Medals, again; the big one, this time

[Spr.Earl]

I'm sick and tired of our history being not taught in school,our Military being neglected now we have some shit pump trying to change our Highest Honour,hey we let the Gov. change the Valour to Valoure or what ever.
I came to this Country as a kid of 12 and loved the traditions like Dominion Day,Oh whats that you say?Yup Pierre Le Fluff changed it along with many like all one Uniform,Oh who was that.Oh yeh Paul Hillier.

This is no longer the Canada I knew and loved.
I feell sorry for you youngn's.
Step up and speak out and object!!

 

[Bill Smy]

I was once told that when the Government set out to establish a Canadian honours system, in the formal documentation listing which British honours were to be replaced, the Victoria Cross was inadvertently left off the submission to the Queen. Howerver, during all the PR of the day, this was overlooked. 

Most Canadians meekly accepted the changes as irreversable, but a small group of die-hards kept up the fight. Then in the early 1990s the oversight was discovered. At that point the Government was too embarrassed to go back to the Queen and have the VC retroactively formally stricken from the Canadian honours list. Solution? By God, the motto was not bilingual --so instead of awarding the historic medal, we'll Canadianize it with a Latin version of "For Valour"!

As I said, this was told to me second-hand, so I can't authenticate the story, other than to note there must be some truth in it, or why would the VC be reinstated some 30 years?

It's going to be interesting in seeing who, in our political correct world, is awarded the first "Canadian VC". After this Governor General appointment, need I say more?

In theory, I suppose, a Canadian could still receive the British VC. He/she could be serving in a British formation, and the recommendation would go up the British chain-of-command, but of course the approval of the Canadian Government would be required (after Lord Black, don't hold your breath).

Canadians serving with the British are routinely awarded British decorations, and the awards are published in the Canada Gazette.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

By God, the motto was not bilingual --so instead of awarding the historic medal, we'll Canadianize it with a Latin version of "For Valour"!

We have so many people in this country that speak English as a second language (or not at all) that it made a great deal of sense to have the motto changed. You disagree?

It's going to be interesting in seeing who, in our political correct world, is awarded the first "Canadian VC". After this Governor General appointment, need I say more?

Not clear what you're saying - are you suggesting that racial minorities are receiving favoured treatment - and that field commanders would base award decorations on the colour of someone's skin (or gender)? 

In theory, I suppose, a Canadian could still receive the British VC. He/she could be serving in a British formation, and the recommendation would go up the British chain-of-command, but of course the approval of the Canadian Government would be required (after Lord Black, don't hold your breath).

Apples and oranges.  The Canadian prohibition on accepting knighthood go back to the 1920s or thereabouts.  There is no similar restriction on foreign awards.  Interesting to note that the Canadian members of the First Special Service Force just received their Combat Infantryman's Badges last weekend.  In 1944-45 when they were earning them, the US government had decreed that only US nationals were eligible.

I see nothing wrong with making national awards exclusive - and certainly a "Canadianized" VC is part of that trend.  I'm glad we kept it, and glad we made the wording representative of both official languages.

I think we erred in changing the ribbons for the "new" medals - the Star of Courage, Medal of Bravery, etc.  Might have been nice to tie them to the "old" decorations by keeping the ribbons - however, the new medals are not restricted to certain ranks the way the old ones were (MM and DCM only for NCMs, MC particularly odd in that it could go to warrant officers as well as officers, but no one ranked sergeant or below, DSO only for officers, etc.) 

So really, the "old" medals were not replaced just because they were "British" but because they discriminated according to rank.  Brings us more into line with US medals, which are also non-discriminatory.  Seems to fit better to our Army anyway, which was always better at avoiding class distinctions.

 

[Bill Smy]

We have so many people in this country that speak English as a second language (or not at all) that it made a great deal of sense to have the motto changed. You disagree?

How many speak Latin?

I see nothing wrong with making national awards exclusive - and certainly a "Canadianized" VC is part of that trend.   I'm glad we kept it, and glad we made the wording representative of both official languages.

