Military Brats Born Oversea's Not Canadian's?! Even if in a Canadian overseas hospital!?!

[George Wallace]

ROJ

You are talking of a time when there were two complete RCAF Fighter Wings and an Air Division Headquarters in France and another two complete Fighter Wings in Germany, along with an Army Brigade up in Northern Germany, with numerous other Canadian Detachments in England, Belgium, and such.  These are the children who are running into the problems today, not due to documentation of the day, but bureaucratic fumbling here in Canada by Human Resources Canada today.  Some brain here has thought it was proper to disenfranchise all these children with a simple stroke of a pen, and no thought of who they were.

GW

 

[735_winnipeg]

someone in Human Resources Canada needs to be linch. 

 

[Corpsbrat]

I came across this and was horrified to find this situation is true, I was lucky to be born in Canada before we were shipped off to Germany.
I can't believe our Government would do this to the Military Brats out there.
Read Below.
Corpsbrat
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Peter_Worthington/2005/01/23/907704.html

Sun, January 23, 2005 Forces' babies deprived By Peter Worthington -- For the Toronto Sun You are not going to believe this. At first I didn't, but I do now: Are you aware that someone born in a hospital on a Canadian military base overseas to Canadian parents in the Armed Forces is not automatically a Canadian citizen? This, despite having a Canadian birth certificate and social insurance number (SIN)? Krista Bruton-Anderson is such a case. She was born in the military hospital on the Canadian base at Lahr, Germany, where her father was a soldier (Intelligence Corps). A birth certificate was issued. When her parents returned to Canada, so did Krista, where she has lived ever since. Life was normal until she grew up, got married -- then tried to get her SIN changed to her married name. The ministry of human resources rejected her birth certificate and said no, she wasn't a Canadian citizen, and destroyed her social insurance card. When contacted, DND public affairs at first insisted there must be a mistake -- children born overseas to service personnel, especially on a Canadian base, were automatically citizens. Citizenship and immigration in Ottawa also believed being born on a Canadian military base to Canadian military parents and possessing a Canadian birth certificate was proof of citizenship. Krista knows otherwise. It seems Human Resources Canada has changed the rules since 9/11, without the apparent knowledge of DND and immigration. In 2003, the Oakville office of Human Resources Canada sent Krista's birth certificate and SIN card to Ottawa with the application for a new card in her married name, Anderson. "A few weeks later I was contacted and told my application had been returned as I didn't have proper proof of Canadian citizenship, and that my SIN card had been destroyed," Anderson says. "I have been without a SIN card ever since." At first she thought it was a bureaucratic mix-up. No, she was told, it was new security legislation after 9/11, and that she'd have to obtain "proper proof" of citizenship, pay a $75 application fee, get passport photos, have her identity certified by a notary public and then be prepared to wait eight months while the backlog of citizenship applications was processed. "Needless to say I was astounded," Krista says. "I've lived in Canada constantly since my parents came home when I was around 1 year old. Today I am a Canadian but not a Canadian -- no identity, no SIN. Why should I have to pay to get citizenship when I've never been anything but a Canadian citizen?" Why indeed? Her father, Dave Bruton, who retired from the military after 37 years, is equally upset. "This should concern every service family abroad. A child born on a Canadian Forces base, in a Forces hospital, under the Canadian flag, to Canadian citizens, should have all the rights of citizenship as if they were born anywhere in Canada." That was exactly the view of DND when I called them. It was also the view of Immigration Canada, when I called. That said, it seems Human Resources Canada is the final authority. Krista has contacted her MP's constituency office, where she was treated sympathetically, but without results. I phoned the human resources and was told that since 9/11 a birth certificate of someone born outside Canada is no longer acceptable as proof of citizenship. A Canadian citizenship card is necessary for a SIN card - and that has to be applied for, at a $75 fee. Tough luck, Krista. The constituency office of her MP (Liberal Gary Carr) wants to help, but it's helpless when confronted by a bureaucracy whose departments can't agree. Without a social insurance number, Krista is virtually stateless, and she is filing a formal complaint. I wonder how many of our married Armed Forces personnel overseas realize their second-class status? It's a slap in the face of our military. How dare an agency of government reduce the families of Armed Forces personnel to supplicants and charge them money to prove their citizenship? What kind of security is that anyway? What kind of prime minister is Paul Martin that he allows such an indignity imposed on those who serve the country overseas?

