Military Making Pitch to Aboriginal Youth ($1,200 bonus for aboriginals)

[FastEddy]

That's still three weeks longer than other recruits get, and shouldn't everyone be given the chance to have the little pre-test to determine if the military life is for them?
I should think that would apply to any young person leaving home and community for the first time, strong sense of community is not exclusive to aboriginal youth living in remote communities.

But if statitistics earlier posted here are correct, aboriginals are already represented fairly, and further, other than to fill quotas what is the point? I like the idea of spending that money to open recruiting centres in less populated areas or sending recruiters to remote areas to contact all people living in remote areas, not just aboriginal peoples. One army, one colour.

Admittedly aboriginal people have suffered a great deal. But they have also been given much in the way of support. I just see this program as a real slippery slope. There are plenty of minority groups that will claim prior bad acts should afford them the same treatment. What about descendants of japanese canadians who were interred during WWII? What about the Irish who were fed a steady diet of racism in this country? At least in the military we should be able to show our true multi-culturalism by not allowing any one group to claim more disadvantage than any other. IMHO

NavComm, having read this thread from end to end, I find your rebuttal to "Kincanucks" (The proclaimed
Expert on Recruitment, which has been pointed out to us ), refreshingly encompassing the sentiments of most of us.

However, I have difficulty in assigning credibility to any one in this field that cannot or will not provide answers
to simple inquires as to the Total number of CAF Recruitment applications and of that number, how many
where rejected over a 12 month period. Also what was the National annual quote for that period.

 

[jmacleod]

I would venture to guess that this plan did not originate in DND, but rather in the offices of the
Minister responsible for Aboriginal Affairs, Hon. Andrew Scott, MP, representing Fredericton NB.
This is essentially an enlistment incentive, not unusal in the Canadian Forces, but should not be
confined to strictly Aboriginal enlistments, unless Scott's Ministry is prepared to pay for it, without
use of scarce DND - CF financial resources. But over the period including World WarI,II, Korea,
Peace and Peace Enforcement operations, the Canadian Army in particular has enlisted many
Aboriginal soldiers, many if not most, outstanding in their service. But even a cursory glance at
training logistics, resources, instructional staff, long term goals, etc. indicate a major problem for
the hard pressed Canadian Army in particular to  achieve the ability to fill the ranks of various
units, particulary the Infantry regiments, so the Aboriginal enlistment program may not result
in additional personnel joining for what should be a long term military career. MacLeod

 

[thorbahn]

Does anybody know if this incentive applies to reserve force or just reg?

Also, how aboriginal would one have to be? Would just having Native status and a "green card" do it?

This may apply to a friend of mine.

 

[kincanucks]

Does anybody know if this incentive applies to reserve force or just reg?

Also, how aboriginal would one have to be? Would just having Native status and a "green card" do it?

This may apply to a friend of mine.

http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/engraph/enrollment/index_e.aspx

Look under NCM plans for CFAEP.

 

[Gunner]

FastEddy/Navcomm,

I think Kincanucks has answered why the CF is providing a 3 week program for aboriginal youth.  I know from my own experience with Bold Eagle, some of these kids come from very isolated communities and programs aimed at their circumstances can go a long way. 

FastEddy, until you prove your credentials are as good or better than kincanucks (who I know and army.ca values as a key contributor on recruiting issues), I suggest you stop [edited to remove insulting phrase] questioning his contributions. 

Cheers, 

 

[Infanteer]

NavComm, having read this thread from end to end, I find your rebuttal to "Kincanucks" (The proclaimed
Expert on Recruitment, which has been pointed out to us ), refreshingly encompassing the sentiments of most of us.

However, I have difficulty in assigning credibility to any one in this field that cannot or will not provide answers to simple inquires as to the Total number of CAF Recruitment applications and of that number, how many where rejected over a 12 month period. Also what was the National annual quote for that period.

Perhaps there is a reason he is not posting that info.

Other than that, I don't get what the additude is for - Kincanucks posted the Recruiting Policy on the topic and his own opinion.  There is no need for you to be a prick in responding, so take Gunner's advice and cool your jets.

