Medak Pocket (info, documentaries, etc. - merged)

[George Wallace]

http://www.nsf-journal.hr/issues/v3_n3-4/10.htm

here is some serious questions raised wich non of them can't be answered by canadian side.
it is quite bite of text so read it carefuly...oh that Jim Calvin is such a funny guy

It is interesting to read from another perspective.  Of course you have to also remember who is writing the story and what the political climate is at the time.  When I went to school Louis Riel was the 19th Century version of Osama bin Laden in Canada.  Today, Louis Riel is a Canadian hero.

In this case, we have an article from the Croatian perspective out of an editorial office in Zagreb (read very bottom of article for source):

National Security and the Future >> Editorial Office, Ruđera Boškovićeva 20, 10000 Zagreb, Croatia.
>> Tel: (385) 1 492 1099, Fax: (385) 1 492 1101 >> info@nsf-journal.hr

Nothing is being hidden from the discerning reader.

 

[fraserdw]

Still fighting old wars if you ask me.  Being a native, I just cannot understand the European need to always be conquering one another.  Let it go, take a vacation, go for a boat ride and enjoy life.

 

[Scott]

:stop: Don't feed the trolls.

 

[OldSolduer]

Still fighting old wars if you ask me.  Being a native, I just cannot understand the European need to always be conquering one another.  Let it go, take a vacation, go for a boat ride and enjoy life.

I didn't ask you and I think you missed the point.

My point is that this person attempted to re write history, and I, along with about 800 other Canadian soldiers, bore witness to that history. Some of those soldiers are stilll affected by the slaughter that occurred.

 

[fraserdw]

Reading through the Croatian site at the link, most of what is on there is revisionist.  It is all fairly typical of a post communist state, the line that "we were victims under the communists, so we could not possibly be victimizers" resonates throughout South Europe and the former USSR.  As time moves on, revisionists theory becomes more and more accepted as the witnesses go silent.  I remember discussing social politics with post communist professors who emigrated to Canada and were working at a Canadian Uni, they were very insulator in their beliefs.  Firmly, convinced that everything that happened to them was forced on them by someone else.  Indeed, Putin has made a career out of convincing everyone in the former USSR that the USSR was OK and the West was the reason it did not work.  What is needed is a total defeat and occupation and an Allied Commission to force them look at their crimes like Eisenhower (sic) did with the "average" German at the end of WW2.  Unfortunately, the balance of power politics will mean that Croatia's European backers will accept a "little" changing of history in exchange for a shaky South Europe peace.  Such is the hallowed halls of political leadership where a moral man needs a shower after each decision!

 

[George Wallace]

Currently Croatia is trying to join the EU and NATO.  As such they have an image that they must clean up and policies to change.  Denial.  Perhaps.

 

[cupper]

You know, it sounds even better if you read it like you are making trouble for Moose and Squirrel.  ;D

 

[noneck]

Hopefully this revisionist bu**sh&t won't effect us next year, as a number of former C Coy ( and maybe 1-2 D Coy and B Coy) lads are going to make a trip back for the 20th anniversary. This gumball rally of ill disciplined, slightly inebriated and politically incorrect 40 year olds is going to be epic!

We are planning to start in Sector West, maybe stay at the Termal Hotel, some drinks at PiPi's and tour Daruvar, Toranj, The Ranch. Hit the Drag, Pacrac, Lipik and Okicani. The head to Sector South via the same route we took in 93 and stop in Plitvice Park. Then through to Kijevo, Knin, Gracac, Sveti Rok, Lovinac and the Medak area.

We are from a bunch of different units that all had Italian Campaign service in WW2, so for the final few days we are looking at crossing the Adriatic and heading over to Ortona et al.

This a year and a half away but we will definitely take a wack of pics and post them, there has even been some interest in documenting it via video.

If anyone on the site has any pointers, places to go or stay give me a shout and we'll add it to the itinerary.

