access to detainees. On Wednesday, the Minister of National Defence announced a new agreement with access rights. On Thursday, the Prime Minister prevented him from speaking and said that no such agreement existed. He and his ministers contradicted themselves all week. There is no agreement to ensure compliance with the Geneva convention with respect to the treatment of Afghan detainees.
    Will the Prime Minister put an end to this disinformation campaign and assume his responsibilities for ensuring compliance with the Geneva convention?
[English]
Hon. Helena Guergis (Secretary of State (Foreign Affairs and International Trade) (Sport), CPC): 
    Mr. Speaker, our members of the military on the ground take their job very seriously. They will continue to do the good work they are doing and that includes conforming with international law. We believe that things are working very well on the ground.
[Translation]
Ms. Francine Lalonde (La Pointe-de-l'Île, BQ): 
    Mr. Speaker, we must be very careful. The things being said in this House are serious and frustrating. Once again, there are many contradictions and the government is trying to hide the truth. We feel this very deeply. Canada is a signatory to the Geneva convention, yet it is not respecting its obligations under that convention, and as a result, its soldiers are in danger. That is the truth, not a rumour.
    Will the Prime Minister negotiate an agreement that protects detainees? Will he put a stop to transfers until such an agreement is negotiated, thereby respecting the Geneva convention?
[English]
]
Hon. Helena Guergis (Secretary of State (Foreign Affairs and International Trade) (Sport), CPC):        Mr. Speaker, it is interesting. I note that the hon. member has herself decided to take the word of Taliban detainees as the gospel truth.
    Our members of the military on the ground are doing an exceptional job. They take their work very seriously. They are conforming with international law.
[Translation]
Hon. Jack Layton (Toronto—Danforth, NDP): 
    Mr. Speaker, media reports say that the Government of Canada has known for quite some time that detainees transferred to the Afghan authorities face torture. These are not new reports. The Liberal government was informed of this when the members for Toronto Centre and Markham—Unionville were in charge of the situation.
    Why do the minister and the Prime Minister not launch an investigation to find out what is really going on? More importantly, why does the Prime Minister not demand that his minister put an end to prisoner transfers or else resign?
Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC):   
    Mr. Speaker, our information indicates that so far our arrangements with the government of Afghanistan and the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission have been operating as they should.
    The government of Afghanistan has made a public commitment to conduct an investigation, and the Government of Canada is prepared to help it in any way possible.
[English]
Hon. Jack Layton (Toronto—Danforth, NDP): 
    Mr. Speaker, incredibly, it seems as though the Prime Minister remains in full denial on the situation of detainees in Kandahar. I will ask him about some other detainees.
    Since 2003, Canada has been sending warships to the Arabian Sea to participate in the American-led Operation Enduring Freedom. We learn now, due to documents that we have obtained, that the government signed, on October 12, an agreement regarding the transfer of prisoners taken during these operations. We tried to find out what the terms of the agreement are but the Department of National Defence has blackened out all the terms.
    Where are the detainees going, Guantanamo?
Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC):   
    Mr. Speaker, I am not sure I have anything to add to this subject at the moment, but I would hardly want today to pass without a rare chance for me to quote Buzz Hargrove on the good work that the Minister of the Environment is doing.
    Buzz Hargrove said:
    I believe [the minister] tried incredibly hard to find balance between the economy, the concern working people have for their jobs and the environmental concerns that concern every Canadian. I think he took a major step forward today that will deal with some of the environmental concerns that will not throw tens of thousands of Canadians out of work.
Hon. Ujjal Dosanjh (Vancouver South, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, in another damaging revelation, we learned today that the government was warned last year about the treatment of detainees handed over to Afghan prisons.
    Human Rights Watch wrote to NATO, copying our foreign affairs minister, on November 28, 2006, saying:
    We have received credible reports about mistreatment of detainees...in some cases the treatment amounted to torture.
    Why did the Conservatives hide this memo for almost five months?
Hon. Helena Guergis (Secretary of State (Foreign Affairs and International Trade) (Sport), CPC):        Mr. Speaker, the real question is why the previous Liberal government, since 2002, chose to ignore reports on Afghanistan. I remind the hon. member that he was a cabinet minister. There were five Afghanistan reports, four of them received by the previous Liberal government, and the Liberals chose to do nothing until the month before Canadians fired them.
    We implemented the policy they put in place. We have enhanced the policy. We will continue to do so.
Hon. Ujjal Dosanjh (Vancouver South, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, the government was warned and did absolutely nothing. The government has an obligation to thoroughly investigate all allegations of torture and it did not.
    Human Rights Watch told the foreign affairs minister to work with NATO to develop a common policy for better monitoring to “investigate allegations of prisoner abuse” and “to publicize the names of detainees”.
    Why did the Conservatives cover up what Human Rights Watch was telling them for five months?
Hon. Helena Guergis (Secretary of State (Foreign Affairs and International Trade) (Sport), CPC):        Mr. Speaker, let us be clear. The NATO commander has said that he sees no evidence to back up any of the allegations. There have been general allegations for years, of which the previous Liberal government is aware, and it has taken the Conservative government to not only implement the policy but work to enhance it.
    We have a relationship and an agreement with the Afghanistan government and with the Human Rights Commission and we will continue to work very closely with them.
[Translation]
Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, we are stunned by revelations that the Conservatives knew five months ago about torture in Afghanistan.
    The Minister of Public Safety boasted that there was no need to worry about the 40 detainees in the custody of the NDS, the Afghan secret police. Last November, Human Rights Watch said that the NDS was an irresponsible, abusive institution whose detention centres did not meet international standards. Why did the Minister of Public Safety boast on Friday about turning Canadian prisoners over to the NDS?
Hon. Stockwell Day (Minister of Public Safety, CPC):   
    Mr. Speaker, I have indicated that our Correctional Service officers have received an open invitation to visit the site my colleague mentioned. The officers can go and work with the alleged terrorists, and they can also make recommendations.
Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, this is pathetic. The government knows that over half the NDS personnel are former KHAD fighters from the Soviet era, notorious killers and torturers who were trained by the KGB.
    Human Rights Watch has called on the government to work with NATO to develop a common policy and get involved in all stages of the detention process.
    Why has this Conservative government covered this up and ignored the recommendations of Human Rights Watch?
[English]
Hon. Helena Guergis (Secretary of State (Foreign Affairs and International Trade) (Sport), CPC):
    Mr. Speaker, again we have general allegations. We have yet to receive any specific allegations.
    We have arrangements with the government of Afghanistan and with the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission. We believe that these arrangements are working well.
    If the government of Afghanistan requests our assistance, we will be pleased to give it to them.