 

[George Wallace]

http://army.ca/forums/threads/25808.0.html

Found a few in the Army Current Affairs & News topics.  ;D

GW

 

[Corpsbrat]

Thanks for pointing it out George. I was flabbergasted to say the least at the mess this is making of peoples lives. Here I thought I fought the good fight to help the Veteran's get their license plates for Alberta. (expected early next month)
Now we have a really serious fight with this. I am contacting the media in Calgary, perhaps they can do a story on this as well, I think  Military Brats  should be warned of this before they encounter a surprise they werent expecting.  Its a sad statement to our country when prostitues from Russia can be a Citizen in Canada without hassels but Military kids are not recognised as Canadian's. What next deportation?
Corpsbrat

 

[carpediem]

I don't know if I have this exactly right but we used to call it the triangle run.

Dependent wives of Canadian soldiers in 4CIBG (Soest, Werl, etc) gave birth (in almost every case) in the Canadian wing of the British Military Hospital in Iserlohn.

...
some sort of birth certificate or proof of citizenship or some such â “ was then forwarded to the company office and the soldier concerned.

The adjutant was quite adamant about doing this right, the first time, so I suspect we had some knowledge of citizenship issues even then and we appear to have had 'workarounds' of some sort.  I think similar 'systems' applied in most regiments/garrisons up North, but I fear that personnel administration was much more centralized and, consequently, much less effective after about 1970, when a much weaken 4CMBG moved to Lahr.

If memory serves ...

This is my life, I was born in that time period (before 1970) at the British Army Hospital, Iserlohn. The birth certificate was a DND Certificate of Birth (DND 419) (signed wth that three colour pen that they used to use on the Permanent CF ID card) which looks very official but is only an interesting keepsake as it is not recognized by any government department other than the CF (who were good with it when I joined the reserves in '85).

When I was 21 I had to apply for and obtain a "Certificate of Canadian Citizenship". This consisted of looking up the documentation of my birth as described by ROJ in the national archives and after waiting a few months signing some papers and getting a big certificate and a wallet card. When I completed this process it was at the same department where new immigrants went to apply for their papers and I went through the exact same bureaucracy but I didn't have to swear an oath or take a test, it felt as if I was grudgingly being acknowledged as a citizen.

My wife was born in a small town in Ontario. She has a typical birth certificate of the time (eaisly reproducible with any color photo copier  and she merily produces this and is automatically given access to SIN card, passport, drivers license etc. I have my nice official federal DND 419 but I can't use it. I need to pay $75 and wait months to PROVE that I may in fact be a Canadian just because my dad was serving his country overseas. All the paperwork was done at the time of my birth, heck they eventually found it in the archieves. Why do I have to have an archieve search done? Why are others original certificates of birth abroad not recognized on the spot? They should at least wave the fee for the first application for a citizenship card. We are treated like we are TRYING to immigrate, we are already citezens, we always were, we deserve a little more respect. /rant off

Guess we are just another set of Canadians that the government doesn't respect...  (and yes, my little inconvenienc does not compare to some other peoples mistreatment (i.e., Veterans) by the bureaucracy / govt)

 

[Fraser.g]

This is the responce that I recieved from my MP Carol Skelton

Recently, there was an issue raised in the media regarding SIN cards and citizenship issues for Canadians born abroad.

Minister Dryden's office, in conjuction with Citizenship and Immigration and DND has apparently resolved this matter.

Constituents are directed to call the SIN Call Centre.  I'm told that the staff has now been briefed to handle such inquiries at:

English: 800 206 7218
French: 800 808 6352

DND is working on a process that will soon recognize the Certificate of Birth Abroad as a valid document for SIN purposes and questions on this matter can be directed to 1-888- 242- 2100.

 

[robbnest]

I too had kids born in Lahr (90, 92) and we were issued "International Birth certificates"  Thus the kids are not German citizens. I believe this is what you probably have.  Check it out.  We also have Canadian Citizen Certificates for both kids with photo ID.
Hopefully these are still valid!!

 

[mo-litia]

Well, it's been almost a month since I sent an email to my MP, (Edmonton--Mill Woods--Beaumont, Alberta
KILGOUR, David (Liberal).), and I have yet to hear a response of any sort from his office.

Thanks, Mr. Kilgour - I should have known that a self-serving politician such as yourself (He was a Conservative until he jumped ship about 10 years ago.), couldn't be bothered to respond to an issue such as this. I know who I'm NOT voting for next election!!

Cheers

 

[NCRCrow]

Forum:
I was born in Iserlohn, Germany in 1970, have a high security clearance and a green and blue passport.