Cheers
Noneck

 

[hr1u00]

Hi guys,

If you think this document is one-side-point-of-view please read the document, wich is made in december 1994. for Security Councile of UN. The whole investigation is made by Canadian Army Major, and gues what - there is no evidence of ethnic cleansing, planed killing of civilians and ofcourse there is no word about "famous canadian battle", altough there was a sistematic destruction of houses and objects as prevention of serb forces to establish their front lines again for repeated destruction of Gospić city.
I'll qoute some key foundings :

However, the majority (71%) of the located dead were military. Although not strictly comparable, this was a higher percentage of military casualties than the global figures in WWII, the Korean War, or the Vietnam War.

Further, the examinations done by the Serb authorities were unsatisfactory. They were extremely undetailed and were conducted in an unprofessional atmosphere, i.e., the supervising judge's drunkenness and corruptness.

Thus, conclusions reached in the preceding examinations are unreliable. As earlier mentioned, an independent examination of what material remains (Dr. Kirschner's report) also fails to disclose any convincing pattern.

Many civilians were fleeing in the company of retreating Serb soldiers, armed Serb civilians or were themselves armed. Thus, the actions of many Croat soldiers were possibly lawful and, at least, ambiguous. Much of the firing was at night. They may have believed they were firing on retreating non-surrendering enemy forces, which remain lawful targets. The law of war does not impose a standard of perfection on soldiers. It accepts that unfortunately civilians near military objectives may be incidentally killed without necessarily breaching the law of war. The inherent ambiguities surrounding this aspect of the Medak Pocket Operation make building a prosecution for unlawful targeting of civilians difficult. The evidence is not sufficiently reliable or clear to obtain a conviction.
Yet, even using a stringent standard, it is obvious from the many witnesses' experiences that Croatian forces fired on fleeing civilians, killing some. However, this action cannot be proved to be illegal.

Care must be taken in relying upon local witnesses. They tend to be unreliable due to their extremely emotional attachment to their own community's cause and their demonization of the enemy. Witness "9" has given several versions of her experiences. While her versions are not inconsistent, they do not cover the same material, some of which it is surprising not to hear in all versions. Her testimony should be confirmed and carefully considered before presentation.
One or even two local witnesses may be insufficiently reliable to obtain a conviction.

Further, there is no strong unambiguous pattern of willful killing emerging from the evidence available to this point. Without such a pattern, it is impossible to affix criminal responsibility upon the Croat commanders.

Clearly, assignment to command military troops is accompanied by broad authority and heavy responsibility. This has been true of all armies throughout recorded history. It is absurd, however, to consider a commander a murderer or rapist because one of his soldiers commits a murder or a rape.»

There are some suspicious circumstances and even some probable murders. However, no convincing pattern can be proved such that a commander can be held indirectly criminally responsible using the doctrine of command responsibility.

 

[hr1u00]

Hopefully this revisionist bu**sh&t won't effect us next year, as a number of former C Coy ( and maybe 1-2 D Coy and B Coy) lads are going to make a trip back for the 20th anniversary. This gumball rally of ill disciplined, slightly inebriated and politically incorrect 40 year olds is going to be epic!

We are planning to start in Sector West, maybe stay at the Termal Hotel, some drinks at PiPi's and tour Daruvar, Toranj, The Ranch. Hit the Drag, Pacrac, Lipik and Okicani. The head to Sector South via the same route we took in 93 and stop in Plitvice Park. Then through to Kijevo, Knin, Gracac, Sveti Rok, Lovinac and the Medak area.

We are from a bunch of different units that all had Italian Campaign service in WW2, so for the final few days we are looking at crossing the Adriatic and heading over to Ortona et al.

This a year and a half away but we will definitely take a wack of pics and post them, there has even been some interest in documenting it via video.

If anyone on the site has any pointers, places to go or stay give me a shout and we'll add it to the itinerary.

Cheers
Noneck

Wellcome to Republic of Croatia Noneck

Hi guys,

If you think previuos document is one-side-point-of-view please read the document, wich is made in december 1994. for Security Councile of UN. The whole investigation is made by Canadian Army Major, and gues what - there is no evidence of ethnic cleansing, planed killing of civilians and ofcourse there is no word about "famous canadian battle", altough there was a sistematic destruction of houses and objects as a prevention of serb forces to recapture and establish their front lines again for repeated destruction of Gospić city.
I'll qoute some key foundings from that official UN document:

However, the majority (71%) of the located dead were military. Although not strictly comparable, this was a higher percentage of military casualties than the global figures in WWII, the Korean War, or the Vietnam War.

