Military bases struggling with personnel shortages, internal review finds

[FSTO]

How exactly are the depots set up? An how they do fulfill demands on daily basis? Now I know a little on how they work (not everything but that will change soon) and I agree there are likely many ways to make aspects more efficient but I contend that like most of your broad brush posts you are lacking in fidelity on how things actually are done but interested to see how you think they operate

BTW Depots are 3rd line not 4th which is generally considered industry when you talk about the greater supply chain.


Add in LDA if they are working a 2nd line warehouse and boom a $75-80K a year Cpl in Edmonton. In risk of derailing the thread further it really disincentivizes moving folks as they resist losing that level of pay. Hell I made more as a mid level Capt getting LDA than I do as a Maj (until incentive 2 or 3).

A LT getting sea pay and Victoria PLD takes quite a hit when promoted to LCDR and posted to Ottawa.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

I visited the Supply Depot in Montreal last year. One thing that folks on the outside who say "just do what Amazan/Walmart do" don't realize is that those supply chains work in one direction. Our supply chain has to receive items back. Those industry supply chains work on money - ownership of the assets changes as the money changes hands. When you buy a hockey helmet for your kid its yours forever. Not so with our supply chains. The Queen buys helmets for troops and issues them, but will take them back and give them to someone else. Anyhoo I am out of my depth.

Our most disastrous reorganization occurred when an outsider tried to solve the problem of personnel costs. Magic wands work in Harry Potter. Not so much in the real world.

 

[FJAG]

What I was pointing out is that the $70-80K figure is pretty far out of step with base pay. Apart from a few bases most CAF personnel are not making much in allowances, particularly those posted base side in a warehouse.


Could you specifically list the trades, and positions that are paid twice what they are worth?

I see this repeated by some on this forum, but never see specifics of which trades, and which positions are so significantly overpaid.

I never said they get paid twice what they are worth. I'm not prepared to evaluate a job group's value to society in general. I said that for many the pay is twice what would be paid for on civvy street.

I think much of what we have to deal with is the classification of jobs themselves. Take for example the warehousing field that we're talking about. An average supply technician worker-bee in the CF would be a corporal/mcpl who earns in the area of $5,088 to $5,516 per month (I'm assuming that sup tech isn't a specialist trade which would earn more). Consider as well that the job comes with a fairly generous benefits and pension package. On the other hand on civvy street a "warehouse worker" makes between $2,478 to $3,094 per month and a "supply technician" makes between $3,498 to $5,588 per month. What's interesting to note is that "supply technician" jobs are all in government employment while "warehouse worker" aren't. That said the military pay for a sup tech exceeds even that of a civilian one in that the range is much narrower and towards the upper end. Again, factor in the benefit programs of government workers especially the pension plans.

Whenever you look to salaries for "blue collar workers" across the country, you'll find that the salary ranges are below those of the average worker-bee salary of the CAF on the job floor. That's compounded by the fact that many of our lower level snr NCO roles are also included in the floor level management salaries that come within the civilian job range (let's face it, civvies do low level management different than the CAF - you'd be hard pressed to find a CWO position on civvy street without trying to shoehorn it into some executive level job or other). Once you do rise into more senior management jobs (both NCO and officer) things fluctuate wildly. Government lawyers for example are moderately placed while civilian lawyers earn anywhere from significantly lower starvation wages to obscenely higher wages as do most mid to high placed executives.

Admittedly the example isn't exactly twice, but this is an internet web site where some hyperbole is not only allowed but encouraged.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I never said they get paid twice what they are worth. I'm not prepared to evaluate a job group's value to society in general. I said that for many the pay is twice what would be paid for on civvy street.

I think much of what we have to deal with is the classification of jobs themselves. Take for example the warehousing field that we're talking about. An average supply technician worker-bee in the CF would be a corporal/mcpl who earns in the area of $5,088 to $5,516 per month (I'm assuming that sup tech isn't a specialist trade which would earn more). Consider as well that the job comes with a fairly generous benefits and pension package. On the other hand on civvy street a "warehouse worker" makes between $2,478 to $3,094 per month and a "supply technician" makes between $3,498 to $5,588 per month. What's interesting to note is that "supply technician" jobs are all in government employment while "warehouse worker" aren't. That said the military pay for a sup tech exceeds even that of a civilian one in that the range is much narrower and towards the upper end. Again, factor in the benefit programs of government workers especially the pension plans.

Whenever you look to salaries for "blue collar workers" across the country, you'll find that the salary ranges are below those of the average worker-bee salary of the CAF on the job floor. That's compounded by the fact that many of our lower level snr NCO roles are also included in the floor level management salaries that come within the civilian job range (let's face it, civvies do low level management different than the CAF - you'd be hard pressed to find a CWO position on civvy street without trying to shoehorn it into some executive level job or other). Once you do rise into more senior management jobs (both NCO and officer) things fluctuate wildly. Government lawyers for example are moderately placed while civilian lawyers earn anywhere from significantly lower starvation wages to obscenely higher wages as do most mid to high placed executives.

