"MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles" and "Replace base MP with RCMP"

[RCDtpr]

If you look at case law these days, courts are more and more granting acquittals, withdrawing charges, and finding offenders not guilty for assault peace officer because their lawyer was able to provide reasonable doubt that the offender could identify the officer as a peace officer.  It's is the reason you are seeing the opp and other civvies police services with POLICE in big white letters on the back and front of their body armour.

MPs arrest civvies just as they do service members.  Civvies are dealt with through civvies courts....I can only imagine how easy it would be for a lawyer to raise doubt the person couldn't I'd the guy in Cadpat as a police officer.

Most if not all of the MP group orders are the way they are because of precedence set by the legal system.

 

[QV]

These threads are useless when the usual suspects chime in with their antagonistic posts. 

 

[Tibbson]

Yes because the MPs are soooooo hard done by. Base and Wing commanders are just out to "get them".

:



Edited to remove the needless cheapshot.

Been a while but that doesn't mean this is worth a return comment on.  Nobody ever said anything about MPs being hard done by.  That is not my point.  My point is that there have been instances when a Base Commander didn't want something investigated so he would just cut them off at the knees because perhaps it was getting too close to him/her or would embarrass him/her as the BComd.  I remember a certain invest involving illegal maintenance being done on civilian vehicles at BMaint.  Resources were needed but the BComd knew his vehicle was one of them and he tried to cut things off.  THAT's what I was referring to by outside pressures effecting MPs.

 

[Tibbson]

My question: What kind of cost savings are to be had by taking the policing duties away from MP's. If another force still has to be contracted, what are those costs?

If there are huge savings to be had in terms of PY's and money,  go for it. If not...not a chance. I like the fact that MP's are visible and frequent patrollers of bases. Plus not all of them are fresh from basic training, I've met quite a few that were OT's and have done their time elsewhere. They get it.

There actually is no savings believe it or not.  This was proven by the Base Commander in the late 90s who had the OPP "bid" on policing services for the base.  I must admit I cannot remember the exact amounts but I do remember that the base commander had a 32 person MP det for approx $170 k a year.  This was the cost of the building, the vehicle fleet, supplies and other costs EXCEPT wages which were paid for by the CF.  32 people, trained and available (in shifts) at any time of the day or night. 

The OPP quote to cover the base was closer to $700 k a year and for that the Base Commander got coverage that consisted of 24/7 by one officer at a time (so lets say 5 officers on full time wages to allow for a shift rotation) and one more "in the area available to assist when needed".  It also included the cost of office space on the base, a vehicle, computers, radio, clerk and other expenses required to have an office on base.  To top it all off the Base Commander would still need to have 6-7 MPs for security duties and other strictly MP duties. 

So, on top of 4 times the cost he would get 25 times less manpower at his disposal AND he would still need to pay for MP MOC pers.  With the MPs he can call up and ask questions on policing matters.  With the OPP he gets to pay more AND have some Staff Sgt tell him to mind his own business.  Oh, and when they had such things as an Armed Forces Day or other event that needed more policing he would be paying for OPP officers on double overtime. 

The grass isn't always greener.  While my numbers may be off the analogy is still valid.

 

[dapaterson]

The CF cost was significantly higher (one of the problems with our methods of accounting).  If we assume $60k per MP in pay & benefits (a very low estimate, even for the '90s), that's an additional $2M/year the CF is paying - to say nothing of the costs of operating the MP school, career management (cost moves) and all the other corporate costs that are sustained to maintain any occupation.

 

[Old Sweat]

Our local weekly in North Grenville just did a bit on our new OPP contract, which is hideously expensive for a population of 15,000 plus. One of the clauses that is devastating our budget is that the OPP contract has a clause that the service must be the highest paid police force in Ontario. I could dig the details out, but it would not matter. It seems to me that using MPs is the best solution for normal duties, and they can be also posted to more military roles.

 

[garb811]

I'd love to see the look on a CO's face the first time he got an invoice billing him for the 3rd false alarm response to his weapons vault...  ;D

 

[dapaterson]

I'd love to see the look on a CO's face the first time he got an invoice billing him for the 3rd false alarm response to his weapons vault...  ;D

Maybe then he'd learn...

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Been a while but that doesn't mean this is worth a return comment on.  Nobody ever said anything about MPs being hard done by.  That is not my point.  My point is that there have been instances when a Base Commander didn't want something investigated so he would just cut them off at the knees because perhaps it was getting too close to him/her or would embarrass him/her as the BComd.  I remember a certain invest involving illegal maintenance being done on civilian vehicles at BMaint.  Resources were needed but the BComd knew his vehicle was one of them and he tried to cut things off.  THAT's what I was referring to by outside pressures effecting MPs.

:

 

[McG]

There actually is no savings believe it or not.  This was proven by the Base Commander in the late 90s who had the OPP "bid" on policing services for the base.  I must admit I cannot remember the exact amounts but I do remember that the base commander had a 32 person MP det for approx $170 k a year.  This was the cost of the building, the vehicle fleet, supplies and other costs EXCEPT wages which were paid for by the CF.  32 people, trained and available (in shifts) at any time of the day or night. 