 

[FastEddy]

Perhaps there is a reason he is not posting that info.

Other than that, I don't get what the additude is for - Kincanucks posted the Recruiting Policy on the topic and his own opinion.   There is no need for you to be a prick in responding, so take Gunner's advice and cool your jets.

Unless I am mistaken, in certain threads a certain CF's General who's actions ,conduct and decisions have been openly discussed, almost to a point of vilifying him. If its acceptable to question the General Staff and
on occasions ridiculing the Prime Minister of Canada. I am puzzled why certain members of the PTB feel it
necessary to come charging to the defense or rescue in this quite simple matter.

Years of Police work have made me extremely suspicious of everyone and any thing or what I hear. So when
following a certain avenue of thought, and Bang!, I run into a road block, immediately the red flags go up.

Since certain PTB feel it necessary to call me to account, then try and following this,

1. Are Recruitment Officers privy to policies and statistics, Yes or No.
2. Do you think that they openly oppose Recruitment Policies, Yes or No.
3. Do you think Recruitment Officers would supply information
   that might be detrimental to the Agency, Yes or No.
4.Do you think they would inform you of Areas where such
   information might be obtainable, Yes or No.

The question was; What was the total number of CF's   Recruitment applications and of them what was the
total number of actual enrollments. Also could the rejections be broken down under, Health, Education or other, for a 12 month period and what was the National quote.

The answer; I DON'T KNOW and LOOK IT UP ELSE WHERE.

In case your wondering, those simple statistics could reflect whats happening with and in our Recruitment.
Areas. P.S. I'm still looking, still no Stat's

But, MAYBE THEY ARE TOP SECRET, in that case I retract my comments and appologize to Kincanucks.

 

[cgyflames01]

The Canadian military has started a public relations and recruiting campaign in an effort to attract more aboriginal people to its ranks.

I wonder if they have to wait 6 months to a year to join. Anyway its out of our controle, right.

 

[TCBF]

"I'm all for diversity, but this tradition of belligerent self-pity has gotten real old"

- Every now and then, a Pearl.  Sapper Bloggins,  'belligerant self-pity' is an interesting  phrase, which applies to much of Canadian - in fact the World's - culture today.  I believe the Indians got a raw deal and in many ways are still getting a raw deal.  It appears as well that they have leadership and 'grassroots' political issues similar to those aflficting 'white' Canada.  Equality in misery, what?

Fast Eddy: Never mind Recruiting Centres, try getting answers out of the Edmonton Public School Board!

Tom

 

[Long in the tooth]

Is the Bold Eagle program still in operation?  When I first heard of that I had my doubts as it was by definition 'racist'.  After viewing the progress (I was not on the course staff but kept my eyes open) I realized that Aboriginals' backgrounds were unique and perhaps they did have a different way of learning that was facilitated by being among their own.

On graduation day the drill was great and the pride of the candidates and their parents was something to behold. 

So while the $1200 may stick in some folks craw, at least it shows DND is attempting to address the issue.  The more people we get through the recruiting office door and into training, the better (I say).

 

[1feral1]

Is the Bold Eagle program still in operation?   When I first heard of that I had my doubts as it was by definition 'racist'.   After viewing the progress (I was not on the course staff but kept my eyes open) I realized that Aboriginals' backgrounds were unique and perhaps they did have a different way of learning that was facilitated by being among their own.

On graduation day the drill was great and the pride of the candidates and their parents was something to behold.  

Back about 14 yrs ago, I was an Instructor at the BSL in Det Dundurn, where in the summers, we used to burn thru QL2 courses, and if I remember there was two Bold Eagles running that year with the late MWO Ray Sinclair of the RRR (Ray passed way earlier this year) as the Coy's CSM. Ray was the first native to become a Constable in the Regina City Police, and he also advanced in rank in the Militia over 3 decades.

The only differences in the course being some native instructors, and a extra time for cultural awarness, and a visit from SIVA (Sask Indian Vets Assn) where the candidates listened to a few spokesmen who served in   the European theatre in the last World War. The CTS and all EOs and POs were the same.

