MP to RCMP

[QV]

There is speculation in the MP branch that RCMP will take MPs as laterals in the near future.  Apparently the MP branch is feaversihly working to impliment some retention incentives such as Spec Pay level 2 and contract renewal signing bonuses.  We will see I suppose....

 

[George Wallace]

There is speculation in the MP branch that RCMP will take MPs as laterals in the near future.  Apparently the MP branch is feaversihly working to impliment some retention incentives such as Spec Pay level 2 and contract renewal signing bonuses.   We will see I suppose....

To the rest of us, this is BS.  First they get Spec Pay, then they go and get automatic promotions to CPL.  It is just WRONG.

How is that for a rumour crusher?

 

[QV]

Spec Pay 2 would sure piss off a bunch of grunts and other trades.   :'(     

Oh...and the fact that you don't agree with Spec Pay 1 doesn't exactly crush any rumours of Spec Pay 2. 

I do not agree with the advanced Cpl thing.... that is just wrong.  But you better research how many other trades do it before blasting the MPs for it. 

 

[George Wallace]

Well.... If you want to be that way......should we also speculate on the possibility of inflationary price setting being brought into affect at Tim Horton's as a result of this rumour?    ;D

 

[garb811]

To the rest of us, this is BS.  First they get Spec Pay, then they go and get automatic promotions to CPL.  It is just WRONG.

How is that for a rumour crusher?

Well, look at the bright side, if this does happen in the timeline I'm hearing, you won't need to worry about MPs getting Spec 2 since there won't be any left to get it.  After witnessing how long it took to get Spec 1 there is no way the Branch can get any kind of retention incentives all the way through to Treasury Board approval in time to make it worth the effort.  Additionally, even Spec 2 won't cut it since Cpl 4 - Spec 2 still pays $8G less than a 3 year Cst (not counting overtime) and re-signing bonuses aren't going to do anything for the core of the Branch who are already past their initial engagement.

Actually I lie, someone will be around to collect Spec 2, me.  I won't be running for the door, I'll just wait for the RCMP to absorb the Branch not long after this policy is implemented as it'll save me the headaches of going through the application process...  I guess everyone who has been bashing the Branch and saying how much better the RCMP could do the job is about to find out whether they were right. 

 

[QV]

Speaking of speculation.... This scenerio below is one outcome that, in my opinion, is not unlikely.  It would be devastating to the branch though:

-The RCMP will accept MP laterally
-The huge amount of releases (300-400 out of a 1200 total force) in the MP branch will cause it to not physically be able to meet its current responsibilities.  Pri 6 positions (like domestic policing) will be shut down
-The MP will turn over all domestic policing and major/sensitive crimes (NIS) to the RCMP or municipal force depending on location
-The MP will concentrate on field duties, counter inteligence and security in order to still support deployed ops
-Instead of having 2-5 duty MPs responding to calls for service on any given base you will now have the local 5-0 attending - if it is a priority call and they are not too busy
-All NDA offences will be handled from start to finish by base units (as they should be anyway)
-Base guardhouses will be typically an 8 to 10 man unit (When they used to be 20-40, or in the case of Halifax 100) for liaisons with base units on NDA offence matters and base MP security sections, or NCIU dets.  Field Platoons will be untouched or have a slight increase in manning   :skull:


OR

Not too many MPs will really give a damn about an RCMP lateral and nothing will change.... :-\  However, once the RCMP accept MPs laterally other municipal departments may follow.  Halifax already does.  This could then lead to more releases..... 

 

[garb811]

The official word is out from the CFPM on the issue of lateral transfers to the RCMP and several other related issues.  Look for the message to be pushed down your chain of command in the next couple of days. 

I won't be posting the message here nor will I send it via PM as I believe it's a CoC issue to address due to the impact it is going to have.

 

[Kiwi99]

Before anyone believes there is a possibility of MPs having the ability to go straight into the RCMP, there are other things to consider.  Now, this is not meant to be a bash MP thing, but my observations of MPs at work lead me to believe that they will only hinder the RCMP.  They are not experianced enough to suddenly be allowed to be RCMP.  Now, many will disagree, and rightly so.  But for the average soldier, if the MPs get involved in a case then they know that they will get away free, as the paperwork or investigation will ultimately be screwed up.  Maybe as highway patrol or something, as they have great experaince at pulling people over.  But the amount of people that have gotten away with stuff due to incompetance is huge.  This is based on MPs I have seen at work both in garrison and on Operations.  And I am sure there are many MPs that would be a benefit to the RCMP.  But master the job of MP before thinking about doing anything else.
In closing, why is that a Cpl MP beleives that if they pull someone over or  conduct an investigation, they don't have to address the other person by rank?  And will someone please tell me why they get spec pay! 