 

[vonGarvin]

More from 30 April 2007:
Afghanistan   
Ms. Yasmin Ratansi (Don Valley East, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, last week, the Minister of Public Safety told the House that officials from Correctional Service Canada had access all along to monitor detainees in Afghan jails. However, his ministerial spokeswoman contradicted him, as did our Correctional Service officer, Ms. Garwood-Filbert, who is one of the two officials in Afghanistan. Even the Afghan ambassador denied what the minister was saying.
    Why can the government not just tell the truth for a change?
Hon. Stockwell Day (Minister of Public Safety, CPC):   
    Mr. Speaker, I will overlook the innuendo here because my colleague who just raised the question did not have the opportunity to discuss with the ambassador from Afghanistan, as I did, what is happening with our Correctional Service officers in Afghanistan.
    The Afghanistan ambassador in Canada and I are totally on the same page as far as the good work our Correctional Service officers are doing over there.
Ms. Yasmin Ratansi (Don Valley East, Lib.):   
    Mr. Speaker, that was not my question but let us look at what other people are saying about the detainee situation. The member for Mississauga—Streetsville, the Prime Minister's Middle East adviser, said, “Torture a fact of life in war-torn Afghanistan”. A Correctional Service officer in Afghanistan said, “There hasn't been any significant work done with the prisons”.
    When will the Minister of National Defence take responsibility for this farce and resign? When will the Prime Minister take responsibility and fire him?
Hon. Stockwell Day (Minister of Public Safety, CPC):   
    Mr. Speaker, our Correctional Service officers, only having been there since February, have already reported some progress. They have the ability to go into these facilities to help train Afghani officers in the prisons. They have been able to look at recommendations on how these prison facilities, which are basically third world facilities, can be improved. They have had the opportunity to talk to suspected terrorists who have talked to them about their treatment there. It has not happened overnight but progress is being made. I am glad they are in those facilities helping out.
[Translation]
Hon. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, echoes of the general's incompetence, contradictions and impulsiveness in this scandal concerning the treatment of prisoners in Afghan prisons have made it all the way to Europe.
    While the Prime Minister and his Conservative government busied themselves with their daily cover-ups, the secretary general of NATO seemed to take the prisoners' situation very seriously at the Brussels forum. The hon. Fawzia Koofi, a member of the Afghanistan parliament who was also present, agreed with me when I spoke to her about the allegations of torture in Afghan prisons.
    It is very troublesome that our international reputation is being tarnished.
    When will the incompetent general be dismissed?
[English]
Hon. Helena Guergis (Secretary of State (Foreign Affairs and International Trade) (Sport), CPC):      Mr. Speaker, I do not know how many times we need to stand in the House to explain to the previous Liberal government that its inaction with respect to developing a policy on the transfer of detainees is unacceptable.
    What also is extremely unacceptable is the fact that far too often the opposition is so ready to take the word of Taliban detainees over our brave Canadian men and women. Canadians are finding themselves offended at this.
Hon. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, what is unacceptable was the smile on her face when she answered that question.
    After a Human Rights Watch letter, the U.S. state department issued a report a year ago that states that a credible observer reports “that local authorities in Herat, Helmand...and other locations...routinely torture and abuse detainees”. He goes on to say that we are talking about “pulling out fingernails and toenails, burning with hot oil...sexual humiliation...”.
    When was the foreign affairs minister aware of that report? Since the government has proven itself incapable, when can we expect a NATO agreement that respects human rights and the Geneva convention?
Hon. Helena Guergis (Secretary of State (Foreign Affairs and International Trade) (Sport), CPC):        Mr. Speaker, the accusations from the opposition are irresponsible. We have arrangements with the government of Afghanistan. We have arrangements with the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission. We believe the arrangements are working.
    The Afghanistan government will be investigating these allegations and we will be working with it in this investigation.

 

[vonGarvin]

From 1 May 2007:

Petitions 
Canadian Forces ​

Hon. Wayne Easter (Malpeque, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present a petition signed by 4,179 Prince Edward Islanders concerned about events relating to friendly fire incidents in Afghanistan. Because of the nature of these unfortunate incidents, the integrity, professionalism and reputation of members of the Canadian Forces have been called into question.
    Therefore, the petitioners call upon the minister and the Prime Minister to take immediate action to ensure that members of our Canadian Forces be given the full respect they deserve, that they are not treated as common criminals, and that all efforts be made by the Canadian government to protect the reputation, livelihood and mental health of those individuals when such incidents occur.
-----------------------------------------------

ORAL QUESTIONS ​

 
[Translation]

