More than 6,700 veterans from Afghan war receiving federal assistance for PTSD

[Halifax Tar]

I would really like to see 6700 number broken up by role during their deployment(s).  I.e. actively engaged in a fighting organization in the theater,  Combat Support (Convoys, ect) and Rear Echelon Support pers (i.e. KAF). 

 

[Kokanee]

if one can claim "shell shock" (your words) after never hearing a shot in anger, I fear that we have become to weak a society.

I would agree with this.

 

[BDTyre]

I would really like to see 6700 number broken up by role during their deployment(s).  I.e. actively engaged in a fighting organization in the theater,  Combat Support (Convoys, ect) and Rear Echelon Support pers (i.e. KAF).

Or even time frame of deployment. We had one guy that did the same job, two different tours and two totally different experiences.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Pointing out that there are probably scammers in the system is an acceptable statement, IMHO.

Saying you know people scamming and lying is a whole different thing. Now your calling an individual a liar without benefit of medical history or a physician's shingle on your wall. A layman making a highly complicated diagnoses on a spur of the moment, without proof....or thought.

PTS and 'shell shock' are not the same things. Many of the same problems will manifest themselves the same in both, for similar reasons. Causes may be similar. However, PTS has a much more expanded view of things than the simple diagnosis of 'shell shock' from WWI. Medicine has gotten a lot smarter. A person can accumulate PTS and never have a problem. Or they can accumulate it and single incident on deployment can bring it all bubbling up

There's also findings that are showing mefloquine poisioning can mimic PTS and the treatment for either are not the same.

So perhaps that is what the person is really suffering from, quininism, and not PTS. Either way, not having a medical background and knowing the specifics, anyone questioning individuals diagnosis's would do well to mind their own business.

 

[meni0n]

I would really like to see 6700 number broken up by role during their deployment(s).  I.e. actively engaged in a fighting organization in the theater,  Combat Support (Convoys, ect) and Rear Echelon Support pers (i.e. KAF).

Combat Support came out of KAF. People are different and react differently to stress. These statistics will serve to prove absolutely nothing. It would be really bad form If you're going to start comparing people's roles and then start dismissing their claims just because they spent less time outside the wire than others.

 

[Remius]

We should also be careful as to how we classify PTSD within the OSI (operational stress injury) group of mental health issues that afflict CAF members.  PTSD is but one type of OSI but others also exist. 

One can get an OSI from a variety of operational experiences and is not limited to combat. 

One can get PTSD from a normal car accident but may not be necessarily an OSI. 

 

[Halifax Tar]

Pointing out that there are probably scammers in the system is an acceptable statement, IMHO.

Saying you know people scamming and lying is a whole different thing. Now your calling an individual a liar without benefit of medical history or a physician's shingle on your wall. A layman making a highly complicated diagnoses on a spur of the moment, without proof....or thought.

PTS and 'shell shock' are not the same things. Many of the same problems will manifest themselves the same in both, for similar reasons. Causes may be similar. However, PTS has a much more expanded view of things than the simple diagnosis of 'shell shock' from WWI. Medicine has gotten a lot smarter. A person can accumulate PTS and never have a problem. Or they can accumulate it and single incident on deployment can bring it all bubbling up

There's also findings that are showing mefloquine poisioning can mimic PTS and the treatment for either are not the same.

So perhaps that is what the person is really suffering from, quininism, and not PTS. Either way, not having a medical background and knowing the specifics, anyone questioning individuals diagnosis's would do well to mind their own business.

I am really tired of pussy footing around this.  Its happening and I think its happening allot.  You can call me out on not being a medical professional all you want but when I watched a guy get a service dog, the sacrifice medal and a medical release after years of adjusted work schedules.  This guy pulled all kinds of stories out of his ass about what he did over seas.  Even changed his trade and posted pics of SOF guys with identifiers blurred claiming to him.  When I brought it up, I was told the same line you are feeding me.  That's just one I can give you bakers dozen more. 

