Most Canadians can't identify the war during which Canadians fought at Vimy

[Goose15]

I find this quite interesting [and yes very sad] hearing about the lack of Canadian History. I am a 2011 graduate from High School; at my high school (Ontario) Canadian History was and still is a course that is mandatory for graduation. We also did not focus on the "Discovering America" type stuff. Our units were strictly Canadian. In fact in relation to this thread we had a unit and a half on WWI that included one of our years largest tests as well as a research project.

 

[Tyson Fox]

What's the big deal, it's a hundred year old battle. It's just a piece of trivia, and no one is dumber for not knowing it. It would be as irrational as getting upset if someone doesn't know what wars Wolverine fought in.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I wonder if they felt the same way about Ridgeway in 1966... or maybe, you know, more things happened in a hundred year span that was fresher in their minds.  :

 

[dimsum]

What's the big deal, it's a hundred year old battle. It's just a piece of trivia, and no one is dumber for not knowing it. It would be as irrational as getting upset if someone doesn't know what wars Wolverine fought in.

I'm going to assume you're not just trolling.

Vimy Ridge is not just "a piece of trivia".  It was the first time in an expeditionary war that the entire Canadian Corps fought together under Canadian leadership instead of being "one of the Colonials". 

To put it simply, that was the moment when Canada (as a nation) realized it could step outside the UK's shadow.

 

[Tyson Fox]

Ah yes, start off your rebuttal by trying to discredit my intentions.

Well, I'm going to assume you aren't an old crackpot. So why is it important that people remember when a really old battle happened? Lots of important things happen, but people can't remember 2000 years of history. Maybe we should be more concerned that people worry too much about the past and not the present or the future.

 

[Goose15]

Ah yes, start off your rebuttal by trying to discredit my intentions.

Well, I'm going to assume you aren't an old crackpot.

You just did what you complained about.

So why is it important that people remember when a really old battle happened?

He clearly answered this question and what he said is accurate.

Lots of important things happen, but people can't remember 2000 years of history. Maybe we should be more concerned that people worry too much about the past and not the present or the future.

Remembering the past is never a waste. The past shows us where we came from and is a key part of who we are today. The past also tells us what has and has not worked. Everyone here, including Dimsum, know that the present and future is important but to be ignorant of the past, especially such an integral piece - as explained by Dimsum - is excessively foolish.

 

[cupper]

What's the big deal, it's a hundred year old battle. It's just a piece of trivia, and no one is dumber for not knowing it. It would be as irrational as getting upset if someone doesn't know what wars Wolverine fought in.

Simply put, to quote George Santayana:

"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

 

[dimsum]

Ah yes, start off your rebuttal by trying to discredit my intentions.

Well, I'm going to assume you aren't an old crackpot. So why is it important that people remember when a really old battle happened? Lots of important things happen, but people can't remember 2000 years of history. Maybe we should be more concerned that people worry too much about the past and not the present or the future.

You can see how old I am on my profile.  If that's "old", sure. 

Cupper has already quoted Santayana before I had a chance, but it is because I (and people like me) are concerned about the present and the future that we need to learn the lessons that were paid for, sometimes in blood, from the past. 

If you have the chance, go visit the Vimy memorial.  While you're at it, take a trip to Ypres in Belgium and visit the Menin Gate, preferably at or around 8pm.  I think, and I hope, that your eyes will be opened.

 

[dangerboy]

I am going to interrupt this discussion on the relevance of knowing the importance of the battle with an excerpt from the PPCLI's war diary on the events that occurred that day.