 

[garb811]

Before anyone believes there is a possibility of MPs having the ability to go straight into the RCMP, there are other things to consider.  Now, this is not meant to be a bash MP thing, but my observations of MPs at work lead me to believe that they will only hinder the RCMP.  They are not experianced enough to suddenly be allowed to be RCMP.  Now, many will disagree, and rightly so.  But for the average soldier, if the MPs get involved in a case then they know that they will get away free, as the paperwork or investigation will ultimately be screwed up.  Maybe as highway patrol or something, as they have great experaince at pulling people over.  But the amount of people that have gotten away with stuff due to incompetance is huge.  This is based on MPs I have seen at work both in garrison and on Operations.  And I am sure there are many MPs that would be a benefit to the RCMP.  But master the job of MP before thinking about doing anything else.
In closing, why is that a Cpl MP beleives that if they pull someone over or  conduct an investigation, they don't have to address the other person by rank?  And will someone please tell me why they get spec pay! 

/rant on

...and your ability to judge the competence of MP and their investigative abilities is based on what personal police training and experience?  Honestly, in the 10+ years I have been on this forum there have been many like you who "think" you know how "we" are incompetent due to "things" you have "seen" or "heard" and feel that this gives you the right to randomly jump into a thread and offer your uninformed comments about the trade...whatever happened to the concept of staying in your lane? 

Do MPs drop the ball on occasion?  Yes, I'll be the first to admit it but so do the RCMP (Mistakes plaguing RCMP) and every other civie force (Alleged gang boss freed over police errors, Vancouver police admit mistakes made over missing girl to name just a few) , we're human, mistakes happen but they are hardly at the gross level of incompetence that you suggest (I personally policed your unit in Garrison and on Ops and know that guys weren't getting away with anything and everything like you imply).  The real world isn't CSI: CF and every case isn't successfully solved and prosecuted in an hour and even a successfully concluded invest may lead to no percieved action because unless it's NIS doing the invest, we can't lay NDA charges as that is at the discretion of the chain of command.  Given the rank in your profile I seriously doubt you've ever been in the position to have complete access to a MP invest and resulting report (unless you've been the subject of one perhaps...?) without having access to the report you'd have no factual evidence to form your opinion with, so I'll just go with my opinon that you're just another non-MP witha beef about us talking out your ass.

At the end of the day I don't go around telling Infantry how they are incompetent in their trade because of what I perceive or have heard or think because it's your specialty not mine and I certainly don't go into the Infantry forum and start beaking off about how infantry shouldn't be allowed to do live fire because of the range accidents I have been involved in investigating nor do I go into the Logistics forum and call down the MSE Ops by saying they aren't of the same calibre as civie professional drivers because of the TAs I have investigated etc etc etc so please do me a favour and have the courtesy of doing the same for my trade and stick to your area of expertise.

Ref the rest...it's been beaten to death in other threads in this sub-forum, I'm sure if you do a search you can find a suitable thread and continue the bashing there.

/rant off

 

[Dissident]

Wow. Where do we keep getting these people from? Oh wait, its the internet, there is an endless supply.

 

[QV]

Before anyone believes there is a possibility of MPs having the ability to go straight into the RCMP, there are other things to consider.  Now, this is not meant to be a bash MP thing, but my observations of MPs at work lead me to believe that they will only hinder the RCMP.  They are not experianced enough to suddenly be allowed to be RCMP.  Now, many will disagree, and rightly so.  But for the average soldier, if the MPs get involved in a case then they know that they will get away free, as the paperwork or investigation will ultimately be screwed up.  Maybe as highway patrol or something, as they have great experaince at pulling people over.  But the amount of people that have gotten away with stuff due to incompetance is huge.  This is based on MPs I have seen at work both in garrison and on Operations.  And I am sure there are many MPs that would be a benefit to the RCMP.  But master the job of MP before thinking about doing anything else.
In closing, why is that a Cpl MP beleives that if they pull someone over or  conduct an investigation, they don't have to address the other person by rank?  And will someone please tell me why they get spec pay! 

OK there were a couple replys before I got mine in so take it for what its worth....