Afghanistan 
Hon. Stéphane Dion (Leader of the Opposition, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, does the Prime Minister still have confidence in his Minister of National Defence, yes or no?
Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC): 
    Mr. Speaker, I have said repeatedly that it is the Leader of the Opposition in whom I lack confidence.
    What leads me to that conclusion today would be reading a copy of a letter I received from Ed Morgan, the national president of the Canadian Jewish Congress, noting that his colleague, Elizabeth May, has diminished the Holocaust, used the Nazi analogy that is demagogic and inappropriate, while belittling Canadians of faith.
    The Leader of the Opposition hitched his wagon to this individual. I hope he will distance himself from those kinds of remarks.
Hon. Stéphane Dion (Leader of the Opposition, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister should be able to say if, yes or no, he has confidence in his Minister of National Defence. The entire nation wants to hear the answer.
The last time the minister was allowed to speak was in an elevator. Now the Minister of Public Safety is inventing policy in an elevator. Maybe we should get the Prime Minister in an elevator to get an answer from him.
Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC): 
    Mr. Speaker, all ministers serve the government with distinction. He will know that the Minister of National Defence has served his country with distinction for virtually his entire adult life, including in a uniform in the Canadian Forces.
I think the Leader of the Opposition should be able to say that he believes that diminishing the Holocaust and using Nazi analogies are inappropriate. I would like to again give him a chance to distance himself from these remarks by his colleague, the leader of the Green Party.
Hon. Stéphane Dion (Leader of the Opposition, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, to speak about the credentials of the minister is not enough. Does the Prime Minister still have confidence in his Minister of National Defence, yes or no?
[Translation]
    I suggest that the Prime Minister should no longer have confidence in his Minister of National Defence. He was wrong about the Red Cross, wrong about the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, wrong about the alleged new agreement with the Afghan government and wrong about the treatment of prisoners.
    Will the Prime Minister fire his Minister of National Defence and give our soldiers a better minister?
Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC): 
    Mr. Speaker, obviously I have confidence in the Minister of National Defence, someone who has served as a member of the Canadian Forces.
    It is no small matter to diminish the Holocaust or use Nazi analogies, as the leader of the Green Party, Elizabeth May, has done. The Canadian Jewish Congress has denounced this. I hope the Leader of the Opposition will—
The Speaker: 
    The hon. member for Etobicoke—Lakeshore.
[English]
Mr. Michael Ignatieff (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, changing the channel will not work.
    The Prime Minister and his ministers have persisted in their denials that the government had any specific knowledge of allegations of torture. Then yesterday the Minister of Public Safety admitted that the government did know about specific allegations of torture and that Correctional Service Canada officers in Afghanistan had told him last week. We have a startling new admission.
    When is the Prime Minister going to end these obvious fabrications, fire his incompetent Minister of National Defence and appoint somebody able to get some control over this ridiculous spectacle?
Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC): 
    Mr. Speaker, the problem once again is that the opposition continues to have its facts wrong.
    The deputy leader has just claimed there is some new allegation here. I am reading quotes from Hansard last week where the Minister of Public Safety said exactly that Canadian corrections officials had been in prisons in Afghanistan, had heard some of these allegations, but had not seen any evidence to substantiate them.
    It is right on the Hansard record of April 26. The member should actually listen to something that is being said in the House.
[Translation]
Mr. Michael Ignatieff (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, last week, the Minister of Public Safety called the detainees “cold-blooded murderers”, ignoring the Geneva convention provisions on presumption of innocence. Canada must protect the detainees, no matter what the government thinks of them.
    Does this government believe that the fundamental guarantees of the Geneva convention can simply be ignored?
[English]
Hon. Stockwell Day (Minister of Public Safety, CPC): 
    Mr. Speaker, the constant practice of the member from Harvard from Etobicoke is to take something that was said and twist it and torque it into something else. I never said that all the suspects who were captured were cold-blooded murderers. I did say that Taliban terrorists were cold-blooded murderers, but I did not say that all the suspects in jails were that.
    Is the hon. member saying that he supports Taliban terrorists? Is that what he is saying? That goes in line with his leader supporting the comments of Elizabeth May.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): 