Further, the examinations done by the Serb authorities were unsatisfactory. They were extremely undetailed and were conducted in an unprofessional atmosphere, i.e., the supervising judge's drunkenness and corruptness.

Thus, conclusions reached in the preceding examinations are unreliable. As earlier mentioned, an independent examination of what material remains (Dr. Kirschner's report) also fails to disclose any convincing pattern.

Many civilians were fleeing in the company of retreating Serb soldiers, armed Serb civilians or were themselves armed. Thus, the actions of many Croat soldiers were possibly lawful and, at least, ambiguous. Much of the firing was at night. They may have believed they were firing on retreating non-surrendering enemy forces, which remain lawful targets. The law of war does not impose a standard of perfection on soldiers. It accepts that unfortunately civilians near military objectives may be incidentally killed without necessarily breaching the law of war. The inherent ambiguities surrounding this aspect of the Medak Pocket Operation make building a prosecution for unlawful targeting of civilians difficult. The evidence is not sufficiently reliable or clear to obtain a conviction.
Yet, even using a stringent standard, it is obvious from the many witnesses' experiences that Croatian forces fired on fleeing civilians, killing some. However, this action cannot be proved to be illegal.

Care must be taken in relying upon local witnesses. They tend to be unreliable due to their extremely emotional attachment to their own community's cause and their demonization of the enemy. Witness "9" has given several versions of her experiences. While her versions are not inconsistent, they do not cover the same material, some of which it is surprising not to hear in all versions. Her testimony should be confirmed and carefully considered before presentation.
One or even two local witnesses may be insufficiently reliable to obtain a conviction.

Further, there is no strong unambiguous pattern of willful killing emerging from the evidence available to this point. Without such a pattern, it is impossible to affix criminal responsibility upon the Croat commanders.

Clearly, assignment to command military troops is accompanied by broad authority and heavy responsibility. This has been true of all armies throughout recorded history. It is absurd, however, to consider a commander a murderer or rapist because one of his soldiers commits a murder or a rape.»

There are some suspicious circumstances and even some probable murders. However, no convincing pattern can be proved such that a commander can be held indirectly criminally responsible using the doctrine of command responsibility.

 

[hr1u00]

Let go even further with official statemans and documents :

There was no battle between Croats and UNPROFOR in Medak pocket:

There was no armed conflict between HV and UNPROFOR, although, Croatian side stalled retreat, was been said by ex officer of UNPROFOR Vagn Ove Moebjerg Nielsen during the Rahim Ademi and Mirko Norac trial, for war crimes in Medak pocket 1993.

Despite Canadian claims that their forces fought against Croats in the biggest battle since Korea war, and despite that they decorated whole infantry battalion, there was only one minor incident, said colonel Nielsen, ex military observer. He had taken command of peace corps in ex Krajina in July 1993, and he claims that there was no any fighting.
"When Canadians were positioned in front of Serbian forces, i think it was at 15th september, there was shooting on Canadian by Croat forces before we entered Medak pocket, but during the operation, there was no problem, all went smooth. I think that Croats stopped shooting, when they realised that they were shooting at UN."

Nielsen also said that Canadians were not shooting back, and he remembered that Cro side stalled their retreat, and that they during the first entrance in are did not alow passage, because as they claimed it was too dangerous.

Similar thing has said John John McGuinnes, Canadian officer.

After question about battle betveen Canada batt. and HV, he said that there was one or two shootouts, but there was no injured.
He also said that decorations were awarded for whole employement in Croatia, not only for participation in Medak pocket activity.

I hope you guys can accept this discussion established on officila UN reports and documents rather than ones established on ethnic prejudice stories without arguments.

 

[OldSolduer]

Twenty yers already. It seems like yesterday. Yes, pics are needed!

Have a fun trip!