Admittedly the example isn't exactly twice, but this is an internet web site where some hyperbole is not only allowed but encouraged.

So what do you propose ? If our Sup Techs (Material Management Techs) are over paid, what is your solution ? What about other trades ?

I will admit I am defensive about this because I see the massive impact my trade has every day; and I see and have to clean up the mess people who think they know what their are doing (Officers and Engineers I am looking at you) create. We just had a report that espoused how bad of shape our Supply Chain was in and here people talking about Sup Techs being overpaid. Its obvious we have neglected our Supply Chain divesting from it is not an option at this point.

FYI We aren't Supply Techs anymore our trade name changed too Material Management Tech.

From the CAF recruiting site:

The primary responsibilities of Material Management Technicians are to:

• Manage the purchasing, warehousing, shipping, receiving, stock control and disposal of obsolete stock and equipment
• Receive, handle and prepare items for shipment
• Operate military vehicles weighing up to 10 tonnes and materials-handling equipment such as forklifts
• Process invoices and prepare shipping documents
• Order material from internal and external sources and purchase supplies
• Deliver supplies and provide services to operational units
• Perform recordkeeping, stocktaking and inventory control
• Maintain accounting and financial records
• Process and coordinate repair and disposal functions

FYI Those are all singular jobs on civy street.

 

[MilEME09]

So what do you propose ? If our Sup Techs (Material Management Techs) are over paid, what is your solution ? What about other trades ?

I will admit I am defensive about this because I see the massive impact my trade has every day; and I see and have to clean up the mess people who think they know what their are doing (Officers and Engineers I am looking at you) create. We just had a report that espoused how bad of shape our Supply Chain was in and here people talking about Sup Techs being overpaid. Its obvious we have neglected our Supply Chain divesting from it is not an option at this point.

FYI We aren't Supply Techs anymore our trade name changed too Material Management Tech.

From the CAF recruiting site:

The primary responsibilities of Material Management Technicians are to:

• Manage the purchasing, warehousing, shipping, receiving, stock control and disposal of obsolete stock and equipment
• Receive, handle and prepare items for shipment
• Operate military vehicles weighing up to 10 tonnes and materials-handling equipment such as forklifts
• Process invoices and prepare shipping documents
• Order material from internal and external sources and purchase supplies
• Deliver supplies and provide services to operational units
• Perform recordkeeping, stocktaking and inventory control
• Maintain accounting and financial records
• Process and coordinate repair and disposal functions

FYI Those are all singular jobs on civy street.

I'd argue we need more MMT's, reports have shown our supply system is a mess, if we want to increase our holdings and increase turn around time it means more depots, and more techs staffing them.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I'd argue we need more MMT's, reports have shown our supply system is a mess, if we want to increase our holdings and increase turn around time it means more depots, and more techs staffing them.

Is more people the answer or developing efficiencies in our processes a better way to tackle the issue?

 

[YZT580]

and don't forget that once you sign on the line your material management position may easily be in Yellowknife, Croatia, or Alert. In civilian life you work where you wish and frankly, that could be worth a lot.

 

[MilEME09]

Is more people the answer or developing efficiencies in our processes a better way to tackle the issue?

Honestly probably a mix of both, supply chain management is one area perhaps bringing in private industry to offer advice may benefit us.

 

[SupersonicMax]

and don't forget that once you sign on the line your material management position may easily be in Yellowknife, Croatia, or Alert. In civilian life you work where you wish and frankly, that could be worth a lot.

If you go to Yellowknife, you'll get an extra $1,476 a month (or $17,700 a year ) to account for being isolated. When you deploy overseas, you get your salary tax free. Also, our salary includes provisions for the nature of service. Not sure that's a valid concern...

 

[Halifax Tar]

Is more people the answer or developing efficiencies in our processes a better way to tackle the issue?

I've said it before and I will say it again. Get rid of off the street LogOs. Stop having them become a "jack of all trades and master of none" and have strict discipline officers as in Supply Chain Management officers and solely commission from the ranks.

Put some teeth in our policies. Right now our polices are made of a wet paper lunch bag. Hold those accountable who abuse the CFSS.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Honestly probably a mix of both, supply chain management is one area perhaps bringing in private industry to offer advice may benefit us.

I disagree as that's the reason we are in the state we are now. Civilian Supply Chains exist to increase profit. We cant do that. We need mass amounts of stores in the right places at all times collecting dust until required.