A base commander's determination that it costs him less to use MP than to use RCMP is not the same as determining it costs the CF less to use MPs over RCMP.  A lot of the actual cost of an MP is transparent to the base commander, but the CAF pays for that MP to be trained, to recieve his pay & benefits, to be moved about the country, to be provided office space, etc, etc, etc.  An acutal cost comparison for the CAF may find a different result.

Maybe the right answer is hybrid RCMP/MP base detachments.

 

[jitterbug]

"reports are then scrutinized by people that had minimal time on the road and minimal real policing experience".  Really? 

I am one of those you speak of and I'd put my 11 years on the road plus 9 years of Invest/CFNIS experience up against yours any day.  Reports get reviewed and approved in order to ensure completeness and to ensure patrol MPs and investigators have thoroughly examined the matter and done their job in a thorough manner.

Comments like the ones you make show either your inexperience in the trade or your personal bias.  If you had a problem with a particular supervisor then keep your comments in context.  If you had problems with multiple supervisors then perhaps the problem was you.

11 years on the road as an MP is peanuts compared to 11 years on the road civi side.  In alot of civiian police services you are looking at a minimum of 12 years of high volume calls just to be a Patrol Sgt.  You then go through an extremely competitive vetting process where candidates are often separated by a single point and they interview people you worked with your entire career to see what they think of you. 
You can't possibly compare MP experience with civi side police officer experience.

The MP standard of entry as well as promotion is much lower than civi side aside from having a college diploma that anyone with a high school diploma could pass with minimal effort.

I only ever had one supervisor that I truly disliked with the MPS and he was the most pompous douchebag I've ever met in my life. I'm not labeling all of management with the MPs as that same person however I must admit that most of the leadership in the MPs that I had come across had very little policing experience yet numerous years as an MP.  I had seen a changeover in leadership within a single guard House of approximately 7 times yet it was still always the same story. The MP simply don't get enough call volume to have experience at policing.  This permeates through the entire trade both officers and ncm's.  Some of the best MP's I had ever seen were former police officers because they understood the courts they understood the paperwork and they understood a lot of different types of crimes and investigations as they had experience in them.  I'm sorry but I have not witnessed a great deal of competence in the MP trade as well I have not seen senior leadership understand the community because the leadership often changes they don't understand the people they don't know the places and they don't know the community very well. Spending a year or two or three or four in any given place doesn't really allow you to know the people because you have no connection to the community you're merely just passing through yet situations arise where you need to know the local justice system yet you never truly will because you're not experienced in it.

I've seen MP's try and get warrants signed off in a particular area and they aren't able to do so because they don't understand the local justice system and how the justices prefer the warrants to be written and what gets signed off and what doesn't.  There is really only so much you can pass on to the next guy posted in but if that guy hasn't actually experienced that area is extremely difficult unless they've spent a considerable amount of time there to be effective.

In my opinion the entire MP trade is essentially the blind leading the blind due to the overall lack of experience. This will never change due to the fact that the call volumes are too low and the mobility of the members.

 

[mariomike]

11 years on the road as an MP is peanuts compared to 11 years on the road civi side.  In alot of civiian police services you are looking at a minimum of 12 years of high volume calls just to be a Patrol Sgt. 

The MP simply don't get enough call volume to have experience at policing. 

This will never change due to the fact that the call volumes are too low and the mobility of the members.

For reference to the discussion.

Call Volume 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/104516.0

 

[JesseWZ]

In my opinion the entire MP trade is essentially the blind leading the blind due to the overall lack of experience. This will never change due to the fact that the call volumes are too low and the mobility of the members.

Your word here is only as good as your experience... Your posting history and profile indicate you are? were? an MP and are now attempting to become or have become a Health Care Administrator. Did you ever figure out what badges to wear as an OCdt? I only ask based on your posting history.

What is your experience in civilian policing? You talk like you've been with a civilian department and have loads of experience under your belt to judge us lacking. You mention "a lot" of civilian police services, and some magical threshold of "12 years of high volume calls" to be a Patrol Sergeant. I'm curious where you got this information, since I know quite a number of patrol sergeants in civilian services... I'll have to ask them if they had 12 straight years of "high volume calls" before the department came knocking chevrons in hand. If your experience with a civilian department is solely outside looking in, I'm not going to give it a lot of weight.

I know lots of bases that are pretty busy, and whose members are pretty well checked in with their local court system, and one of the burdens virtues of the unit I work for is I get to travel to all these guardhouses and see for myself just how checked in people are with their local Crowns and Courts.

You talk a lot about warrants, so I'm going to too. Not to put too fine a point on it, but warrant reviews are becoming more and more regionalized. Going or gone are the days where one could drive on down to the town courthouse and request to see the Hon. Judgey McJudgkins in his chambers to review a warrant. BC is almost exclusively the regional Telewarrant Centre now, and others are moving in that direction too.

If a Judge doesn't like an ITO, make the changes he wants, throw in a paragraph about how it's your second attempt and try again... I have a hard time seeing how this makes someone less effective. I've certainly never seen a Judge or JPs specific idiosyncrasies be a problem. Warrants aren't that different province to province even.
What your comment does do is make me pretty certain you don't actually understand the legal system very well and are posting outside the realm of your experience.