    Mr. Speaker, in 2006, Human Rights Watch sent NATO members a report confirming the use of torture in Afghan prisons. A 2006 report produced by senior officials in the Department of Foreign Affairs came to the same conclusion. Yesterday, the Minister of Public Safety said that two correctional services officials had provided statements from detainees who claimed to have been tortured by Afghan authorities. In light of this evidence, will the Prime Minister stop transferring detainees to the Afghan authorities, and will he call for an independent inquiry?
Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC): 
    Mr. Speaker, last week, here in the House of Commons, the Minister of Public Safety said that Correctional Service Canada officials who visited a prison in Afghanistan heard detainees make allegations.
    However, there is no proof confirming the allegations. As we just said, the Afghan government is committed to investigating the matter, and the Government of Canada will help with the investigation.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): 
    Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister is saying that the Afghan authorities will investigate the allegations, yet the Afghan police are the ones suspected of using torture to make detainees talk. That is like putting the fox in charge of the henhouse.
    Will the Prime MInister stop transferring detainees to the Afghan authorities, and will he demand an independent inquiry?
Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC): 
    Mr. Speaker, we have an arrangement with the Afghan government and with the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission concerning the transfer of detainees. We are reviewing these agreements, but so far, they seem to be working the way they are supposed to.
    As we said, the Afghan government is taking its responsibilities seriously. It will investigate the allegations and will accept Canada's help in this matter.
Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): 
    Mr. Speaker, after spending more than a week denying the allegations of torture of Afghan prisoners, yesterday the government, in the person of the Minister of Public Safety, acknowledged that it had been informed of two instances of torture. There are two reports: one sent to the former Liberal government in 2002 and one sent to the current Minister of Foreign Affairs in 2006.
    Does the Prime Minister acknowledge that by denying the truth so often, his government is showing how little interest it takes in protecting the prisoners? Will he admit that he is not complying with the Geneva convention by leaving the Afghan authorities to take sole responsibility for—
The Speaker: 
    The hon. Minister of Public Safety.
Hon. Stockwell Day (Minister of Public Safety, CPC): 
    Mr. Speaker, last week I indicated that our corrections officers had heard allegations of torture in two cases, but there is no proof.
    Our officers are there to observe and help improve conditions in the prisons. We have already seen improvements. We have to take things one step at a time, but we have seen improvements.
Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): 
    Mr. Speaker, we now know that legal action is being taken against Canada here and abroad, with more to come, to prevent future transfers of Afghan prisoners.
    According to many experts, the federal government no longer has a choice, in light of the repeated violations of the Geneva convention. It must stop prisoner transfers.
    Why does the Prime Minister have to wait until the courts force his hand in order to comply with the Geneva convention, which Canada signed?
Hon. Stockwell Day (Minister of Public Safety, CPC): 
    Mr. Speaker, prisoners' rights are extremely important to us. In addition, the head of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization forces said that it was preferable for the Afghans to continue developing their ability to receive and handle prisoners, and that is exactly what is happening. It is happening very quickly, but it is happening now.
Hon. Jack Layton (Toronto—Danforth, NDP): 
    Mr. Speaker, with respect to the transfer of detainees in Afghanistan, yesterday, the Prime Minister refused to provide answers concerning the agreement with the Americans for prisoners captured at sea.
    After denying it for many days, the Minister of Public Safety finally said that he had received reports from our experts, our correctional offers, about torture in Afghanistan.
    Why are detainees still being transferred? Why does the Prime Minister not stop these transfers immediately?
Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC): 
    Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Public Safety admitted these things last week during question period in the House of Commons. He said that officials from Correctional Service Canada had passed on these allegations, but that there was no proof.
[English]
Hon. Jack Layton (Toronto—Danforth, NDP): 
    Mr. Speaker, the Minister of National Defence has been caught repeatedly misleading the House on this whole affair of the transfers.
    The Minister of Foreign Affairs has so many different positions on this, it is impossible to know where he stands, despite the warnings from Human Rights Watch and his own department.
    Now we have the Minister of Public Safety who first tells us that there are no reports of torture and then turns around a couple of hours later and tells us that there are.
