Military concerned by Canada's absence from American-British-Australian security pact

[Colin Parkinson]

Big announcements with churn but no progress.

Also a loss of focus on core things they should be doing.

It's like FELEX: combat systems are sexy, but the hull falling apart, pipes rusting out, no stores avail etc are all the unsexy things that will keep you alongside or stop you from having actual capabilities.

Usually pretty obvious when operators never due a tour on the material side when they get to GOFO. Usually the cross training only goes one way for tech/log folks.

Edit to add: Given this is an official interview, must have been approved by the DM/MND office, so this is weird messaging that is likely broadly approved by MNDO. The politics behind that are beyond me, but maybe there is genuine interest at the Cabinet level for nuke boats on the down low.

We just need a Necomancer and reanimate this guy

Hyman G. Rickover - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[FSTO]

Edit to add: Given this is an official interview, must have been approved by the DM/MND office, so this is weird messaging that is likely broadly approved by MNDO. The politics behind that are beyond me, but maybe there is genuine interest at the Cabinet level for nuke boats on the down low.

For sure this interview was walked by the CDS and MND. Maybe the Minister is a little more Machiavellian than we give her credit for. Sometimes the PMO just needs a slap upside the head and the message she is trying to send is not being heard at the cabinet table. Therefore getting the GOFO's to be more vocal.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Navy_Pete]

We just need a Necomancer and reanimate this guy

Hyman G. Rickover - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

He seemed like a pretty amazing guy; I think the 80s GD scandal for gifts is a bit overblown, especially when you take into account the normal big business practices for the times of wining/dining people. Big picture, I don't think getting some kind of trinket really did anything to influence his decision on a multi-billion dollar strategic program he was instrumental in building from the ground up.

From talking to the USN folks that did the training, it's incredibly robust and seemed like a Masters level understanding of nuclear safety/operation, so some pretty intense course work, testing etc with high standards for a pass.

Also a massive investment in infrastructure, and would be a step change increase on all the material management/risk side of things compared to what we currently struggle to do with diesel subs. I don't think we could manage it even if we flipped our surface fleet resources over to just some nuke boats.

Also we'd need a new base just for the nuke boats; neither base now has the footprint or the standoff distances required for security.

But sure, we'll just pull 1000 highly qualified, motivated specialists out our ass and get it done; I'm obviously lacking a can-do attitude and am the problem, when I should be part of the solution.

 

[dapaterson]

In fairness, 1997 to 2000 was a crappy time but I've heard few good comments about him.

Immediately after Program Review was a horrible time to be in senior positions of responsibility. Your main role was to make least bad decisions, as there were few to no good ones available to be made.

I met him (post retirement) on a few occasions, a decent person.

 

[Navy_Pete]

For sure this interview was walked by the CDS and MND. Maybe the Minister is a little more Machiavellian than we give her credit for. Sometimes the PMO just needs a slap upside the head and the message she is trying to send is not being heard at the cabinet table. Therefore getting the GOFO's to be more vocal.

Just my 2 cents

I'm sure there is something to that, but just wonder if this is a Dunning-Kruger type decision (ie they don't know enough about it to appreciate what they are asking for).

Lots of pros/cons to going nuclear, but would be an enourmous investment in time (10 year lead time?), people (maybe double the Navy and MEPM?), infrastructure (ie new base) and also culture change.

We currently have a ludicrously risk tolerant culture where we need to prove something is dangerous; you can't screw around with nuclear or submarines, so it's like a SUBSAFE on steroids. Even some our basic processes (like risk assessment) are way below what you would do for nuclear power.

With a huge influx of people, resources and a long term political commitment it's doable, but those are all big ifs. And honestly probably easier to do it as a separate service to break off from some of the shittier RCN tendencies and favouring of 'quality of life' over even the most basic safety concern. If wifi is your #1 priority probably not the person for the program.

 

[FSTO]

If wifi is your #1 priority probably not the person for the program.

Whhhaaatttt????

 

[Blackadder1916]

Never heard of him. Not a top performer ?

He was the guy who got rid of the tan DEUs. Said they made him look like a sack of shit tied in the middle. With his physique, understandable; I liked them however.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Whhhaaatttt????

Yep, top priority EC. Next one is a gym in the back end of the CPFs (never mind the HVAC is meant for unmanned spaces). Basic safety ones linger for a decade or more.

 

[Old Sweat]

He was the guy who got rid of the tan DEUs. Said they made him look like a sack of shit tied in the middle. With his physique, understandable; I liked them however.

Hmmm, General Baril (I met him on basic para and we stayed buds) said he chopped them as too British. Their decisions seemed interchangeable. I don't think Bill Leach was prone to make waves.

 

[FSTO]

Hmmm, General Baril (I met him on basic para and we stayed buds) said he chopped them as too British. Their decisions seemed interchangeable. I don't think Bill Leach was prone to make waves.

JFC, "too British, too American, too French, too German". I wish to f*** these fashionistas would realize that there is nothing unique in dress anymore. Everything is borrowed from everyone else. Unless we want to wear what the Huron were wearing when they met Samuel de Champlain we are fated to have a look that looks like someone else.

 

[Czech_pivo]

JFC, "too British, too American, too French, too German". I wish to f*** these fashionistas would realize that there is nothing unique in dress anymore. Everything is borrowed from everyone else. Unless we want to wear what the Huron were wearing when they met Samuel de Champlain we are fated to have a look that looks like someone else.