Yes, civilian police tend to have a higher call volume (in most urban areas), but I know lots of RCMP officers posted to Podunk, Nowhere that have exactly the same issues the MP branch does, and they still seem to be as effective as we are. There are lots of options to specialize in specific fields, and at least in the unit I'm in - I'm pretty friggan busy.

Finally, you are replying to a post that is 3 years old... and taking a swipe at the entire trade while doing it (maybe it's good you left). If you were so concerned about the blind leading the blind, why'd you go HCA instead of using your clearly vast amounts of judgment and experience to right the ship?

 

[Pusser]

Without wanting to cast aspersions on the Military Police, I've often thought that the model used in France, Italy, Spain and a host of other nations might be a better model for military policing in Canada.  The French Gendarmerie National, the Italian Carabinieri and the Spanish Guardia Civile are all national police forces that have both a military and civil policing role.  Perhaps the RCMP could assume a similar role in Canada?  It's a national paramilitary force and in fact, the origins of the Canadian Provost Corps came from NWMP personnel who enlisted during WWI.  I see two major benefits of having the RCMP assume policing services for the CAF:

1) RCMP personnel would have the opportunity to have had a much greater breadth of experience in a variety of situations; and
2) one of the major criticisms of the MPs is that being an internal policing agency, they are perhaps not as independent for the CAF chain of command as they should be.  Completely removing them from the CAF would resolve that.  NB: I'm aware that the MPs have been made more independent of the chain of command than they have been in the past (i.e. with creation of CFNIS), but the fact remains that they are still CAF members.

Some of the tactical functions of the military police (i.e. the more military, less police type roles such as POWs and route marking) could probably be assumed by specially trained personnel drawn from the combat arms.

 

[mariomike]

I see two major benefits of having the RCMP assume policing services for the CAF:

See also,

"Replace base MP with RCMP"
https://army.ca/forums/threads/29313.0;nowap
16 pages.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Without wanting to cast aspersions on the Military Police, I've often thought that the model used in France, Italy, Spain and a host of other nations might be a better model for military policing in Canada.  The French Gendarmerie National, the Italian Carabinieri and the Spanish Guardia Civile are all national police forces that have both a military and civil policing role.  Perhaps the RCMP could assume a similar role in Canada?  It's a national paramilitary force and in fact, the origins of the Canadian Provost Corps came from NWMP personnel who enlisted during WWI.  I see two major benefits of having the RCMP assume policing services for the CAF:

1) RCMP personnel would have the opportunity to have had a much greater breadth of experience in a variety of situations; and
2) one of the major criticisms of the MPs is that being an internal policing agency, they are perhaps not as independent for the CAF chain of command as they should be.  Completely removing them from the CAF would resolve that.  NB: I'm aware that the MPs have been made more independent of the chain of command than they have been in the past (i.e. with creation of CFNIS), but the fact remains that they are still CAF members.

Some of the tactical functions of the military police (i.e. the more military, less police type roles such as POWs and route marking) could probably be assumed by specially trained personnel drawn from the combat arms.

That was looked at in the 90s with the Federal Law Enforcement Under Review or FLUER.  The idea was to streamline all Fed LE under the umbrella of the RCMP.  It was something l and my fellow MP in my unit were behind and hoped for but alas.  It made a good deal of sense from certain vantage pionts.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Some of the tactical functions of the military police (i.e. the more military, less police type roles such as POWs and route marking) could probably be assumed by specially trained personnel drawn from the combat arms.

Route recce/marking/signing and TCPs have been a duty of Armd Recce for decades. 

I wonder, though, if this would work.  You'd have to put RCMP, which on average get paid more than a MP Cpl, on the bases to respond quickly to things like 1 or 2 bells on airfields, as a quick example.  Wouldn't this mean it would effectively cost more for the Mounties to do the job?  I think we should look for ways to spend less, not more, for the same services/deliverables/call it what you want.

As a CAF mbr, I don't give 2 donkeyballs about 'the RCMP having a greater breadth of exerience'.  I don't expect them to be overly familiar with military stuff, because they are police not military.

I think we'd be better off improving the MP branch than handing it over to the RCMP because that would be easier for us.  I've driven hours on the highway before and not seen a single Mountie on the roads;  if they get more money I'd rather see it used policing the 'rest of Canada', not our bases.

 

[jollyjacktar]

IIRC, we would have carried on doing what we did for the CF as would have Fed Fish, Corrections Canada, Customs etc.  There would have been some savings as there wouldn't have been overlap per se of several agencies doing the same tasks.  There was talk of being able to move onto other areas.  What we found most appealing was we would have been outside the Command structure and not answerable to or have interference from local authority.  There was many occasions of meddling during my time with 1 CMBG and l hated it.

 

[Piece of Cake]

I wonder what the late Colonel James Stone, DSO, MC, CD would have thought about replacing MP's with the RCMP....

 

[jollyjacktar]

It's not like RCMP members haven't done MP roles before.