Medals, again; the big one, this time

[Edward Campbell]

Yet another guy with way too much time on his hands.

http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=ab099cb5-7894-4111-afa0-6cf1597df53c

Veteran wants 'truly Canadian' military medal
Forces' top honour should be the Vimy Cross, not the British-themed Victoria Cross, ex-general says

Chris Lackner
The Ottawa Citizen

August 21, 2005

"Canada should abandon the Victoria Cross and create its own elite military award, according to one retired general.

The medal is needed now that the last living recipient of the Victoria Cross -- Ernest "Smokey" Smith -- has passed away, says Pierre Senecal, a retired brigadier-general from Ottawa.

And he knows just what the top Canadian decoration of valour should be called: The Vimy Cross, in honour of the 1917 Battle of Vimy Ridge in which nearly 4,000 Canadians lost their lives.

"We took Vimy Ridge after both the the British and French failed to break through the German lines -- and we had four Canadian divisions fighting together for the first time," Mr. Senecal said. "It was that battle that promoted Canada to nationhood."

While the Victoria Cross is a highly regarded honour, Mr. Senecal said it's a British military symbol that doesn't reflect Canadian independence. The 70-year-old veteran said his proposal is not meant to diminish the achievements of Mr. Smith, who died on Aug. 3, or any other Victoria Cross recipients.

We need a truly Canadian decoration, not one instituted in another country. After so many years and so many experiences, we've proven ourselves internationally and we should have our own highest declaration."

The Victoria Cross was first issued by Queen Victoria in 1856 during the Crimean War, becoming the highest decoration for soldiers of the British Commonwealth. Ninety-four Canadians have earned the Victoria Cross, including 16 during the Second World War.

In 1972, Canada replaced the British Victoria Cross with the Cross of Valour as its senior medal for bravery. In 1993, the government created the Modern Honours of Canada, introducing a Canadian version of the Victoria Cross as its top award, as well as the Star of Military Valour and the Medal of Military Valour.

The Canadian Victoria Cross has never been awarded, but potential candidates must demonstrate "most conspicuous bravery or some daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice or extreme devotion to duty in the presence of the enemy."

Mr. Senecal, whose 38-year military career saw him stationed in Germany, Congo, Cyprus and France, said he recently wrote the Royal Canadian Legion concerning his Vimy Cross proposal, but received no response.

Contacted by the Citizen, the legion was opposed to the idea.

"We would not support any movement to re-name or replace the Victoria Cross," said Bob Butt, the legion's director of communications.

Mr. Butt said the organization might consider supporting the creation of a new award, but noted "there are already three major medals in Canada for bravery."

The British Victoria Cross is a bronze Maltese cross featuring a lion perched above a royal crown. The words "For Valour" appear below the crown.

Mr. Senecal said the new Vimy Cross should be modelled after the wooden crosses that were raised by Canadian soldiers after the Vimy Ridge battle.

Steel from one of Canada's vintage tanks or guns could be used when crafting the awards, he suggests.

The creation of a new medal or military decoration can often take more than six years to approve and design, said Eric Richer, a spokesman for the Governor General -- the commander-in-chief of the country's armed forces.

"The first thing we ask is whether there is a medal already in existence that serves this function," Mr. Richer said.

"We're not going to create a medal just for the sake of having one with a different name. We don't want to duplicate other federal or provincial awards."

A new award needs to be approved at several levels: Two committees made upof representatives from various government departments; the Prime Minister's Office; and finally, the Queen.

But Mr. Senecal is undeterred by the bureaucratic hurdles. After gauging popular support for the initiative, he plans to submit his proposal to the government.

"Some ideas start slowly and take their time to make their way. For Canadians -- especially the military -- this would be a major move."

© The Ottawa Citizen 2005​

A couple of points:

"¢ First, I know Pierre Senecal, have for about 35 years or more.   I do not know him all that well but well enough to stop for a brief chat when we meet somewhere or other.   He is something of an Anglophobe, perhaps part of a 'republican' clique which was quite strong in the R22eR a few decades back - around 1970, when I first got to know Senecal.   I think most of that group were driven more by a distaste for les mausdits anglais than for a unique Canadian nation.   I thought Senecal and many other R22eR officers of that generation were, primarily, Québecers; and

"¢ As the article notes, we have already been there and back - in the 1970s when the Cross of Valour, Star of Courage and Medal for Bravery were introduced.   The VC was reintroduced when a distinct set of military bravery awards were inaugurated in the '90s.