    This whole fiasco has reached the point where the Prime Minister has to take some action.
    Why does he not shuffle the whole bunch out of there and put some confidence in his cabinet for a change?
Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC): 
    Once again, Mr. Speaker, all I can do is quote exactly what the Minister of Public Safety said last week. He said that corrections officials were in these prisons in Afghanistan and had not observed torture, had received some allegations but saw no evidence that those allegations were correct.
    That was revealed last week in the House. The opposition members have their facts wrong. I would love to shuffle them around but it is not within my power.
[Translation]
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (Westmount—Ville-Marie, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, we have been trying for the past two weeks to get clear answers to straightforward questions. The government, however, prefers to change its story from one day to the next.
    I would like to ask the Minister of National Defence a very simple question. How many prisoners has the Conservative government handed over to Afghan authorities?
    Some hon. members: Oh, oh!
The Speaker: 
    Order, please. The hon. Minister of Public Safety has the floor. Everyone would like to hear his response. The minister has the floor.
[English]
Hon. Stockwell Day (Minister of Public Safety, CPC): 
    Mr. Speaker, what is interesting here is that when I published the fact in February that we had corrections officers in the prisons in Afghanistan, the opposition members were not even interested and never asked a question.
    When I was in Afghanistan myself and was talking to the media there and talking about the hard-working corrections officers there, they never asked a question.
    When I talked in the House of Commons about our corrections officers and how they had talked to two individuals who talked about allegations, there was not a question.
    However, when the opposition read one snappy little headline yesterday that this was the first time anybody had known about this, they all leapt at it.
    Why do they not trying leaping for the truth?
[Translation]
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (Westmount—Ville-Marie, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, the Conservative government is incapable of answering this question, even though it claimed to have access to everyone being held by Afghan authorities.
    The government has had a full week to conduct its research. Can the government inform this House and Canadians at this time?
    I repeat my question. How many people have been transferred to Afghan authorities? Where are the prisoners? How are they? What is their condition? Who has spoken to them recently?
[English]
Hon. Gordon O'Connor (Minister of National Defence, CPC): 
    Mr. Speaker, the numbers of prisoners and the details about prisoners are operational matters and are not revealed to the public.
    However, if the previous Liberal government wants to admit how many prisoners it transferred, we are quite open to hear it.
[Translation]
Hon. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, the secretary general of NATO himself admitted that he is taking the allegations of torture in Afghan prisons very seriously.
    Meanwhile, this government continues its parade of ministers, each one telling a different story, depending on that days' preferred cover-up.
    My question is for the Prime Minister. According to the Conservative government's logic in this file, does he now believe that the secretary general of NATO is listening to the Taliban or will he too finally start to take these allegations seriously, fulfil his obligation and ensure that the Geneva convention is respected?
[English]
Hon. Helena Guergis (Secretary of State (Foreign Affairs and International Trade) (Sport), CPC): 
    Mr. Speaker, our military takes its role very seriously on the ground in Afghanistan. It is working incredibly hard and doing an incredibly good job, and that includes conforming with international law.
  We believe that things are working very well on the ground.
Hon. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.): 
    Mr. Speaker, these are serious allegations. Unfortunately, even the Minister of National Defence seems to have gone AWOL. Maybe his staff will send another inspired e-mail to the press today.
Canadians are demanding a straight answer from the government and they are wondering why NATO is taking these allegations more seriously than the collection of ministers across the floor.
When will the Conservative government drop the tired, Bush-style rhetoric, be accountable and work with NATO to determine the truth of the allegations and to ensure that we always comply with the Geneva convention obligations in Afghanistan?
Hon. Helena Guergis (Secretary of State (Foreign Affairs and International Trade) (Sport), CPC): 
    Mr. Speaker, as I have stated, our military personnel on the ground ensure that they conform with international law.
    The NATO commander, as the member so often likes to refer to, has said that he sees no specific evidence to these allegations. Yes, there are general allegations, but there are no specific allegations.
    There is an arrangement with the government of Afghanistan and the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission. They are investigating and we are assisting in that investigation.