Not so sure our female service members would be to keen on that approach.....

 

[Edward Campbell]

Hmmm, General Baril (I met him on basic para and we stayed buds) said he chopped them as too British. Their decisions seemed interchangeable. I don't think Bill Leach was prone to make waves.

I knew Bill over the years, we weren't really friends - we had a fair number of mutual friends. I guessed that his appointment was a bit of a reward to the Loggies for being ignored for eons - Engineers and Signals got a more than fair share of CGS/CDS positions but not the good ol' reliable, smarter then the average bear loggies, and Bill Leach was a smart, capable planner and manager. But I think dapaterson has it right: the late 1990s was a sh!tty time for the CF, sh!ttier than most as I recall, and Bill was possibly/probably given the top job because it was hoped that he would do the least damage.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Hmmm, General Baril (I met him on basic para and we stayed buds) said he chopped them as too British. Their decisions seemed interchangeable. I don't think Bill Leach was prone to make waves.

While I heard LGen Leech make a similar but more direct and vulgar comment in another venue about how the uniform looked, he had this to say in a Dec 1997 Commons committee hearing.

Evidence - NDVA (36-1) - No. 18 - House of Commons of Canada

Evidence - NDVA (36-1) - No. 18 - House of Commons of Canada

www.ourcommons.ca

LGen W.C. Leach: I have every intention to comment on the uniform.

You might notice that my body is shaped the way it is. It's not long and thin; it's a little bit shorter and a little bit broader, and I've been in some of those situations myself.
. . . There are going to be two uniforms in the army in the future, and they're going to be combat and this uniform, the green. We are going to stop swapping back and forth. We are going to stop wearing a uniform in the summer that doesn't breathe and makes you like a bag of you know what and is just all-round uncomfortable.​

. . .

 

[FJAG]

I liked the tan uniform a lot. Second only to combats. Black boots and shoes and a green hat with it were silly but I think that was just a financial limitation rather than a sartorial decision.

My tan summer uniform breathed a lot better than the standard weight green one did. Swapping twice a year was not a burden.

I blamed a cabal of CWOs for getting rid of it. I'm not sure if they convinced him or him they ... either way ...

 

[daftandbarmy]

I liked the tan uniform a lot. Second only to combats. Black boots and shoes and a green hat with it were silly but I think that was just a financial limitation rather than a sartorial decision.

My tan summer uniform breathed a lot better than the standard weight green one did. Swapping twice a year was not a burden.

I blamed a cabal of CWOs for getting rid of it. I'm not sure if they convinced him or him they ... either way ...

And then there was the dreaded Garrison Dress, issued at the same time as I recall, which was more than useless.

Three uniforms for each soldier, none of which had anything to do with 'closing with and destroying the enemy' FFS.

Most of us only had two sets of combats, with almost no hope of getting any exchanges done.

'Show me you care more about Office Soldiering than Field Soldiering without telling me that you care more about Office Soldiering.'

 

[FJAG]

Most of us only had two sets of combats,

We had two summer sets and plus two winter combat pants and coats and two sets of summer crew suits and one winter crew suit. I don't think anyone that I knew of ever wore the winter weight combat pants with those rubberized knee and butt patches. And then there was the great - can you wear the combat sweater outside of your combat shirt/crew suit debate? RSMs would become apoplectic at the sight of a sweater worn as outer wear. Have you ever tried to wear a sweater under a crew suit?

Life was a challenge.

 

[Edward Campbell]

And then there was the dreaded Garrison Dress, issued at the same time as I recall, which was more than useless.

Three uniforms for each soldier, none of which had anything to do with 'closing with and destroying the enemy' FFS.

Most of us only had two sets of combats, with almost no hope of getting any exchanges done.

'Show me you care more about Office Soldiering than Field Soldiering without telling me that you care more about Office Soldiering.'

I was "in the room" when we were told to develop and issue a "distinctive environmental uniform." The decision was 99% political - yes, there was, still, after 15ish years a bit of grumbling in the ranks - not just the Colonel Blimps - about the "jolly green jumper," but most people, even most sailors, had many more important things to worry about. Then came 1984 and the first Mulroney government - a career backbencher from Cumberland, Nova Scotia named Bob Coates became MND ... we called the project Coates of Many Colours in his honour.

 

[dimsum]

The decision was 99% political - yes, there was, still, after 15ish years a bit of grumbling in the ranks - not just the Colonel Blimps - about the "jolly green jumper,"

Pearl Grey ranks, Executive Curls and 'Pips and Crowns' enter the chat

 

[Edward Campbell]

Pearl Grey ranks, Executive Curls and 'Pips and Crowns' enter the chat

Once the 'let's reverse everything cosmetic that Hellyer ever did' genie was out of the bottle the rest followed along naturally, didn't it? Even if a bunch of Class C reservist officers doing (important) admin jobs that should, properly, have been done of regular force sergeants and warrant officers, decided to stab the Army Commander in the back ...

 

[OldSolduer]

General Leech visited us and told us about the tan DEUs - one of our maintainer Sergeants told him "you picked the wrong one to get rid of". He was never censured by the RSM or anyone else. I agree - the tan was a far better looking uniform than the green. One thing about the tan - if you are prone to perspire alot then it can be an issue.