 

[Mineguy]

I was under the impression from reading the victoria cross part of the honours and awards page that the vc already has been resdesigned as cdn. "Pro patria" now replaces the current "for valour" in the british one.

 

[KevinB]

Pro Valoure IIRC

That Gen is an idiot WE HAD that stupid "Cross of Valour" Trudeausism garbage, we all wanted the VC back, we got it back - no need to change medals like a sport team changes jersey colours and layout every few years....

 

[Cloud Cover]

Pro Valoure IIRC

That Gen is an idiot WE HAD that stupid "Cross of Valour" Trudeausism garbage, we all wanted the VC back, we got it back - no need to change medals like a sport team changes jersey colours and layout every few years....

What he said, but with a kick of dirt in the air and a goober on the ground.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I was under the impression from reading the victoria cross part of the honours and awards page that the vc already has been resdesigned as cdn. "Pro patria" now replaces the current "for valour" in the british one.

Just wishful thinking, Kevin B is right; the Canadian VC says Pro Valore (see: http://www.gg.ca/honours/mv_e.asp ) (At my age correct Latin matters.)

Pro Patria, of course, is used to distinguish Canada's First and Finest from the lesser lights in the army.  ;D

 

[jmacleod]

I read this incredible statement by Senecal this morning. The traditional Commonwealth Medals
for courage, bravery, steadfastness etc. were eliminated by the crowd around PM Lester Pearson
and their replacements have never acquired their luster and never will. The Distinguished Service
Cross awarded to RCNVR officers, friends oif my late father, meant something significant. The
Commonwealth decorations were eliminated in my opinion to placate Quebec, a major error in
judgement which was evident in the Royal 22nd Regiment Museum, Quebec City, when a Heritage
Canada guide described Major Paul Triquet's VC as "a foreign medal" to a group of visiting US
university students. Canada Post to their great credit designed and issued a set of postage stamps
commemorating the Victoria Cross, and illustrated both the traditional Commonwealth VC and the
Canadian design - similar of course, but slightly different in concept. Canada would be a better place
if our traditional links with the Commonwealth were focused and upgraded, and the traditions of
our links with the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth re-introduced into the Canadian mainstream.
MacLeod

 

[KevinB]

I was tired I should have rethought the U.  Thx Ed.

Macleod seeing how somethings get treated in Quebec these days any Canadian medal might be considered foreign...

 

[Chimo]

"Canada should abandon the Victoria Cross and create its own elite military award, according to one retired general.

The medal is needed now that the last living recipient of the Victoria Cross -- Ernest "Smokey" Smith -- has passed away, says Pierre Senecal, a retired brigadier-general from Ottawa.

And he knows just what the top Canadian decoration of valour should be called: The Vimy Cross, in honour of the 1917 Battle of Vimy Ridge in which nearly 4,000 Canadians lost their lives."


http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=ab099cb5-7894-4111-afa0-6cf1597df53c

Frankly, I see nothing wrong with our present systems of Orders, Medals and Decorations. But, hey, I'm just one guy....what do you think? 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I agree....medals like the Victoria Cross and Medal of Honour hold their own levels of mystique and a level of awe and respect that the Vimy Cross or whatever its called does not. Leave things as is.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I read this incredible statement by Senecal this morning. The traditional Commonwealth Medals
for courage, bravery, steadfastness etc. were eliminated by the crowd around PM Lester Pearson ...

MacLeod

Nonsense.

That puffed up, pretentious, petty little provincial poltroon Pierre Trudeau committed that act of nationalist vandalism.

He used our British connections and traditions to play Québec politics.

He was a man of poor character with too much money and the trappings of a good education which too much money too often buys. But he was an intellectual featherweight â “ swimming only in the backwaters of the shallow Québecois stream.  He had nothing but charisma; sadly most Canadians mistook and still mistake that for ability and brains.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Kudos Edward

 

[Kirkhill]

Nonsense.

That puffed up, pretentious, petty little provincial poltroon Pierre Trudeau committed that act of nationalist vandalism.

He used our British connections and traditions to play Québec politics.

He was a man of poor character with too much money and the trappings of a good education which too much money too often buys. But he was an intellectual featherweight â “ swimming only in the backwaters of the shallow Québecois stream.   He had nothing but charisma; sadly most Canadians mistook and still mistake that for ability and brains.

