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Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more

  • Thread starter Meditations in Green
  • Start date
hmm, thanks, i didn't think mortars could reach ranges of up to 13000 metres, well on the topic of mortars, correct me if i'm wrong here but i think i remember reading somewhere that the Arty "stole" the mortars from the infantry, i thought mortars were always an arty weapon? Aren't they used frequently in the arty? forgive me if these have been answered or otherwise, but as always i'm looking for more info, lol :)
 
i have a bit of time with the guns and would have to say as a det commander you learn real quick when the guess work is in or out    < #1 open action/ sniping gun> .(also applys as a foo tech) we have tons of data that tells you were the round is suppose to land but that thing called probable error pops up everynow and again. we have fired millions of rds to calculate data with artillery fire through out the years in NATO and it never stops,  the data always changes and the errors always get smaller, and the guess work gets better. that is not to say artillery or motors is not accurate, lots of time and energy has been invested to ensure that the rds land in the area they are suppose to. bit is is still guess work althogh a REAL GOOD EDUCATED GUESS
the advent of laser guided rds will ensure a 95% accuracy rate of first rd target rd eliminating the need for large adjustments and so on. it still all comes down to "we think the projectile  will land here",
as for foo partys getting 2-4 rds on target during adjustment that is best case, put those same people in the mountains (not hills) and see how much difference it makes.its real easy to shoot when you are familiar with your target areas and can navigate the training area blind folded. i am not trying to start an argument here but i  am saying that artillery and mortor fire are guess work. alot of well educated guesses but still guess work as for motors having a range of 16000 m yes they do and we dont have them. but other countries do, they may not shoot that far as it places stress and lots of wear on the tubes. but they do have the abilities to.
have a good evening all
 
Ouch, guess work?


We work out exactly where we are (GPS),then we laze the target to get its range and bearing so we know where it is, then the guns who know where they are (GPS) put a round in the air. If conditions are correct we kill our target. If reality adds some chaos to the equation we are forced to adjust.

Our tools are far better than ever. Which is going to be more accurate a piece of string or a micrometer?
 
Yeah, thought MSTAR has taken alot of the guess work out of it. Very little, if any, adjusting now when it comes to indirect fire.
 
Art is correct, their is an elliptical beaten zone (aligned with the range) both for arty and mortor rds and its size is dependant on range and charge. All FOO and FOO techs know this as the dreaded "zone" (4 PERs = 82%). Even with MVs, GPS and lasers, rds can "wander" , however we can accurately predict were the rd will land taking out the guesswork. But remember we are an area weapon and we do not do pinpoint targets (other the destruct missions) and our tgts should be at least 100m x 100m.

 
As for mortar accuracy, on the Adv Mor Crse we were able to do 1-2 adj rounds and the FFE when doing polar missions with the LRF. When I was with 1 RCR Mor Pl we did an ex with E Bty and Recce Pl 1RCR using MSTAR and a trial version of the LAV OPV. We were consistantly getting 2nd round FFE with the MSTAR and with the thermal/LRF in the LAV turret. On a couple of shoots we could have gone FFE on the first round but we were still unsure of the system and didn't yet believe it was as good as it is.

Alex
 
OK Mortar guy that is impressive we certainly didn't do that well in my time.
Maybe you could answer some questions for me. Some time during the late 50s or 60s a Screwed Barrel 81mm was introduced in the Canadian Army. What in the world is a "Screwed Barrel" ?
Presently I see pictures of mortars with the mouth of the barrel flared. What is that all about?
Thanks in advance.
 
Its a Blast Attentuation Device (BAD). Designed to make life more comformatable for the crew.
 
Thanks Ammo Tech, I can see the possibilities, are there any downsides.
 
The blast attenuation device (BAD) does a very good job of shielding the mortar detachment members from the worst of the concussion tha used to roll off the muzzle with each shot. You didn't forget to put an ear defender down more than one a day.

The biggest problem crews had with the BAD was the way it opened the muzzle for some distance above the end of the staight bore. This meanst that a bomb had to be lowered inside the BAD to get the full diameter of the ogive into the barrel mouth and fingers had to hold the upper part of the tapered body or even be down inside the BAD to hold the round while waiting the order to fire (especially tricky in cold and wet conditions).

It is a good addition to the weapon, firing with it just took some practice.

 
Beat me to it...

Question for Mr. O'Leary.  Do the new gloves for mortar crews really help (especially in cold and wet conditions  ;) )?
 