A close friend of mine and I joke that we seem to be the only people we know who haven't put in some kind of medical claim, let alone PTSD from our AFG tours. 

Its happening more than most people want to admit. 

I get it.  Its a serious issue.  I had another close friend of mine put his head on the tracks in front of a Go Train after we came home.  Its serious, I get it.  And thats why I am so pissed when I know people are abusing it.  And its my opinion that abuse is deep and wider spread than people want to admit.

Combat Support came out of KAF. People are different and react differently to stress. These statistics will serve to prove absolutely nothing. It would be really bad form If you're going to start comparing people's roles and then start dismissing their claims just because they spent less time outside the wire than others.

I don't want to compare any role.  I just want to dissect the volume of claims and see what roles they are coming from.

We should also be careful as to how we classify PTSD within the OSI (operational stress injury) group of mental health issues that afflict CAF members.  PTSD is but one type of OSI but others also exist. 

One can get an OSI from a variety of operational experiences and is not limited to combat. 

One can get PTSD from a normal car accident but may not be necessarily an OSI. 

I have no quarrel with definitions. 

 

[Remius]

I would really like to see 6700 number broken up by role during their deployment(s).  I.e. actively engaged in a fighting organization in the theater,  Combat Support (Convoys, ect) and Rear Echelon Support pers (i.e. KAF).

There would be value in that sort of thing.  Also a breakdown of people who might be more prone to OSIs if that is in fact possible.  I know two guys that were having issues before they left and came back with even more. 

So many complicated factors.

 

[Pieman]

I am really tired of ***** footing around this.  Its happening and I think its happening allot.  You can call me out on not being a medical professional all you want but when I watched a guy get a service dog, the sacrifice medal and a medical release after years of adjusted work schedules.  This guy pulled all kinds of stories out of his *** about what he did over seas.  Even changed his trade and posted pics of SOF guys with identifiers blurred claiming to him.  When I brought it up, I was told the same line you are feeding me.  That's just one I can give you bakers dozen more. 

The hunt for the 'cheater' of the system goes on.

Consider this: A full evaluation for OSI isn't a check in the box. The real diagnosis takes many hours of interaction with a therapist and psychologist. The fact of the matter is they are going into the appointments and putting in the time. If you think they are tricking these professional psychologists you are *dead wrong*. It doesn't need to make sense to you, so stop trying. You are not qualified to ascertain the situation one way or another.

Those that tell you they are cheating the system may in fact be telling you that so you don't think less of them. It doesn't mean that they are not injured. It may be simply their way of dealing with it at the time. Like any major trauma in life, there is a path from denial to acceptance. People will go to great lengths to maintain their denial and fabricate any kind of story to support it.

If you think you are helping the situation with your personal sleuthing and arm chair analysis of people is helping, I assure you that you are wrong. If you are so deeply concerned with the affairs of other people go hang out in a high school parking lot. You can gossip all you like there.

 

[PuckChaser]

Combat Support came out of KAF. People are different and react differently to stress. These statistics will serve to prove absolutely nothing. It would be really bad form If you're going to start comparing people's roles and then start dismissing their claims just because they spent less time outside the wire than others.

Let's not jump to conclusions here. If KAF folks had a higher percentage of OSI claims than Combat Arms, then maybe we're doing a piss poor job preparing those folks mentally for a warzone? Or creating toxic work environments that add unnecessary stressors? Or maybe they're more likely to have poor work-rest cycles to keep the beans and bullets being pushed forward?

I think we do a terrible job with mental health in the CAF, and IMO it starts with the lack of any meaningful screening by a psychologist at the recruiting center.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=FJAG]
While I don't for a minute doubt that there are many of our veterans have PTSD from actual traumatic events in Afghanistan, I do wonder how much of the rise in statistics is related to non-traumatic related stress events/situations which mirror what is happening amongst younger civilian workers and the PS sector. Are we as a society becoming less resilient? Are we living in a society where even day-to-day stressors are more than a significant number of us can cope with?