 

[hr1u00]

Hi to you all ,

In my second shot I will try to point you, in a civilised maner , on a huge inconsistencies and discrepancies in the canadian story during the years and also beetween canadian insiders themself on the same incident. Focusing, for now only on the "the battle" itself.  My point is the canadian soldiers by using media have created "the battle" rather then minor incident as it was originally even according to their statemenst (about their reasons maybe later). I will use all publicly available official reports, statements and documents.
First of all you have to know there is no single evidence, report, document or a statement about "the bigest canadian battle since Korean war" from either of these resources :
- UNPROFOR Sector South HQ
- UNPROFOR HQ Croatia
- CANBAT HQ
- CANBAT soldiers statements in September 1993.
- CANBAT Commander Jim Calvin statement in September 1993.
- FREBAT HQ
- UN Military observers
- UN Civil police
- Commander Jean Cot
- UN Security Councile
- Serb HQ, field units or inteligence
- Croat HQ, field units or inteligence
- Human rights watch and similar organisations
- US State department
Amog all of these , there is only few  hardly mention the incident, reporting "minor incident" as sporadical firefigt or few shootouts. One reffering on firefight both sides (craoatian and serb) done on a CANBAT. Mostly given by few CANBAT members.
On the other hand most of these resources does not even mention such incident.
If anyone can provide some non-canadian official report on "the battle" ?

 

[Teeps74]

Hi to you all ,

In my second shot I will try to point you, in a civilised maner , on a huge inconsistencies and discrepancies in the canadian story during the years and also beetween canadian insiders themself on the same incident. Focusing, for now only on the "the battle" itself.  My point is the canadian soldiers by using media have created "the battle" rather then minor incident as it was originally even according to their statemenst (about their reasons maybe later). I will use all publicly available official reports, statements and documents.
First of all you have to know there is no single evidence, report, document or a statement about "the bigest canadian battle since Korean war" from either of these resources :
- UNPROFOR Sector South HQ
- UNPROFOR HQ Croatia
- CANBAT HQ
- CANBAT soldiers statements in September 1993.
- CANBAT Commander Jim Calvin statement in September 1993.
- FREBAT HQ
- UN Military observers
- UN Civil police
- Commander Jean Cot
- UN Security Councile
- Serb HQ, field units or inteligence
- Croat HQ, field units or inteligence
- Human rights watch and similar organisations
- US State department
Amog all of these , there is only few  hardly mention the incident, reporting "minor incident" as sporadical firefigt or few shootouts. One reffering on firefight both sides (craoatian and serb) done on a CANBAT. Mostly given by few CANBAT members.
On the other hand most of these resources does not even mention such incident.
If anyone can provide some non-canadian official report on "the battle" ?

This reads like an HDZ revisionist history lesson.  Are you serriously trying to re-write what happened at the Medak Pocket on a CANADIAN ARMY page?  Seriously?  You really need to rethink the audience you are trying to appeal to, because I sincerely doubt you will find anyone you can convert here.

 

[OldSolduer]

Hi to you all ,

In my second shot I will try to point you, in a civilised maner , on a huge inconsistencies and discrepancies in the canadian story during the years and also beetween canadian insiders themself on the same incident. Focusing, for now only on the "the battle" itself.  My point is the canadian soldiers by using media have created "the battle" rather then minor incident as it was originally even according to their statemenst (about their reasons maybe later). I will use all publicly available official reports, statements and documents.
First of all you have to know there is no single evidence, report, document or a statement about "the bigest canadian battle since Korean war" from either of these resources :
- UNPROFOR Sector South HQ
- UNPROFOR HQ Croatia
- CANBAT HQ
- CANBAT soldiers statements in September 1993.
- CANBAT Commander Jim Calvin statement in September 1993.
- FREBAT HQ
- UN Military observers
- UN Civil police
- Commander Jean Cot
- UN Security Councile
- Serb HQ, field units or inteligence
- Croat HQ, field units or inteligence
- Human rights watch and similar organisations
- US State department
Amog all of these , there is only few  hardly mention the incident, reporting "minor incident" as sporadical firefigt or few shootouts. One reffering on firefight both sides (craoatian and serb) done on a CANBAT. Mostly given by few CANBAT members.
On the other hand most of these resources does not even mention such incident.
If anyone can provide some non-canadian official report on "the battle" ?