Good question. I don't have any personal experience with them, I was getting out of mortars as the BAD, and the gloves were coming in. The rumours I've picked up is that some of the troops weren't overly happy with them; but I don't know the details, i.e., whether the compliants were isolated gripes, or if the causes were material based or quality of fitting (or a few each of all of the above).

There were certainly a few long cold days in Gagetown when I would have welcomed the chance to try some purpose designed mortar crew gloves.

 
At least one version of the CTS Mortar Glove was trialled on my Adv Mor Crse in 2001. The mortarmen from 2 RCR seemed to like them, especially when we did our last shoot of the course in December and it was well below zero. I tried a set on but didn't use them during any shoots. They seemed pretty good to me and the CTS guys who were there were genuinely interested in making them work.

As for the "screwed mortar" I have never heard of such a thing. Could it be referring to the cooling fins on the base of the mortar? Or was it some type of rifled mortar?

Alex
 
Any chance that the "screwed 81" is a confusion with the "rifled 120"?

Even if it is two different beasts, maybe somebody could fill me in on the "rifled 120"?  I recall seeing info in Janes' years ago mentioning that we had about a dozen rifled Brandt (French?) 120s, apparently to support the CAR, maybe they were with E-2RCHA?  Anybody know anything about them?  Any good? Why discontinued? Pluses/Minuses vs 105mm/81mm combination?

 
In the mid-80s, the Infantry School was involved in the trial of a couple 120 mm mortar systems.

One was a four barrel arrangement that was mounted to the ramp of an M-113 APC. When the ramp was lowered it became the baseplate and the muzzles could be reached for loading by a soldier standing on the top deck. It could fire the four rounds (electrically fired, not drop fired) in a four round salvo or individually.

Also tested were a lightweight Israeli Tampela towed mortar and the Thomsom Brandt 120 mm rifled mortar. The T-B 120 mm rifled mortar is the one that advertises a 13,000 metre range with rocket assisted ammo, will fire smooth bore or rifled ammo and takes up to a seven-man crew to operate.

The Statement of Requirement for the 'competition' had been written to see the T-B rifled mortar win, the essential and desirable requirements matched that weapon system like they were cut and pasted and no others. After becoming the SME Mortars at the School I reviewed some of the very few documents that were still available, and compared the requirements to every mortar system listed in Jane's to determine that.

Although some folks involved had been convinced we were going to a 120 mm system (one of the reasons for the abortive two-tier advanced mortar course 1985-89) none of the weapon systems were found to meet the requirements for battalion fire support at the time.

I believe one of the principal reasons for the project's cancellation is that there had been no doctrinal requirement established. Although the 120 mm mortar was the representative battalion fire support weapon in the Corps '86 establishments, that was only ever supposed to be a training model for Staff Colleges, not an acquisition plan.

From a reality perspective, one of the greatest limitations of the 120 as a battalion weapon was the significant increase in logistic support required (based on comparative ammo weights) to maintain a similar weight of suppressive fire. If you can equally keep a soldier's head down with an 81 mm or a 120 mm mortar bomb, why use the one that takes four times the logistic effort to deliver it. Some of the promises for new and interesting types of ammo sounded good, but you can only carry a limited total, and how much HE and WP do you trade for sexy single-purpose rounds?

The various 120 mm systems available certainly have their niches, and whether they are manned by infantry or artillery troops is immaterial in the long run, but the case wasn't made at the time to continue pursuing the test program for the Canadian Army.

We haven't had a heavy mortar in service since we withdrew the 4.2 in mortar. I'm not sure when we saw its last bomb go downrange, perhaps one of our more experienced gunners remembers.

 
Would the 107 used by the US fulfill the requirements for a heavy mortar?
 
The M30 107 is being replaced by the 120mm.  I believe it's already out of service in Active Duty/Regular units, and may be found in some National Guard formations still.

If the CFs were to go with a heavy mortar, they'd be better off investing in 120mm, as that's where the current research is being focussed towards in terms of guided projectiles, fire control systems, etc.
 
I think 1/3 to 1/2 of all reserve artillery regiments should be converted to mortar.  I think the reserves would be able to make good use of this weapon.

Reserve Gunners would take a QL3 unique to their weapon and continue on seperate streames until a common FOO Tech course. I recomend the NCM MOC become:

R021A Artillery Soldier - Howitzer

R021B Artillery Soldier - Mortar

I do not like the idea of splitting the officer MOC, but it would mean that reserve Arty officers would have to find a way to achive a practical understandig of whichever system thier regiment did not use.

Thoughts?
 
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