:dunno:
[/quote]

Unequivocally yes. Society today is less resilient and people seem to have a much more difficult time dealing with day to day stressors. I'm not sure where the blame lies but it seems like young adults can't cope very well with a lot of things.
On that note I'm not sure if it's a positive sign that new CAF members are taking their health and well-being super seriously but more and more it seems like new recruits showing up at my units first question is "how do I make an appointment with VA to deal with all the injuries I suffered on basic training and battle school". Then it's MELs, Physio appointments and padre trips. Everyone's got problems, myself included, but the volume frequency and priority of going to the VA/medical system is shocking.


For PTSD, unequivocally yes some people are faking and gaming the system. It's not up to me (or anyone here) to play detective. But when my neighbor smacks around his wife "because of all the dead children he seen on patrols" when the guys never left the wire I'm not going to go along with it. And chances are I'm going to say bulllllllshit out loud.  I also don't have to buy in to guys and girls lying about their service "because PTSD".

I get the premise that questioning PTSD claims may prevent members legitimately suffering from coming forward. Agreed. No one wants that. On the other hand I think what's equally damaging is when someone appears to be full of it and everyone around them looks at them like they're full of shit. That's going to prevent people from coming forward too because no one wants to be that guy that people don't believe (because someones making a fool of themselves).


There's a very unhealthy mindset where members deploying almost expect to get PTSD.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Let's not jump to conclusions here. If KAF folks had a higher percentage of OSI claims than Combat Arms, then maybe we're doing a piss poor job preparing those folks mentally for a warzone? Or creating toxic work environments that add unnecessary stressors? Or maybe they're more likely to have poor work-rest cycles to keep the beans and bullets being pushed forward?

I think we do a terrible job with mental health in the CAF, and IMO it starts with the lack of any meaningful screening by a psychologist at the recruiting center.

I've read a few places that members based in KAF suffered higher instances of PTSD than those outside the wire. Explanations included:
-combat arms types are tougher trained and more mentally resilient
-not being able to retaliate to being attacked (getting hit with rockets and just having to hide compared to, say, shot at and able to return fire) leads to a sense of helplessness.
-combat arms types are more inclined to hide their issues because of the stigma of PTSD

I would have assumed the opposite would be true, those outside the wire suffered more but the numbers say I'm wrong.
I remember reading point #2 (not being able to retaliate) was something a lot of psychologists that studied combat supported.

 

[RCDtpr]

One time when I went back to KAF for the night, Pizza Hut was out of pizzas.

Hardest moment of deployment for me........

On a a serious note, I’ve had more, than a few conversations with people who’ve been overseas and did not know I had deployed.  Interestingly enough, the biggest war stories of heroism I’ve ever heard typically came from KAFers.  Wasn’t aware KAF was the scene of 24/7 fighting with insurgents breaching the walls daily......at least that’s what they told me.  Probably explains their PTSD

 

[meni0n]

One time when I went back to KAF for the night, Pizza Hut was out of pizzas.

Hardest moment of deployment for me........

On a a serious note, I’ve had more, than a few conversations with people who’ve been overseas and did not know I had deployed.  Interestingly enough, the biggest war stories of heroism I’ve ever heard typically came from KAFers.  Wasn’t aware KAF was the scene of 24/7 fighting with insurgents breaching the walls daily......at least that’s what they told me.  Probably explains their PTSD

So what exactly is your point in connection with the topic in question. Apart from demonstrating your air of superiority when comparing yourself to those deployed to KAF and also trying to disparage and minimize their contribution by insinuating how cushy KAF was so those claiming PTSD  if they deployed only to KAF must be liars.

 

[RCDtpr]

So what exactly is your point in connection with the topic in question. Apart from demonstrating your air of superiority when comparing yourself to those deployed to KAF and also trying to disparage and minimize their contribution by insinuating how cushy KAF was so those claiming PTSD  if they deployed only to KAF must be liars.