Candidates were also open to sweat lodges (and other things), and so were all staff, which included non-natives, so it was a two way street, and both sides learned about each other.

In the 'white platoons' (including my own) there was some annamosity as the press was always out to the the Bold Eagles,and never paid them a visit, plus they felt (unconfirmed) that the BE's got more ammo and pyro, and that they were getting short changed in other ways (most likely just inter platoon rumour nets as hot as a burnt out .50 barrel).

As for proud parents and girlfriends, etc, at graduation, you'll get that in every platoon no matter what it's racial background is.

The good side to it all was it gave the native platoons some esprit du corps, and some indiividual identity, and I don't think there is nothing wrong with that, and at the end of the day, its about recruiting, retention, and good realistic training, plus if it was a rewarding experience, this can be passed along to more intersted natives who may have been a bit skeptical before hand.

 

[DogOfWar]

I wouldnt mind seeing a company or a platoon or regiment raised up with native dress uniforms. A native fighting unit. Something they could take pride in and breed patriotism. Maybe the recruiters for that unit could fly to these remote communities.....maybe its a dumb idea but I think it could be a huuuge asset. Like a beefed up canada rangers. Of course all ethnicities could join but I wouldnt because I would see it as something they could call there own.....

 

[DogOfWar]

Define 'native dress uniforms'. You do realise that there are hundreds of different native groups, all with different identifying symbols and traditional dress?

I think it would of slim to no help to the CF. We have the rangers as the CF prescense in remote communities. If you want to join a unit thats not in your area, do what everyone else in Canada has to do if there is no unit near them, go to where there is one. (yes, it is harder for someone from Davis Inlet, but you get the idea).

Wasen't there a thread on forming new ethnic based units a while ago? I still say, dumb idea.

Well thanks for helping me out. And no- I dont "get the idea". If a person has no chance of getting to a recruiting centre and cant escape the life he's forced into. I dont see how he is suppose to get there like everyone else. I dont believe they should get "free money" and I dont think they should govern themselves. But this I could see them having. Obviously there are lots of different tribes- should I have said "dress uniforms inspired by native culture"? I said in my first post it wasnt a realisitc idea. Certain leaders in the native communtiy have stated hat there youth join the Marines because of the warrior culture. If we helped them stand up there own unit they could create their own warrior culture.

 

[Sapper Bloggins]

"I'm all for diversity, but this tradition of belligerent self-pity has gotten real old"

- Every now and then, a Pearl.   Sapper Bloggins,   'belligerant self-pity' is an interesting   phrase, which applies to much of Canadian - in fact the World's - culture today.   I believe the Indians got a raw deal and in many ways are still getting a raw deal.   It appears as well that they have leadership and 'grassroots' political issues similar to those aflficting 'white' Canada.    Equality in misery, what?

Fast Eddy: Never mind Recruiting Centres, try getting answers out of the Edmonton Public School Board!

Tom

The conservative ideology of the CAF certainly reinforces the structural inequalities that continue to exist in Canada.
Even when the CAF changes it's policies to try to address some of it's problems, it still doesn't go far enough in dealing w/ the structural inequalities that make some soldiers more equal than others.

 

[DogOfWar]

The USMC does not have any 'native american' units. The reference was made in regards to their tougher basic training program and 'soldier first' mentality. They (not reservation leaders, people running the criminal Mohawk Warrior Society) were referring to the USMC's warrior mentality, not a native warrior mentality

And oh, no one is 'forced into' their situation, You can be out into a bad situation, but you can also get yourself out of it. If you truely want to change your lot in life, you can. You just need to work harder then some other people might have too. Thats life. If your 'stuck' in a bad situation and are not willing to change it, I really don't care then. Anyone can make something of themselves, some just don't get a head start like others do. Life ain't fair. I don't mind if the CF has to fly people out of the remote reservations or villages to join the CF if thats the only way out for them, thats fine. But we aren't a social welfare organisation.