Since you haven't learned anything other than to irritate us, see below:

Reported to Mods. Have a great day!!!

 

[George Wallace]

First of all you have to know there is no single evidence, report, document or a statement about "the bigest canadian battle since Korean war" from either of these resources :
- UNPROFOR Sector South HQ
- UNPROFOR HQ Croatia
- CANBAT HQ
- CANBAT soldiers statements in September 1993.
- CANBAT Commander Jim Calvin statement in September 1993.
- FREBAT HQ
- UN Military observers
- UN Civil police
- Commander Jean Cot
- UN Security Councile
- Serb HQ, field units or inteligence
- Croat HQ, field units or inteligence
- Human rights watch and similar organisations
- US State department

Sorry to break the news to you, but I think it highly unlikely that you, or anyone in the public, media, or government, would have access to any documents listed in the above organizations, that would be CLASSIFIED as SECRET or higher.  Your deductions are totally unfounded.

Amog all of these , there is only few  hardly mention the incident, reporting "minor incident" as sporadical firefigt or few shootouts. One reffering on firefight both sides (craoatian and serb) done on a CANBAT. Mostly given by few CANBAT members.
On the other hand most of these resources does not even mention such incident.
If anyone can provide some non-canadian official report on "the battle" ?

Now you just contradicted yourself.  You said there was NO SINGLE EVIDENCE, and then said there was "Amog all of these , there is only few  hardly mention the incident...."    Make up your mind.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Hi to you all ,

In my second shot I will try to point you, in a civilised maner , on a huge inconsistencies and discrepancies in the canadian story during the years and also beetween canadian insiders themself on the same incident. Focusing, for now only on the "the battle" itself.  My point is the canadian soldiers by using media have created "the battle" rather then minor incident as it was originally even according to their statemenst (about their reasons maybe later). I will use all publicly available official reports, statements and documents.
First of all you have to know there is no single evidence, report, document or a statement about "the bigest canadian battle since Korean war" from either of these resources :
- UNPROFOR Sector South HQ
- UNPROFOR HQ Croatia
- CANBAT HQ
- CANBAT soldiers statements in September 1993.
- CANBAT Commander Jim Calvin statement in September 1993.
- FREBAT HQ
- UN Military observers
- UN Civil police
- Commander Jean Cot
- UN Security Councile
- Serb HQ, field units or inteligence
- Croat HQ, field units or inteligence
- Human rights watch and similar organisations
- US State department
Amog all of these , there is only few  hardly mention the incident, reporting "minor incident" as sporadical firefigt or few shootouts. One reffering on firefight both sides (craoatian and serb) done on a CANBAT. Mostly given by few CANBAT members.
On the other hand most of these resources does not even mention such incident.
If anyone can provide some non-canadian official report on "the battle" ?

Three words for you:

Were you there?

Some of the people reading & posting here were there.

 

[George Wallace]

According to your profile:

Rank: private
Unit: 4. brigade HV

Privates are not often privy to the full picture of what is going on.  Referring back to my last post, Privates are also not likely to be accessing Classified Documents, which include archived Radio Logs, Operations Logs, Unit Diaries, etc. 

From what little we know, your credentials to be commenting accurately with any authority on this matter are sadly lacking.

 

[Kat Stevens]

According to your profile:

Privates are not often privy to the full picture of what is going on.  Referring back to my last post, Privates are also not likely to be accessing Classified Documents, which include archived Radio Logs, Operations Logs, Unit Diaries, etc. 

From what little we know, your credentials to be commenting accurately with any authority on this matter are sadly lacking.

Privates most likely weren't even born when Medak "allegedly" took place.  Stop telling those us who may have been there what happened.

 

[Burrows]

Hr1u00,

You may contact me via email in order to explain your intent here.  Until such time as you see fit to do so, your account will remain in read-only.

As has been said already, you're coming to a Canadian site to tell people that were there how it happened. 

If you would care to provide proof that you are who you claim to be (a member or former member of the Croatian 4 HV Brigade - which to my knowledge no longer exists and hasn't for awhile) as well as explain to me your intent towards this site, we will talk.  Failure to provide a believable answer will result in termination of your membership.

Regards,

Army.ca Staff