 

[TCBF]

but I suspect there must be local (read civilian) workers at the station?

- The only way for a civilian to get to Alert is with military permission.  Think of Alert's reason for being there, and all becomes clear.

Would you consider 600 miles or so "Local" ?

 

[The Bread Guy]

Even the Senate is at it -- from 2 May 07 (highlights only because of length)
Hansard link

National Defence

    Afghanistan—Treatment of Detainees—Confidence in Minister

Hon. Céline Hervieux-Payette (Leader of the Opposition): Honourable senators, our Canadian forces meet exceptional standards of excellence and professionalism .... This is why we have been shocked at the allegations that prisoners captured by Canadians in Afghanistan have been abused, tortured or even summarily executed after having been handed over to Afghan authorities. To wash our hands of the fate of these prisoners would go against our values and those of our armed forces. Our government has denigrated our values and let our troops down. We now know that the government had been made aware of the possible abuse, torture or execution of prisoners transferred to Afghan jails. These warnings came from our consular officers in Kabul and several international organizations ....  My question to the Leader of the Government in the Senate is this: Why does the Conservative government not take appropriate steps to fulfil its obligations under the Geneva Convention and ensure that the rules for handing prisoners over are followed, thereby protecting the good reputation of Canada abroad?

[English]

Hon. Marjory LeBreton (Leader of the Government and Secretary of State (Seniors)): Honourable senators, I share the pride of the Leader of the Opposition in our Canadian Armed Forces. My own son has served in the Canadian Navy for a number of years. I am very proud of his service in the forces and the good training he received.

With regard to her question in regard to detainees in Afghanistan, these are only allegations. While this government takes these allegations very seriously, I wish to emphasize that they are just allegations.

Before coming into the chamber today, I had an opportunity to see a press conference from Afghanistan where General Hillier was commenting on these very issues. He quite rightly pointed out that our government and officials of our government are following up with Afghan officials, and with the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission on this matter, and will offer any necessary assistance in terms of getting to the bottom of these allegations.