I am a little confused.

Crow

 

[Mike Bobbitt]

CANFORGEN 037/05 ADM(HR-MIL) 015 211718Z FEB 05
CITIZENSHIP OF CF DEPENDANTS BORN OUTSIDE CANADA
UNCLASSIFIED
REFS: A. CIC CITIZENSHIP POLICY MANUAL 1O PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP
B. PASSPORT OFFICE WEBSITE WWW.PPT.GC.CA
C. CITIZENSHIP ACT SECTION 8
D. CFAO 26-9 CHILDREN BORN OUTSIDE CANADA - CANADIAN CITIZENSHIP
1. THE INTENT OF THIS MSG IS TO CLARIFY THE CITIZENSHIP STATUS OF CF
DEPENDANTS BORN OUTSIDE CANADA
2. BACKGROUND
A. PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP. FORMER LEGISLATION (DESCRIBED AT REF A) REQUIRED
THAT CDN CHILDREN BORN OUTSIDE CANADA BETWEEN 1 JAN 47 AND 14 FEB 77 BE
REGISTERED AS CDN CITIZENS WITHIN TWO YRS OF BIRTH AND BE ISSUED A
CERTIFICATE OF REGISTRATION OF BIRTH ABROAD. SINCE 15 FEB 77, CANADA S
CERTIFICATE OF CITIZENSHIP HAS BEEN THE ONLY PROOF OF CDN CITIZENSHIP ISSUED
FOR CDN CHILDREN BORN OUTSIDE CANADA
B. SOCIAL INSURANCE NUMBER (SIN) APPLICATION. THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL
DEVELOPMENT CANADA (SDC, FORMERLY HRDC) REQUIRES PROOF OF IDENTITY, NOT
PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP, TO PROCESS AN APPLICATION FOR A SIN. IN OCT 02, FOR
SECURITY REASONS, SDC ELIMINATED 20 DOCS FROM THE LIST OF THOSE ACCEPTED AS
PROOF OF IDENTITY, INCL THE FORMERLY ACCEPTED CERTIFICATE OF REGISTRATION OF
BIRTH ABROAD. THEREFORE, FOR CDNS BORN OUTSIDE CANADA, THE CERTIFICATE OF
CITIZENSHIP BECAME THE ONLY PROOF OF IDENTITY DOC ACCEPTED FOR SIN
APPLICATIONS. THIS CHANGE APPLIES ONLY TO THE SIN APPLICATION PROCESS. THE
ELIMINATION OF THE CERTIFICATE OF REGISTRATION OF BIRTH ABROAD DOC AS PROOF
OF IDENTITY FOR SIN APPLICATIONS SHOULD NOT BE INTERPRETED TO MEAN THAT THE
CITIZENSHIP OF PERS BORN TO CDN PARENTS STATIONED OUTSIDE CANADA IS IN
QUESTION
3. CURRENT SITUATION. WE UNDERSTAND THAT SDC NOW ACKNOWLEDGES THE VALIDITY
OF THE CERTIFICATE OF REGISTRATION OF BIRTH ABROAD DOC AS PROOF OF IDENTITY
FOR SIN APPLICATIONS AND WILL REINSTATE IT ASAP. IN ADDITION, WE UNDERSTAND
THAT CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION CANADA (CIC) CONSIDERS THIS DOC TO BE PROOF
OF CDN CITIZENSHIP
4. OTHER CONSIDERATIONS
A. PASSPORT APPLICATIONS. IAW REF B, ADULTS BORN OUTSIDE CANADA CAN SUBMIT
ANY ONE OF FOUR DIFFERENT DOCS AS PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP, INCLUDING THE
CERTIFICATE OF REGISTRATION OF BIRTH ABROAD ISSUED TO CDNS BORN OUTSIDE
CANADA BEFORE 15 FEB 77. CDN CHILDREN UNDER THE AGE OF 16 WHO WERE BORN
OUTSIDE CANADA WILL HAVE RECEIVED A CERTIFICATE OF CITIZENSHIP (PARA 2A
REFERS) WHICH IS THE ONLY DOC ACCEPTED FOR THEIR PASSPORT APPLICATIONS.
CONSULT REF B FOR MORE INFO
B. RETENTION OF CITIZENSHIP. WHILE THE CITIZENSHIP OF CF DEPENDANTS BORN
OVERSEAS IS NOT REPEAT NOT IN DOUBT, REF C REVEALS THAT SOME CDN CITIZENS
BORN OUTSIDE CANADA TO A PARENT ALSO BORN OUTSIDE CANADA MAY HAVE TO APPLY
TO RETAIN THEIR CDN CITIZENSHIP BEFORE THEIR 28TH BIRTHDAY. THOSE WHO MAY BE
AFFECTED ARE STRONGLY ENCOURAGED TO COMPLETE THE WORKSHEET PROVIDED ON THE
CIC WEBSITE AT WWW.CIC.GC.CA/ENGLISH/CITIZEN/RETENTION-WORKSHEET.HTML
C. DND 419. A CF DEPENDANT BORN OUTSIDE CANADA BETWEEN 1963 AND NOV 79 MAY
HAVE BEEN ISSUED A NATIONAL DEFENCE CERTIFICATE OF BIRTH (DND 419). THE DND
419 IS NOT RECOGNIZED AS PROOF OF BIRTH AND IS NOT CONSIDERED PROOF OF
CITIZENSHIP. HOWEVER, PERS IN POSSESSION OF DND 419 WERE REGISTERED AS CDN
CITIZENS IAW THE PROCESS DESCRIBED IN PARA 2A. ON REQUEST, CIC WILL CONDUCT
A SEARCH OF RECORDS TO VERIFY CITIZENSHIP REGISTRATION
D. WHILE CIC AND THE PASSPORT OFFICE (AND SOON SDC) ACCEPT THE CERTIFICATE
OF REGISTRATION OF BIRTH ABROAD DOC, PERS BORN OUTSIDE CANADA COULD
ENCOUNTER OTHER SITUATIONS WHEREBY AN ORGANIZATION REFUSES TO ACCEPT THIS
DOC AS PROOF OF BIRTH OR IDENTITY. IN SUCH A CIRCUMSTANCE, PERS MAY BE REQR
TO APPLY TO THE COUNTRY OF BIRTH FOR A BIRTH REGISTRATION CERTIFICATE OR
EXTRACT OF THAT DOC AS SECONDARY PROOF OF BIRTH
5. AS THE CERTIFICATE OF CDN CITIZENSHIP IS THE MOST AUTHORITATIVE PROOF OF
BOTH IDENTITY AND CITIZENSHIP FOR CDNS BORN OUTSIDE CANADA, AFFECTED PERS
MAY WISH TO ACQUIRE THIS DOCUMENTATION FOR THEMSELVES OR THEIR CHILDREN AT
THEIR OWN EXPENSE TO AVOID FUTURE INCONVENIENCE. CIC SHOULD BE CONSIDERED
THE DEFINITIVE SOURCE OF INFO ON CDN CITIZENSHIP. CIC CALL CENTRE CAN BE
REACHED AT 1-888-242-2100 OR CONSULT CIC WEBSITE AT WWW.CIC.GC.CA
6. REF D IS CURRENTLY UNDER REVIEW TO REFLECT THE INFO PROVIDED ABOVE