Did I say anything about changing the standard? So we would be a welfare org? I said offer the opportunity.Im aware that the Marines dont have native american units. Check your fire. Quit being so defensive over a no chance in hell idea.  didnt think that mentioning a pipe dream native unit would get you so uppity. Your right. Give them nothing and let them rot in there communities. They could walk several hundred kilos later they would eventually get to a recruiting centre.  :

 

[wack-in-iraq]

heres a news flash, indians...oh wait..natives..no, first nations...no, wait whats the proper word for them this week.. are not the only ones who have a tough life in canada. there are plenty of kids who grow up in poor families where drugs and alcohol are present and they are beaten, neglected...etc, is the CF doing anything to attract them ? no ! the reason is that canada is so concerned about offending ethnics that we have pushed aside the needs and wants of the common white guy. one thing that has always amazed me is that if i say (insert racist word here) i am a racist, but if anyone who is not white says (insert derogatory comment about caucasians here) it is funny... man this stuff makes me mad.

 

[NavComm]

NavComm, having read this thread from end to end, I find your rebuttal to "Kincanucks" (The proclaimed
Expert on Recruitment, which has been pointed out to us ), refreshingly encompassing the sentiments of most of us.

However, I have difficulty in assigning credibility to any one in this field that cannot or will not provide answers
to simple inquires as to the Total number of CAF Recruitment applications and of that number, how many
where rejected over a 12 month period. Also what was the National annual quote for that period.

Fast Eddy, gee, thanks for sticking me in the sh*t.  I'm pretty sure I can do a fine job of that myself.

Just to clear up, I wasn't trying to single out Kincanucks, but he did give a good rationale for the thinking behind the policy. I just happen to disagree with that rationale.  Having read many of Kincanuck's posts on here - I think he qualifies, IMHO as an 'expert' or least has some really really good inside information. And just to put my 2 cents in about his reply to your question about total numbers....I think he said something like 'not that helpful, try Freedom of Information.' Not that he didn't know. But that's a different thread.

I've read all the various comments on here and I still don't agree with the policy, I just think it's too exclusive. I know native people have their own culture but so do other ethnic groups within Canada. Whereas I embrace multiculturism, I think that some organizations, particularly the military, have to be CANADIAN otherwise we'll be hiving ourselves off into all sorts of little armies. Where does it end?

And if the idea is to increase the number of recruits, then offer that 3 week introduction to all disadvantaged Canadians, not just one group.

 

[RossF]

I don't know... To me this is the CF sort of setting white people as the "norm" (I don't like that). Anyone else get this impression?

 

[DogOfWar]

you are missing the point. The kids "rotting away in vancouver" can walk to the recruiter. The kids "rotting" in the north cant hop on their private plane and fly to the recruiter.

Im not trying to "give them more assistance". And you are forgetting the "white" kids on the reserves who wind up there through marriage or other wise. Or the Native people who dont qualify for this "free money" you keep complaining you dont get. Its not as simple as "they get free stuff boo hoo" as you would believe. Its not just a racial or "free money" issue as a location and circumstance issue. Of course being in university you must know all. If you are going to go anywhere in law enforcement I suggest you get over yourself.

Quite frankly this is all I have to say about this. Im shocked at your attitude. Yes all the disadvantged should be taken care of. But your attitude is coming accross like "Screw all the disadvantged I work for mine". PM if you need more.

As for the issue at hand- who cares? 1200 bucks isnt worth 3 weeks to me.  If someone wants to take advantge of a program that offers 400 bucks a week I couldnt care less. Of course it shouldnt be a race issue. But no one on here would take advantge of the program. Its less than minimum wage. Sounds like a case of "thats my toy" like children do.

 

[TCBF]

"The conservative ideology of the CAF certainly reinforces the structural inequalities that continue to exist in Canada. Even when the CAF changes it's policies to try to address some of it's problems, it still doesn't go far enough in dealing w/ the structural inequalities that make some soldiers more equal than others."

Well, if I was hoping for two pearls in a row...

So, please explain.  what 'structural inequalities' in particular are you refering to?  The ones that pay more for some to join than others? 

Exactly what 'conservative ideology' are you referering to as well?