9th April 1917
4.30 a.m. Rum issue to all Coys.
5.30 a.m. Artillery opened and leading wave commenced to climb up our lip of craters.
7.10 a.m. Message No.1 received from Lieut. R.L. Haggard O.C. No.1 Co, stating that his Coy had reached FAMINE TRENCH with few casualties and that he was in touch with R.C.R. on right and No.3 Coy on left. Prisoners taken belong to 262 Regiment.
8    a.m.  Major McDougall went from Bn. HQ and established Advanced HQ in FAMINE TRENCH.
8.30 a.m. Message No.2 received from Lieut. Lownsbrough, O.C. No.4 Co, stating his Coy reached final objective at 7.40 a.m. with few casualties. Lieut. R.L. Sladen killed, Lieuts. Cloran and Plumer wounded. Patrol sent down into wood in front and both his flanks connected up.
9.30 a.m. Message No.3 from Lieut. Tenbrocke, O.C. No.2 Co, stating his Coy in final objective. 4 German Officers and 14 O.R. Taken prisoners. Casualties pretty strong.  Enemy resistance weak. Enemy artillery firing on FAMINE TRENCH. Patrol sent out in direction of BOIS DU CHAMP POURRI. Flanks connected up.
9.45 am.  Message No.4 received from Lieut. Tenbrocke, O.C. N.2 Co, calling for bombs, S.A.A. and rifles grenades. Enemy reported to be fairly strong in front.
9.50 am  Message No.5 from Lieut. Lownsbrough O.C. No.4 Coy, calling for bombs, SA.A. rifle grenades and flares.
10.20 am. Message No.6 from Major McDougall advising German snipers very active on left. Hill 145 still in hands of enemy.
11.05 am Message No.7 from Lieut. Lownsbrough stating that wire put out in front of his position.
11.25am  49th Bn.moppers-up reorganised and carried ammunition to front line.
11.30 a.m. Telephone communication established between rear and advanced Bn.Headquarters.
4.10 pm.    No.4 Coy reports enemy in small parties along BRACKEN TRENCH and across country. Enemy Officers seen to ride up, leave horses at Slag Heap in rear and walk up towards the trenches. (Message No.8 )
8.20 pm.  Message No.9 from Major McDougall reports enemy shelling our front and support lines.
[10] th April 1917.
12.50 a.m. Information received from First Army through Brigade that enemy bringing up reinforcements from MERUCOURT to VIMY.
10.30 am  The following report covering situation sent to 7th Cdn. Inf.  Bde.:-
"The Battalion reached Final Objective with about 35 to 40 casualties. Consolidation was at once proceeded with and by 11 a.m. the first and second lines had been made continuous with the exception of 50 yards in second line. During the afternoon, commencing at 3 p.m. the enemy shelled both our lines with 5.9s, 4.2s and 7.7. mm doing a great deal of damage to our trenches and causing many casualties. This shelling kept up till 2 a.m. to-day, the first line suffering particularly heavy. All Corporals and Sergeants of No.2 Co, except Sgt. Fergus are casualties. Casualty report is attached. At the moment of writing there are six machine guns in action but crews are short four men. One Stokes Gun is in front line, but we need ammunition for it and  crew. No.4 Coy is at present occupying a quarter of 42nd Bn front line. S.P.6 has been almost flattened out and I have withdrawn machine guns, two to second line and three to STRAUBWESSER WEG just behind S.P.6. As you will can see from Casualty Report, No.2 Coy is dis-organised. I am sending up two N.C.Os to help reorganise No.2 Coy. Work is well under way and expect S.A.A. bombs, tools and salvage dumps will be completed today. Sniping is still fairly active from the left. Owing to weather and shelling the men are not as fresh as they might be. I got into touch with R.C.R. Officer who reports that they are still O.K with certain reinforcements. Excuse lack of continuity but blame Germans for keeping me up.”

 

 

[ModlrMike]

What's the big deal, it's a hundred year old battle. It's just a piece of trivia, and no one is dumber for not knowing it. It would be as irrational as getting upset if someone doesn't know what wars Wolverine fought in.

Good thing you didn't join an organization that thrives on history and tradition, like the Navy.

 

[The_Falcon]

Shipwreck reign yourself in.  If you can't understand or comprehend why it is important to at least be AWARE of military history, while SERVING IN THE MILITARY, you should seriously think about seeking employment elsewhere.  Understanding the history of past battles is crucial to the development of tactics, training and doctrine going forward. 

 

[GR66]

I'm not shocked that few Canadians are aware of such an important event in our history.  We as a nation are simply not very good at promoting ourselves and our contributions.  I personally am very interested in Canadian (and in particular, military) history so am disappointed like many other people here.