I am not against a Canadian honours system, but why call it the Victoria Cross? If we have to keep the British designation for our highest award, why not keep DSO, MC, DCM, etc?

I think we erred in changing the ribbons for the "new" medals - the Star of Courage, Medal of Bravery, etc.   Might have been nice to tie them to the "old" decorations by keeping the ribbons - however, the new medals are not restricted to certain ranks the way the old ones were (MM and DCM only for NCMs, MC particularly odd in that it could go to warrant officers as well as officers, but no one ranked sergeant or below, DSO only for officers, etc.)  

So really, the "old" medals were not replaced just because they were "British" but because they discriminated according to rank.

The reason some British medals were restricted to rank was not so much class distinction but the level of responsibility associated with the act of heroism.

The same argument applies to our current Orders. A CMM award recognizes not only merit, but the level of responsibility associated with the merit, which is different than that of an OMM or MMM.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

We have so many people in this country that speak English as a second language (or not at all) that it made a great deal of sense to have the motto changed. You disagree?

How many speak Latin?

Outside the Dungeons and Dragons club, probably no one.   Exactly why it is a suitable choice.   Look at US currency, for example - I don't know what E Pluribus Unum means.

I see nothing wrong with making national awards exclusive - and certainly a "Canadianized" VC is part of that trend.   I'm glad we kept it, and glad we made the wording representative of both official languages.

I am not against a Canadian honours system, but why call it the Victoria Cross? If we have to keep the British designation for our highest award, why not keep DSO, MC, DCM, etc?

They are discriminatory and don't correlate directly with the new honours system.

I think we erred in changing the ribbons for the "new" medals - the Star of Courage, Medal of Bravery, etc.   Might have been nice to tie them to the "old" decorations by keeping the ribbons - however, the new medals are not restricted to certain ranks the way the old ones were (MM and DCM only for NCMs, MC particularly odd in that it could go to warrant officers as well as officers, but no one ranked sergeant or below, DSO only for officers, etc.)  

So really, the "old" medals were not replaced just because they were "British" but because they discriminated according to rank.

The reason some British medals were restricted to rank was not so much class distinction but the level of responsibility associated with the act of heroism.

The same argument applies to our current Orders. A CMM award recognizes not only merit, but the level of responsibility associated with the merit, which is different than that of an OMM or MMM.

Right, so under the old system you got a DSO only to battalion commanders and the occasional company commander and then the BEM to warrant officers and nothing for meritorious Other Ranks.   Now we have the Order of Military Merit.   The new system neatly captures the two streams of recognition - merit, and bravery.   Merit should be tied to rank and responsibility; physical courage not so much.  Smokey Smith was a private and Cec Merritt was a Lieutenant Colonel, both performed comparable acts of bravery.  John Foote only held honourary rank, as a captain, and was recognized with the VC not for killing people (though he did lay down cover fire with a Bren Gun) but for volunteering to spend the rest of the war in captivity.  All worthy VCs.

My only concern with the bravery awards is that IIRC they're (or at least the MB, not sure about the CV or SC) not awarded solely for combat or "military" bravery; if we ever do get involved in another war we might want to distinguish somehow between combat awards (charging a machinegun) with non-combat awards (pulling an injured person from a burning building).

Other than that, I'd say the system of honours has been streamlined for the better.  I also didn't like that the old awards couldn't be awarded posthumously; had Smokey been killed and the VC turned down, all he qualified for was a Mention in Despatches - MM and DCM weren't given posthumously.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Outside the Dungeons and Dragons club, probably no one.   Exactly why it is a suitable choice.   Look at US currency, for example - I don't know what E Pluribus Unum means.

From many: one. 

 

[Danjanou]

From many: one. 

Funny Edward, never pictured you as a D&D type. 8) Maybe LOTR, you do look a bit like Gandolf.

Seriously I'm with the majority here, some things just should just not be changed and this is one of them. I'm also a bit disappointed by the timing of this "debate" with Sgt Smith VC barely in his grave (and yeah I know he was cremated and his ashes scattered at sea, but you get my drift). I'd expect better from a fellow soldier General Senecal, sir.