 

[YZT580]

If you go to Yellowknife, you'll get an extra $1,476 a month (or $17,700 a year ) to account for being isolated. When you deploy overseas, you get your salary tax free. Also, our salary includes provisions for the nature of service. Not sure that's a valid concern...

perhaps not if you are single but it is certainly a factor: particularly as one gets a little older or if your spouse has career aspirations as well. It isn't the work that you are rewarding them for so much as providing compensation for one's off-time. It is impossible to put a dollar value on quality of life, tax-free or 17,700 per year simply acknowledges the sacrifice (in some ways) that it being made. Another thing, a fork lift driver may only get 20 per hour but he also gets overtime, a guaranteed 40 hour or less work week, statutory holidays off etc. My neighbour drives forklift at a local factory. His base pay is about 35,000 per year but his annual take home approaches 70 and all he does is drive forklift. No other responsibilities.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I disagree as that's the reason we are in the state we are now. Civilian Supply Chains exist to increase profit. We cant do that. We need mass amounts of stores in the right places at all times collecting dust until required.

Perhaps but it should not take a month to get a part to fix an aircraft. There are lessons that we could learn from an efficiency point of view. We don't exist to make profit but the supply chain should be effective and efficient, both characteristics that are required to run a profitable supply chain. The fact that consumable parts for Tutors (which are only based in Moose Jaw) are located in Montreal is a sign that our supply system is dysfunctional.

 

[SupersonicMax]

perhaps not if you are single but it is certainly a factor: particularly as one gets a little older or if your spouse has career aspirations as well. It isn't the work that you are rewarding them for so much as providing compensation for one's off-time. It is impossible to put a dollar value on quality of life, tax-free or 17,700 per year simply acknowledges the sacrifice (in some ways) that it being made. Another thing, a fork lift driver may only get 20 per hour but he also gets overtime, a guaranteed 40 hour or less work week, statutory holidays off etc. My neighbour drives forklift at a local factory. His base pay is about 35,000 per year but his annual take home approaches 70 and all he does is drive forklift. No other responsibilities.

How much overtime does that forklift driver do? I would argue that most of the CAF is on the winning side when considering overtime...

 

[MilEME09]

I disagree as that's the reason we are in the state we are now. Civilian Supply Chains exist to increase profit. We cant do that. We need mass amounts of stores in the right places at all times collecting dust until required.

True but they make profit by delivering goods on time and on budget. Something we couldn't learn about, I'm not saying everything private industry does can work for us, but I am sure there could be some lessons learned.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Perhaps but it should not take a month to get a part to fix an aircraft. There are lessons that we could learn from an efficiency point of view. We don't exist to make profit but the supply chain should be effective and efficient, both characteristics that are required to run a profitable supply chain. The fact that consumable parts for Tutors (which are only based in Moose Jaw) are located in Montreal is a sign that our supply system is dysfunctional.

I completely agree

Like I said:

"We need mass amounts of stores in the right places at all times collecting dust until required"

Having said that, that's not a sign the CFSS is dysfunctional that's a sign the LCMMs and SMs don't know what they are doing, this is the engineers and officers part. LCMMs and SMs procure parts and insert them into the CFSS and decide how much goes where. The CFSS manages the parts after that. LCMMs aren't Sup Techs, they are Technicians and Engineers USUALLY familiar with the NSNs they are supporting. SMs can be Sup Techs but are generally civilian these days.

 

[YZT580]

How much overtime does that forklift driver do? I would argue that most of the CAF is on the winning side when considering overtime...

every evening shift after 6 is considered OT and he works two shifts equally so there is a lot of OT contained in the basic work week and you are ignoring the more important aspect of compensation for being transportable.

 

[Halifax Tar]

True but they make profit by delivering goods on time and on budget. Something we couldn't learn about, I'm not saying everything private industry does can work for us, but I am sure there could be some lessons learned.

I think all we need to do is allocate and locate our parts correctly and ensure we continually fill stocks as they deplete. Its just that simple.

 

[SupersonicMax]

every evening shift after 6 is considered OT and he works two shifts equally so there is a lot of OT contained in the basic work week and you are ignoring the more important aspect of compensation for being transportable.

Except that those issues are not exclusive to the Materiel Management Tech trade, this is across the CAF. From a base salary perspective, I think many trades within the CAF are overpaid while some are underpaid. Our pay structure is apparently designed to compete with people doing a lot of overtime when, in fact, most CAF members don't. I'd be curious to see how many MMTs stay past 6PM on a regular basis. I bet you it is not a majority.

Having OT in the CAF would most likely improve QoL significantly.

Would you agree with a lower base salary but with overtime compensation?

 

[YZT580]

I completely agree

Like I said:

"We need mass amounts of stores in the right places at all times collecting dust until required"

Having said that, that's not a sign the CFSS is dysfunctional that's a sign the LCMMs and SMs don't know what they are doing, this is the engineers and officers part. LCMMs and SMs procure parts and insert them into the CFSS and decide how much goes where. The CFSS manages the parts after that. LCMMs aren't Sup Techs, they are Technicians and Engineers USUALLY familiar with the NSNs they are supporting. SMs can be Sup Techs but are generally civilian these days.

We used to know better but that was before they trying to justify keeping Montreal open and the jobs in Quebec. Central storage works great if you have a dedicated delivery service attached to it but we got rid of the cosmos decades ago and along with them the scheduled flights between bases. Amazon works only because they have the delivery service to go with the warehousing.