I guess you are not familiar with clearance rates of other police departments?  Just from what you observed... or from what your friends told you... you have come to the conclusion that MPs suck.  Right.  Military justice is more riddled with conflict of interests then civilian justice.  Have you looked at the court marshals site?  How many serious offences have been dropped in favour of NDA 129?  Not all are as a result of a piss poor investigation... piss poor investigations usually don't make it to trial.  Go have a look and see how many child porn related cases have been dropped....

I always use rank (if known) when talking with someone, or I default to "sir/maam"..... why is it many military members think that their rank is going to somehow give them a position of advantage when being dealt with by the police?   I find it entertaining when I am dealing with a suspect and that suspect thinks that because he is a Sgt or Maj or whatever and that this fact is somehow going to change how I investigate.  If you have a beef with the MP, why don't you use the chain of command and file a complaint?  Beaking off doesn't solve anything.  When I am on duty and some guy comes up screaming and taking an agressive posture, dropping F bombs and using the excuse that I don't have my beret on, I treat him like an aggressive, possibly violent person.  I am not going to just assume you are NOT having other issues.  Instead of trying to have a confrontation with the police - phone and bitch at the MPs boss....    

We get Spec Pay 1 because we deserve it.... and by the sounds of it people a lot higher then me (and likely you) think that we deserve Spec Pay 2.  Here is a message to all the people that are angry because other trades make more money:    REMUSTER to something with higher pay.

 

[noneck]

MP 00161  +1

I did some follow up yesterday with the E Div Staffing person in charge of laterals. It was confirmed that here is a move in progress to bring over Reg F MP's. I work with a Reg F NCIU MP Sgt and he mentioned that that the rumour is that the lateral transfer will be offered to  MCpl's and above with at least 6-7 years of service.

Recently the lateral courses have lasted anywhere from 2-6 weeks, and I believe that last year they ran them at the PRTC in Chilliwack. In E Div we have 860 vacant Regular Member positions, I have worked with numerous MP's and welcome all that are interested to throw their hat in the ring. I also think that other PD's/PS's will also follow suit and offer similar lateral transfers, after all we are in major competition for the same pool of good applicants.

One major factor that may bring more MP's over to the Force is the pension issue, if an MP laterals over he/she can roll their CF pension right into the RCMP pension plan. I did it for 4.5 years of service and it will make a huge difference being able to retire with 24 + a day with a 30 year pension.

Noneck

 

[QV]

A friend of mine that just finished Depot (full course) said that he wasn't sure if the lateral course was 6 or 8 weeks.  He opted to do the full Depot course because he would have had to wait longer to start the lateral course. 

 

[garb811]

Noneck:  I have the message from the Provost Marshal ref this issue that has quite a bit of detail but like I said, I firmly believe the subject is currenlty a CofC issue due to the impact this is going to have and I personally wanted to have my thoughts in order prior to pushing it to my guys so I want to give other Snr Leaders the chance to do the same.  In a couple of days when I think it should be out to most people I'll put some detail up.  Thanks for the vote of confidence, who knows, I might be trading in Green for Serge.

Kiwi99:  My apologies for unloading on you, you just happened to be the proverbial straw in relation to the issue of sniping at MPs in this forum.  I respect your professional opinions and normally enjoy your posts, finding them informative and well thought out and I look forward to reading more of your stuff.

 

[medaid]

I like MPs infact that would've been my career path of choice had I not decided not to go Reg F. Congratulations are in order though, because the MPs have been fighting long and hard to be able to lateral, and being able to do it with the RCMP is a gigantic step forwards.

 

[Kiwi99]

Understood, but I have to let you know that we all learn from these types of comments based on perception.  An outside view can sometimes work wonders, and resolve issues.  Like I stated, it was not an MP bash.  A lot of MPs have forgotten what the M stands for, and thats the issue.  Spec pay, its always gonna be an issue.  People could care less if you get it or not, but why.  There are plenty of tades that do spec things but dont get it.  Its a comparison issue, is all. You know, reading some posts that followed mie, i dont recall saying MPs suck.  That a pretty big defensive measure to assume that was the intent.  The reason why forums exist is to give opinions and ideas, and constructive criticizm.  I am sure that you all sit around wondering what the hell the grunts are up to, just as medics wonder what the hell the air force is up to.  We have this opportunity to converse in a non formal enviroment and we shouild make the most out of it.

kiwi out!