Also bang on with your take on PET mon Colonel.

 

[baboon6]

Australia has also introduced its own awards system but also retained the VC. The British medals have changed too. There are still separate medals for each service/environment eg. Military Cross, Distinguished Flying Cross, but now everyone is eligible for them, the old MM/DFM/DSM have been eliminated. The exception is the DSO, still only for officers, but now only for performance in command, not a "near-miss" for a VC as it sometimes was. A new medal, the Conspicuous Gallantry Cross, has been introduced to replace the DCM/CGM and in some circumstances the DSO.

 

[Kirkhill]

Used to be that lack of Latin was no laughing matter.    Oh how the world has failed me - and my Latin teacher.   I have a sudden urge to decline.

Cheers.

By the way, generally speaking, I was under the impression that Medals went to ORs, Crosses went to Officers with the signal exception of the Victoria Cross and that Stars were things worn by foreigners and Aristocrats in tights.

I don't know that I disagree with the Canadianizing of the Honours system, Brit-Canadian that I am, I just wish that they could have come up with more compelling, less bureaucratic titles.  Something that tied in to a historic sense - not something that had a Brave New World Year Zero miasma surrounding it.  The Order of Canada actually appeals to me.  The Order of Military Merit does not.  Call me peculiar.

By the way I also think that those invested in the Order of Canada might be awarded an Honourific to attach to their name so that they are recognized for their service in common parlance - Something like, oh I don't know - Sir/Sieur, Dame/Dame?

Sir Farley Mowatt?  Dame Karen Cain?  etc....

 

[KevinB]

I'm a 'little' disappointed the Order or Canada and other orders (for playing a good game of hockey, writing a good book) are higher on the scale than the MB etc.

I for one think the troop that entered a minefield to retrive a injured civilian put a little bit more on the line than 'The Great One'.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I'm a 'little' disappointed the Order or Canada and other orders (for playing a good game of hockey, writing a good book) are higher on the scale than the MB etc.

I for one think the troop that entered a minefield to retrive a injured civilian put a little bit more on the line than 'The Great One'.

How many people's lives did The Great One benefit, though?  Granted the level of personal sacrifice doesn't even compare, but I suppose the cold-blooded analysis would yield that the injured civilian was one person, while Gretzky, Eagelson (before being stripped), et al affected millions of people.

Not sure what you mean by lower down the scale though. I know who you respect more, and I know whom I respect more (not the guy who runs a union for spoiled millionaire hockey players).  Only real difference is the order in which you wear the ribbons.  The guys who went out into the minefield didnt' even get a payraise. *shrugs*

 

[Haggis]

My only concern with the bravery awards is that IIRC they're (or at least the MB, not sure about the CV or SC) not awarded solely for combat or "military" bravery; if we ever do get involved in another war we might want to distinguish somehow between combat awards (charging a machinegun) with non-combat awards (pulling an injured person from a burning building).

Don't forget the other Canadian military valour awards, the Star and Medal of Military Valour:
(from www.gg.ca/honours/mv_e.asp)

Star of Military Valour (SMV)
awarded for distinguished and valiant service in the presence of the enemy

Medal of Military Valour (MMV)
awarded for an act of valour or devotion to duty in the presence of the enemy

Both are junior to the VC.  The SMV is senior to the SC and the MMV is senior to the MB.  Both, as noted, are earned "in the presence of the enemy".  The other valour decoration is the Cross of Valour"awarded for acts of the most conspicuous courage in circumstances of extreme peril". It is junior to only the VC in that it isn't neccesarry to earn the CV "in the presence of the enemy".

Hope this helps.

 

[KevinB]

I thought those had been withdrawn withthe re-intro fo the VC and the SC - MB

 

[Haggis]

I thought those had been withdrawn withthe re-intro fo the VC and the SC - MB

They're still there.  The difference being that the SMV and MMV can only be won for acts of valour in the presence of the enemy.  You can still win the CV, SC or MB in an operational theatre for acts that occur "out of contact".  Since inception no SMV or MMV have been awarded publicly.