So because KAF was in fact a cushy go, that somehow minimizes the work people did there?  Not sure how you took that away from my post.  While you’re quick to throw out my “air of superiority” you just demonstrated quite the inferiority complex here.

Further, while I’m not going to flat out say all individuals from KAF claiming PTSD are liars (the medical staff for instance saw some pretty horrible stuff) you’re also not going to convince me otherwise that a large number of individuals who suffer from PTSD based on their time sitting in supply etc. there are legitimate.  Sorry if this is offensive to you or anyone else but that’s my personal opinion on the matter.

KAF was not an unsafe place to be and far too many people simply hide behind and accept the explanation that “everyone perceives things differently” and it’s a crock.

Again, are all individuals who spent their time in KAF and suffer from PTSD faking it?  Of course not.  Are a good number of them not legitimate though?  I believe so.

 

[meni0n]

So because KAF was in fact a cushy go, that somehow minimizes the work people did there?  Not sure how you took that away from my post.  While you’re quick to throw out my “air of superiority” you just demonstrated quite the inferiority complex here.

Further, while I’m not going to flat out say all individuals from KAF claiming PTSD are liars (the medical staff for instance saw some pretty horrible stuff) you’re also not going to convince me otherwise that a large number of individuals who suffer from PTSD based on their time sitting in supply etc. there are legitimate.  Sorry if this is offensive to you or anyone else but that’s my personal opinion on the matter.

KAF was not an unsafe place to be and far too many people simply hide behind and accept the explanation that “everyone perceives things differently” and it’s a crock.

Again, are all individuals who spent their time in KAF and suffer from PTSD faking it?  Of course not.  Are a good number of them not legitimate though?  I believe so.

I don't have an air of inferiority, I just dislike the attitude perpetuated by people that were based outside the wire that those in KAF were "WOGs", which basically what you were insinuating in your earlier comments and have reiterated in your latest ones. What you did is minimize contribution of a whole group of people because of your perception of how much harder your tour was because you were out in a FOB and then you go on to say that you believe that soldiers who were based in KAF that claim PTSD are mostly liars. You clearly have no idea what most of the NSE did and then use that ignorance to form your opinion. You could have kept it to yourself but you decided to come to the thread and throw those cheap comments in here.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I am really tired of ***** footing around this.  Its happening and I think its happening allot. 

I rationalize it with the thought that if even only one life is saved, it's worth it.

 

[BDTyre]

One time when I went back to KAF for the night, Pizza Hut was out of pizzas.

Hardest moment of deployment for me........

And in all seriousness there was an individual who had an office job at KAF that had to be pulled aside by the MPs after throwing what can only be described as a temper tantrum at having to wait an additional 15 minutes after the all-sounded to get his Tim Horton's coffee he had paid for prior to the rocket warning sounding.

 

[Blackadder1916]

And in all seriousness there was an individual who had an office job at KAF that had to be pulled aside by the MPs after throwing what can only be described as a temper tantrum at having to wait an additional 15 minutes after the all-sounded to get his Tim Horton's coffee he had paid for prior to the rocket warning sounding.

Don't know if you are relating this as an (sarcastic?) example of how hard it was at KAF or as an example of a potential mental health episode.  On the face of it, the immediate reaction of most would probably be "what an arsehole", however my immediate thought when I read this was "hmm, manifestation of stress reaction?, how did this person fare after they got home".  See the difference.

 

[stoker dave]

I was deployed to Gulf War I on one of the three ships.  I will not compare Gulf War I to anything else (such as foot patrols in Afghanistan) but it was certainly stressful enough. 

Of the three ships (and two crews counting the Protecteur rotation) that was about 1,500 sailors at sea. 

I am not aware of a single PTSD incident, report or diagnosis during or afterwards.  Maybe there were some; but I am not aware of any.  I stayed with my ship for about a year after returning to Halifax.

So, if we apply some statistics, how many of those 1,500 might have had or been diagnosed with PTSD?