 

[QV]

Kiwi99 I understand what you are saying about "forgetting what the M means".  I myself experienced that with some subordinates in A'stan just recently - drove me nuts.  I feel that phrase has far more application in a theatre of ops, or field duties, then domestic policing.  However, too many people throw that phrase around when they don't get their way with respect to the MPs.  In my opinion (and I am probably the minority) the "M" takes a second seat to my duties as police in domestic policing operations.  I think one can only understand what I mean when I say that, if you have done or are doing the job as an MP on general patrol duties. 

Comments from outside the org are welcome, however when they are predominantly negative like your first post, then like any other group there are some of us who will jump up to defend our organization.

No you didn't say "MPs suck".... but it sure sounded like it to me.  Agree to disagree I suppose.

Anyway... I think I have dragged this thread far enough off topic........ Now back to talking MP 00161 into posting that message up so we can all see it!!!!

 

 

[garb811]

And will someone please tell me why they get spec pay! 

Well, there is no one reason why Spec pay was granted to the MPs.  I have not seen the multiple binders of the submission to the Treasury Board, however my understanding is the main reasons are:

1)  Recruiting incentive (not the original reason for Spec pay when it was tied to mobilization MOCs but it has become one of the uses today)
2)  Addition of the MP Code of Conduct to the NDA.  No other trade has a code of conduct published in a federal statute
3)  Legislation of and standing up of a quasi-judicial body to oversee and investigate complaints in relation to the MP Code of Conduct
4)  Implemention of the requirement of a post-secondary degree in order to qualify for the trade off the street

Surprisingly, "because we deserve it" doesn't seem to be on the list.  At the end of the day the Branch made the proposal (multiple times over several years to be truthful) and finally made a case which all the powers that be with the CF, DND and the Treasury Board agreed with, hence Spec 1.

Ref the Mp/mP/MP debate, this has been going on for as long as I have been in the trade.  At the end of the day, it's up to us as leaders to bring everyone on line with the expectations of the rest of the CF in relation to what is and what is not acceptable dress/deportment/decorum when dealing with the rest of the CF in the conduct of our duties.  While I agree with QV that in many instances, members on general patrol duty do not conform to certain "expected" military decorum due to officer safety, imposition of authority and related reasons, many, many MPs push the boundary and think that because "civie cops don't do it" they don't have to either.  A good example of this is headdress, many young MP try to refuse wearing it at any time because it is an "officer safety" issue, which is a ludicrous argument in my mind, particularly when I'm jacking them up for not wearing their headdress from the patrol car to the Guardhouse at 12pm on a weekday at the main gate in plain view of everyone driving off base at lunch.  At the end of the day, the Provost Corps motto of "Discipline By Example" applies just as much to the MP Branch as it does to 1 MP Pl (if they still have the motto after becoming part of 1 MPU).  My experience has always been that the best way to earn the respect and cooperation of other CF members has been to act in a manner which is above reproach in all my dealings with them, not once has this let me down unlike many young guys I've seen in action...  At the end of the day it comes down to professionalism, if you want to be treated as a professional, deal with everyone in a professional manner and abide by the rules of the profession you have joined.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Agreed MP......I think that dress and deportment in many civie forces is absolutely deplorable at the best of times. the RCMP have gone a long way to cleaning up their act in the last little while. One notices that they never appear on a news interview anymore without proper head dress and looking properly turned out now. When outside the car invesitgating accidents etc they are wearing their uniforms properly etc.
I was down at Perk's the other night in Halifax and two HRP folks went by "on the beat" with hands jammed in pockets...slouching and jackets wide open etc ...it wasn't a very positive appearance in public.
IMHO a police officer should have a bearing that suggests authority and discipline.....bellies hanging our under ill fitting flak jackets, stained clothing or untidy appearance suggests an attitude of unprofessionalism.

All my dealings with MPs in my career have been mostly positive and I've found them to be a disciplined and well turned out group.

 

[garb811]

Since it has been a week and as the meat is now on another website, find below the relevant portion from the email sent by the CFPM on 13 Jun 07.  If you have not yet seen or been briefed on the entire message, go through your chain of command and ask for the email entitled "A Message from the Canadian Forces Provost Marshal---Message du Grand Prévôt des Forces canadiennes"

…
Police services in the Maritimes have had the practice of accepting MP as lateral transfers.  Commencing this fall, the RCMP plans to re> view MP applicants and subject them to a 5 week or 24 week training program in place of the regular Depot training depending on their training and experience.  MP accepted under this program would enter the RCMP at the Constable rank regardless of their military rank held. 
…

Obviously much remains to be learnt from the RCMP side of the house but the intent is clear.