 

[renfley]

Wes and others, thanks for your support and no I'll never give up fighting against this corrupt government! Maybe my next step is to withhold all taxes from them! Claim that I shouldn't pay Canadian taxes as I am not a Canadian citizen in their eyes! We'll see how far that flies! ;D ;D

You should... I would... what a p*** off....  Just my 0.02$ worth....

 

[winchable]

Well I'm not going to go into a big rant about it, but it relates to this article and this situation.

Today I got screwed.
While I am a Canadian citizen (apparently until my 28th birthday) I have no way of proving it (a passport and a SIN card being proof as i understand) and on my 28th apparently I'm ...for lack of a better word, done.
Which hurts a bit, got to say that stings.

 

[FastEddy]

Here is my E-mail to my local MP:

Please see the item 'Forces' babies deprived' by Peter Worthington in the Sun chain at: http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Peter_Worthington/2005/01/23/pf-907704.html

If this is true then the pointy headed pencil necks have, finally, taken complete leave of what few senses they had.

This is totally, 100% unacceptable and our national government must:

First: reverse this stupid policy; and

Second: fire the director general, directors and managers involved because they are, clearly, mad and, therefore, dangerous to Canada.

I was a platoon commander in Soest, in West Germany in the '60s - several of my soldiers had children born there.   They, the soldiers, were, always, better men than any bureaucrat could ever aspire to be, and their children must not, ever be deprived because their fathers served their country.

Please hold the government's feet to the fire on this one, Mr. Broadbent.   Things need to change ... soon.