To play Devil's advocate though, is Shipwreck's comment really as "wrong" as it may seem to most of us on the surface.  Followers of this website are either current/past members of the military or have a strong interest in the military so of course we're inclined to be interested in our military history.  Those in the profession of arms (or politics/policy for that matter) also have a practical need know and understand our military past in order do their jobs and plan for the future.

That being said, is it REALLY a big deal that the average Canadian doesn't know if Vimy Ridge was in WWI or WWII?  Or what year the "Last Spike" was driven.  Or the names of the opposing Generals on the Plains of Abraham?  Or [Insert Specific Historic Date or Factoid Here]?  There are lots of details that are important in a nation's or culture's history but is it the details we need to worry about? 

Maybe a more important question to ask is if Canadians understand how our involvement in WWI contributed to our independence and maturity as a country.  Does our teaching focus too much on the details (which unless a student is interested in the topic they will likely not retain) and not enough on the underlying impacts of those events.  Is a citizen that can recite the dates of the Magna Carta, the 30 Years War, The American Revolution, Confederation, Vimy Ridge, Dieppe, Kapyong, the Berlin Wall, Medak Pocket, the Quebec Referendum(s), etc. a better citizen than one that has no idea if neither can understand the political and cultural effects of these events?

Certainly specific dates and events have the ability to focus attention on a shared history and identity, but at some point the importance of the "details" recede as those people directly affected pass on and the importance instead is on the results of the event. 

 

[McG]

That being said, is it REALLY a big deal that the average Canadian doesn't know if Vimy Ridge was in WWI or WWII?  Or what year the "Last Spike" was driven.  Or the names of the opposing Generals on the Plains of Abraham?  Or [Insert Specific Historic Date or Factoid Here]?  There are lots of details that are important in a nation's or culture's history but is it the details we need to worry about? 

Maybe a more important question to ask is if Canadians understand how our involvement in WWI contributed to our independence and maturity as a country.  ....

There are degrees of difference between being able to state that the battle of Vimy Ridge occurred in the Great War vs being able to say that Lord Strathcona (then Donald Smith) drove the last spike on 07 November 1885.  At the very least, Canadian's should know that the transCanadian Rail line was built in the 1880's to complete an obligation to BC stemming from confederation.  If you cannot get the event to the right time period, how can you understand the significance in any sort of context?  Likewise, does one understand how Canadian involvement in WWI contributed to our independence and maturity as a country if one believes believes the pivotal events leading to the independence and maturity were fought a quarter century later against the Nazis?  Canadian's know Vimy better than the final 100 days, so what do they know of WWI and its significance to the nation if they cannot place the battle during that conflict?

 

[George Wallace]

The unfortunate result of this lack of history being taught in our various 'Education Systems' across the country, is fact that we will now be faced with the problem of making the same mistakes that were made in the past, as opposed to having learned from them.  :-[

 

[Journeyman]

While all the reasons for knowing history and the follow-on effect for Canada of this war are all true.  However, the statement "it would be as irrational as getting upset if someone doesn't know what wars Wolverine fought in" -- comparing the sacrifices and the successes to an imaginary comic book character's story -- speaks volumes about the poster's intellect.

 

[dapaterson]

And here I thought he was talking about the war the Wolverines! fought in.



Because nothing is more important than bad Patrick Swayze movies.

 

[Kat Stevens]

While I don't necessarily agree with being able to list off endless dates of numberless historic events, there are certain pivotal occurrences that form and define a country's character.  Vimy is one of them.

 

[blackberet17]

Ah yes, start off your rebuttal by trying to discredit my intentions.

Well, I'm going to assume you aren't an old crackpot. So why is it important that people remember when a really old battle happened? Lots of important things happen, but people can't remember 2000 years of history. Maybe we should be more concerned that people worry too much about the past and not the present or the future.

No one expects 2000 years worth of history to be remembered. But, as pointed out above, key pivotal moments should be remembered.

It's bad enough you seem to consider Vimy to be a "really old battle"...when it was less than a 100 years ago...97 years ago today, as a matter of fact.

 

[The_Falcon]

And here I thought he was talking about the war the Wolverines! fought in.



Because nothing is more important than bad Patrick Swayze Stewart movies.

FTFY.

 

[dapaterson]

FTFY.

Nope.

Patrick Swayze.  And Charlie Sheen.