[Translation]

Senator Hervieux-Payette:  .... My question is very precise. When will this government stop covering up the facts, and give a clear and final answer regarding the measures it plans to implement to protect our soldiers from the lack of political leadership in this file?

[English]

Senator LeBreton: I do not accept the honourable senator's comment at all with regard to the government trying to hide something. There is nothing to hide from. These are allegations.  The previous government did not have an agreement in place with respect to the transfer of detainees until one month before it left office, which was in December 2005. 

(....)

Hon. Mobina S.B. Jaffer: .... My question to the Leader of the Government in the Senate is the following: Why have we given up the standard of not accepting torture anywhere? Why are we now not being careful as to what is happening to Afghans under our responsibility?

Senator LeBreton: The government is not giving up the standard to which the honourable senator has referred. I think the only person that ever talked about torture was a member of the honourable senator's own party, and that person is now the deputy leader, Michael Ignatieff ....  As General Hillier pointed out today, there are genuine success stories in Afghanistan. The Canadian military, CIDA and the many people working in Afghanistan as part of the UN-sanctioned NATO mission can be very proud of Canada's efforts there. We are making a difference in Afghanistan, and we should be celebrating successes and not looking for failures ....  The fact is that Canada is part of NATO in a UN-sanctioned mission in Afghanistan. We are making a difference. These are allegations only. As the head of the NATO command in Afghanistan said the other day, they, like all NATO countries, are concerned about these allegations.

Hon. Elizabeth Hubley:  .... Can the minister tell us whether she thinks Canadians and, more important, the men and women in our Canadian Forces, can have confidence in this Minister of National Defence?

Senator LeBreton: I thank the honourable senator for the question. Of course, Minister O'Connor is an outstanding Canadian citizen. He served in the military for many years before offering himself for public office. If honourable senators will recall, the minister gave a full apology for inadvertently providing inaccurate information on the roles and responsibilities of the International Committee of the Red Cross with respect to detainees turned over by Canadian authorities, but the minister has been forthcoming and has worked hard with the military officials to get to the bottom of these allegations.

(....)

Hon. Terry M. Mercer:  .... My question deals with the report published in The Globe and Mail last week with respect to this issue. Canada's "growing-old" government at first denied such a report existed. When it was finally released under an Access to Information request, it was heavily blacked out. The report now has been referred to the Information Commissioner because there is a concern that some sections were blacked out only because they were politically embarrassing. That matter is serious in its own right. The report revealed that the government knew our officials in Afghanistan had concerns about torture in Afghan jails. Yet, they have continued to say there is no credible evidence such abuse is taking place.

(1410)

My question to the Leader of the Government in the Senate is simple. Does the honourable senator believe her own government officials would raise such serious issues and concerns unless they felt they had credible reasons to do so, or is the minister saying that Canada's growing-old government does not trust its own officials?

Senator LeBreton: Honourable senators, this question, of course, relates to the issue of Afghan detainees. I have some sympathy when I look across at Senator Eggleton, because he dealt with this issue as the Minister of Defence when he was in government.

With regard to the issue of the blacked-out part of the Access to Information Act request, as government and opposition members know, when it comes to the information provided on these access requests, lawyers for the government in the bureaucracy make decisions on what information is sensitive and therefore should not be accessible to the public. There is nothing more and nothing less than that.

(....)

Hon. Jim Munson: Honourable senators, my question is for the Leader of the Government in the Senate. If this lack of clarity continues, Afghanistan will turn into our Vietnam. It does a tremendous disservice to our troops on the ground. The answers have not been clear today. There are no answers as to why we are there, what we are doing and how long we will be there. These are simple questions. We need the government to be clear on this matter.  With all of this controversy, how long can we expect Minister O'Connor, the former defence lobbyist, to survive in his job?

Senator LeBreton: Honourable senators, obviously Minister O'Connor does not have the same job security as Senator Munson has, as a former communications director to a prime minister ....  We cannot predict, in 2007, what the progress will be in Afghanistan in 2009. We have committed ourselves to being there until 2009. At the appropriate time the government will put before Parliament the facts as they are at that time and Parliament will make the decision ....