19 CV have been awarded, the last one in 1998.  398 SC and 2177 MB have been awarded to date.

 

[combat_medic]

Michael: Si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes 

 

[Cloud Cover]

They're still there.   The difference being that the SMV and MMV can only be won for acts of valour in the presence of the enemy.   You can still win the CV, SC or MB in an operational theatre for acts that occur "out of contact".   Since inception no SMV or MMV have been awarded publicly.

Pardon?

 

[combat_medic]

Whiskey: The Directorate of History and Heritage site states that neither the SMV or MMV have ever been awarded.

http://www.dnd.ca/hr/dhh/honours_awards/engraph/med1_e.asp?cat=3

It is possible, however, that members of the JTF or others have received the award for conspicuous bravery, but regarding events that are not public knowledge, or remain classified. Unlikely, but possible.

 

[jranrose]

Here are my thoughts.
I like the idea and the title it has a nice ring. Unfortunately it is 30 years too late. There is no need to replace the Victoria Cross (VC). The VC is a world-renowned medal. Everyone knows what it is and what it stands for. If this were to be taken seriously, I would focus more on the Cross of Valour (CV). The title "Cross of Valour" is a little inaccurate. The CV is a bravery decoration NOT a valour decoration. Valour decorations includes Victoria Cross (VC), Star of Military Valour (SMV) and Medal of Military Valour (MMV). The Bravery decorations include Cross of Valour (CV), Star of Courage (SC) and Medal of Bravery (MB). But why stop there? Currently there are 6 awards for Valour and Bravery. I believe it should be more streamlined with changing the wording and get rid of the SMV and MMV. To look more like this.

Victoria Cross
awarded for the most conspicuous bravery, a daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice, or extreme devotion to duty, in the presence of the enemy

Cross of Valour/ Vimy Cross
awarded for acts of the most conspicuous Gallantry in circumstances of extreme peril and or distinguished and valiant service

Star of Courage
awarded for acts of conspicuous courage in circumstances of great peril

Medal of Bravery
awarded for acts of bravery in hazardous circumstances or devotion to duty

I understand there are different levels of heroism (pulling someone out of a burning building as opposed to Armed conflict). But all awards should be for all Canadians regardless if they are civvies or military (Except VC), because civilians can be involved in armed conflict on behalf of Canadian interests. This creates progressive stages to include Bravery (MB), Courage (SC), Gallantry (CV) and Valour (VC). This makes the lines a little clearer for awarding decorations.

Also looking at the Meritorious Service Cross (MSC) and Medal (MSM). Both awards are almost the same. The MSC being a rare high standard and the MSM being very high standard. I think there should be an added "Leadership" clause to the MSC. There is a small gap missing for "Leadership". Similar to the British Distinguished Service Order (DSO) or by adding a separate award for the shortcoming.

These are my personal opinions. Your thoughts are welcome.

 

[Haggis]

It is possible, however, that members of the JTF or others have received the award for conspicuous bravery, but regarding events that are not public knowledge, or remain classified. Unlikely, but possible.

Why I said what I said the way I said it.  Hey, you never know....

 

[Armymedic]

This debate would end once a SMV or a MMV are awarded. IMHO, what we currently have is good, it just hasn't be used.

but that seems unlikely unless something bad happens...

Eligibility
For all three Military Valour Decoration, recipients must be a member of the Canadian Forces or a member of an allied armed force that is serving with or in conjunction with the Canadian Forces, on or after January 1, 1993. Military Valour Decorations can be awarded posthumously.

A person must be recommended by the Military Valour Decoration Advisory Committee. This committee is made up of one person appointed by the Governor General, and five CF members appointed by the Chief of Defence Staff. Field commanders can also grant Military Valour Decorations, but they must first have the Governor General's approval.

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/cmdp/mainmenu/group02/smv