Hear Hear Edward.

Well said. 

Chris.

 

[jmacleod]

No Edward. It was Pearson, detested by real Liberals like my father, who, along with the Canadian
Legion, never forgave Pearson for elminating what I have heard World War II veteran soldiers
call the "Jack" - the Union Jack ensign, part of our Canadian Heritage - Pearson was considered
a fool by both the British and U.S. government's of the period. He insisted on being called "Mike"
because he did'nt like the name Lester, which was very important when dealing with him. In
any event, it is past history - we are talking about a change in our traditional highest award for
valor in the Canadian Forces. No government, no matter who the PM is, will change that, and
when you think about the committment to place the Canadian military in harms way, it could
be awarded for valor, again. MacLeod

 

[Edward Campbell]

The medals fiasco took place in the early '70s, during Trudeau's much lamented mandate.  Pearson was long gone.

Trudeau was a political vandal; the worst prime minister in Canadian history and a sub-standard human being to boot.

 

[EW]

"Pearson was considered a fool by both the British and U.S. government's of the period."

"No government, no matter who the PM is, will change that ...."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the government already changed the VC in Canada when it left it out of the new 'all Canadian' honours systems in the 70's and then brought it back in the 90's as the 'Canadian VC.'  As for Pearson being considered a fool by the UK and US govt's.  I would expect that any Canadian PM who dares to exercise Canadian sovereignty that is at odds with the UK and US to be belittled by the UK and US leadership.  Since when do we judge Canadian PM's by what the UK and US think.

Nothing against the Union Jack, I'm proud that my great-grandfather and grandfather's served under it in WWI and II, but it was time for change.  As for the Canadian VC, why bother to change it now.  Although if it ever does change, I don't necessarily think naming it after Vimy Ridge is a bad idea.  The Crimean War happened before Canada even existed as a country (pre-1867).

 

[Old Sweat]

EW

Believe me, it was not only Brits and Americans who thought Pearson was a lightweight; a lot of Canadians shared that opinion. He was accident prone, he could not keep control of his cabinet and his government was plagued by scandals.

As for the Crimean War reference, I consider that may be immaterial, although you are certainly entitled to express your feelings. My reason for disagreeing is that some Canadians had been awarded the VC before Confederation.

Edward Campbell put it best when he stated Pierre Senecal had too much time on his hands. After that statement, EC really got on a roll and I would gladly join him, except that we are probably flogging a dead horse.

 

[KevinB]

Why Vimy?

Sorry EW - the VC may have come out of the Serbastopol cannons - but is named for Queen Vic, not a set piece in time.

Im not the worlds most vocal monarchist - but I cant see ANY rationale to change.


On dim wit PM's - I dont care if they think (other nations) our PM is an asshole, but I detest them thinking/knowing that our PM's are dullwitted or incompetant

 

[Infanteer]

Ah Vimy, the battle that no history books seem to talk about except ours....

 

[jmacleod]

The traditional position in the Canadian military of the highest award for valor of the Victoria Cross
will not change - and a debate prompted by BGen Senecal's remarks is not really appropriate,that in
particular, despite many years of neglect, it appears that national defence and security is becoming
a major part of the Federal governments new policies in support of the Canadian Forces. It is
expected that this will be focused in Regina at the Government's policy conference, where some
of the plans outlined by the MND and CDS will be honed, and certain priorities confirmed. Do not know
what these are specifically, but the fact that several senior CF officers are making significant statements
means that the CDS in particular has the tacit approval of the PM - which is frankly, a surprise, because
this gpvernment is not considered user friendly to the military - we shall see how it plays out. MacLeod

 

[redleafjumper]

It is appalling that anyone would suggest replacing the VC with anything else when the last Canadian holder of a VC (Smokey Smith) is
recently deceased.  The whole system of honours and awards, medals and decorations is to reward based on heritage and tradition. 
The VC is a major part of Canadian history and one day some enemy somewhere somehow will put a Canadian into a position
where he or she is forced to earn one again.  A Vimy Cross?  : No thanks.  The VC, even a Canadianized version made from the same Cannon of the Crimea as the original VCs, is much better and entirely appropriate as the first Canadian recipient of a VC was Lt. Alexander Dunn who won  his VC in the Charge of the Light Brigade in the Crimean War.  This thread is well-named as the VC truly is "the big one."