SIR; nice to hear a echo from the past, (Soest, Fort Henry - 55-57) Where did Brigadier Roger Rolley go on to ?.

But, back to matters at hand. Ottawa has a proven record of disregard for it Military Personnel, past and present. Just as it failed to recognize the Merchant Marine Service for almost 60 years. The DND seems to have no, or little sway over major decisions other than party lines.

I realize that in any Democratic Parliamentary County, the Military serves at their pleasure. But the DND have little or no sway at all it seems in Ottawa.

I feel that their regard and attitude is akin to one's going to the Dentist (its too painful - to expensive and do I really need to.).

In the case of Canadian Citizenship for the Dependents of Service Personnel born abroad, it is a total disaster and disgrace. Maybe we could expedite the process by claiming Refugee Status, it seems to work for them pretty well wether its the case or not.

But remeber, even if you'r getting shafted along the way (which we all agree you are) IT'S WORTH IT TO LIVE IN THIS COUNTRY AND BE A CANADIAN._

 

[Army-brat]

I just heard about this shit on Citizenship, I was born in Lahr Germany, 86. Although I'm young I had planned to apply for the RCMP in the next month or so, now I can't do anything until this is all sorted out! I mean they didn't even give my parents a birth certificate. All they got was a laminated card with my baby picture on it that states I'm a Canadian Citizen! But about a month ago I applied for a passport and still waiting to hear whether or not I'm going to be luck enough or not! I can be naive and hope!

 

[Torlyn]

I just heard about this shit on Citizenship, I was born in Lahr Germany, 86. Although I'm young I had planned to apply for the RCMP in the next month or so, now I can't do anything until this is all sorted out! I mean they didn't even give my parents a birth certificate. All they got was a laminated card with my baby picture on it that states I'm a Canadian Citizen! But about a month ago I applied for a passport and still waiting to hear whether or not I'm going to be luck enough or not! I can be naive and hope!

That laminated thing IS your proof of Canadian citizenship.  The fault rests on no one save yourself for not updating the picture.  (Which CIC will do for a nominal fee)

T

 

[atlin77]

I have two children born in Germany while we were serving with the Armed Forces in Lahr.  One born in Baden Soellingen in 1967 and one born in Lahr in 1969.  We were told that they were Canadian Citizens and were issued certificates of birth abroad and social insurance cards from Ottawa.  Now my children are 36 and 37 years old and have to apply for proof of citizenship.  They have lost their certifications of birth abroad and now have to try and prove that they are canadian citizens and pay for the priviledge.

For those of you who suggested withholding income tax, I would like to remind you that taxation is a product of income, not citizenship.  Even aliens who earn income in Canada must pay tax on it.

Perhaps a class action suit against Human Resources would be the way to go.  I have advised my MP of the situation.

 

[Torlyn]

We were told that they were Canadian Citizens and were issued certificates of birth abroad and social insurance cards from Ottawa.   Now my children are 36 and 37 years old and have to apply for proof of citizenship.   They have lost their certifications of birth abroad and now have to try and prove that they are canadian citizens and pay for the priviledge.

Try loosing your birth certificate from Ontario.  If you loose all of your ID, the process isn't all that fun, and I know that Ontario has had a hell of a time getting things done in a timely manner.  It's not just those born overseas.  You've got citizenship, you just need proof, as do those of us born here in Canada.

T

 

[George Wallace]

For those of you who suggested withholding income tax, I would like to remind you that taxation is a product of income, not citizenship. Even aliens who earn income in Canada must pay tax on it.

Perhaps a class action suit against Human Resources would be the way to go. I have advised my MP of the situation.

Yes that is true about Taxation, unless......I believe you can pay your taxes to another country; your Mother Country, as many Americans do who work in Canada.   What would happen if your kids said that they wanted to pay their taxes to Germany instead?  How many others are in the same boat?  What would happen if Germany came back and claimed all those taxes "illegally" paid to Canada, with Interest?  Just some musings. 

I believe you have the best idea in a Class Action Suit against Human Resources.

I hope that your MP responds to your inquiries and you can post that info here.

 

[FastEddy]

Yup - proof of the high esteem given to military personnel by the federal civil service ... NOT!!!
(sure sounds like "second class citizens" to me ...)

Oh, well ... they'll probably get around to it ... after they've finished processing all the accelerated immigration applications from Sri Lanka, etc. ... (after all - they'll vote Liberal ... so they're more important)

Boy you don't know how right you are.