Married but paying for rations while on course.

[NavyHopeful]

Now, I will ALSO add that, IF the government is looking for ways to save money, great, but is there not a BETTER way to do it, like cutting out actual wasteful spending first?  :

*quickie rant*

I agree... I am sick of my tax dollars being spent on politician's fancy houses and cars.  Sure, you can look professional, and have a nice house, but do you REALLY need $150,000 a year to do it?  I know lawyers who make less than a third of what politicians make, and they live comfortably enough...

(That said, the lawyers I'm referring to are based mainly in Legal Aid or working smaller stuff, like real estate law.  I actually worked for a lawyer who, after paying the Bar dues and income taxes, took home less money that I did, and he was still able to live comfortably, albeit a heck of a lot more frugally than I was living...)

*end of rant*

 

[Sub_Guy]

SUBJ: DELINKING OF RATIONS AND QUARTERS

CANAIRGEN 01/13

REFS: A. CANAIRGEN 012/09 CAS 17/09
B. CANAIRGEN CAS 027/09
C. DAOD 3012-1
D. CFTDTI 1 JANUARY 2012 
SUBJECT: DELINKING OF RATIONS AND QUARTERS
 
1.  IN OCT 12, CHIEF OF THE AIR FORCE STAFF INDICATED HIS INTENT TO
DELINK RATIONS AND QUARTERS (R AND Q) IN THE ROYAL CANADIAN AIR
FORCE (RCAF).  SUBSEQUENTLY, THE CDS PROVIDED DIRECTION TO DELINK R
AND Q ACROSS THE CF EFF 26 OCT 12 AND ORDERED A SYSTEMIC REVIEW OF
RQ POLICIES BY FALL 13. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE REF A MANDATE FOR
LINKING OF R AND Q FOR QUOTE LIVING IN UNQUOTE PERSONNEL IS
RESCINDED.  LIVING IN PERS WILL BE PROVIDED THE OPTION TO REMAIN ON
RATION STRENGTH AND PAY FOR FULL RATIONS (TWENTY ONE MEALS PER WEEK)
OR PAY FOR PARTIAL RATIONS (TEN MEALS PER WEEK) PER REF B. LIVING IN
MEMBERS WHO ELECT TO FULLY DELINK WILL RETAIN THE OPTION FOR POINT
OF SALE (PAY AS YOU GO) MEAL PURCHASES IAW REF C HOWEVER SUBJECT TO
AVAILABILITY (SURPLUS CAPACITY)

2. PER REF D, USE OF QUARTERS FOR PERS ON TRAVEL OR ATTACHED POSTING
SHALL CONTINUE TO BE MAXIMIZED AND RATIONS WILL REMAIN LINKED WHEN
UTILIZING MILITARY ACCOMMODATIONS FOR THIS PURPOSE.  FURTHERMORE,
WCOMDS SHALL MAINTAIN LINKING OF R AND Q FOR TRAINING AND/OR
OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENTS OR WHEN EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES PREVAIL
THAT MAKE DELINKING IMPRACTICABLE

3.  DELINKING IS NOT TO BE PERCEIVED AS BLANKET AUTHORITY FOR LIVING
IN PERS TO COMMENCE FOOD/MEAL PREPARATION WHILE OCCUPYING SQ. THE
FOCUS ON SAFETY AND HYGIENE IN THE QUARTERS AND HEALTHY EATING
HABITS REMAINS PARAMOUNT. WCOMDS ARE TO DETERMINE, IN CONSULTATION
WITH CE AND PMED, IF AND TO WHAT EXTENT PREPARATION AND STORAGE OF

FOOD IN SPECIALLY DESIGNATED AREAS OF QUARTERS CAN BE AUTHORIZED AND
PUBLISH LOCAL ORDERS TO THAT EFFECT

4.  ALL LIVING IN PERSONNEL ARE TO BE ADVISED THAT THEY SHALL NOT
PREPARE FOOD OR COOK MEALS IN THEIR ROOMS OR SQ COMMON AREAS WITHOUT
PRIOR AUTHORITY AND FULL COMPLIANCE OF LOCAL REGULATIONS. WING
AUTHORITIES ARE TO ULTIMATELY ENSURE THAT HIGH STANDARDS OF SAFETY
AND HYGIENE IN THE QUARTERS ARE ENFORCED AT ALL TIMES

5.  FOR THE INTERIM, ONLY EXISTING PURPOSE BUILT INFRASTRUCTURE AND
PRE EXISTING, AND APPROPRIATELY CERTIFIED, APPLIANCES SHALL BE USED
TO SP LOCAL REQUIREMENTS.  WCOMDS ARE TO CONSIDER OPPORTUNITIES TO
MODIFY, RETROFIT OR REPLACE SINGLE QUARTERS TO PERMIT THE STORAGE OR
PREPARATION OF FOOD OR MEALS

6.  FOR RCAF PERS SERVING ON BASES UNDER DIFFERENT CUSTODIAL L1 S,
IT IS ANTICIPATED THAT DIRECTION WILL BE ISSUED IN THE NEAR FUTURE. 
CMP WILL LEAD THE DEVELOPMENT OF A NEW POLICY REGARDING THE LINKAGE
OF R AND Q CF WIDE WITH THE OBJECTIVE OF IDENTIFYING THE GAPS AND
DEFICIENCIES IN CURRENT POLICY AND ADDRESSING ISSUES INCLUDING, BUT
NOT LIMITED TO, EXCEPTIONS TO DELINKING, CRITERIA FOR AND EXTENT OF
MEAL PREPARATION IN QUARTERS AND AFFORDABILITY OF RATIONS IN DINING
FACILITIES

7. THE RCAF WILL REMAIN WELL REPRESENTED IN THESE DISCUSSIONS AND
FURTHER INFORMATION ON THIS WILL BE DISSEMINATED AS IT BECOMES
AVAILABLE

 

[Occam]

That is certainly NOT the case.  THere is a CANAIRGEN of recent release authorizing the de-linking of R & Q and the specifics that go along with the ability to do this.  It was late 2012/early 2013.

DWAN link - http://airforce.mil.ca/canairgens/2013/141649ZJAN13_e.htm

 

[TCM621]

As DOLPHIN_Hunter posted above, pers at training est are not allowed to de-link. The crazy thing is that the Air Force probably has the highest number of re-musters in the training system. So you have a tar load of guys who have 5,10, 15 years + in the CF getting screwed. Now guys are going to tell the CF to pound sand when they give them a posting message for a course that starts in less then a month. That is what happened to me and I know there are a lot of people in my situation. I also just talked to a guy who arrived from CFLRS on Sunday and he had no idea he had to pay rations until I started ranting about it yesterday. I guess because everyone was sure that they wouldn't fuck over people like that, they just stopped telling recruits about it.

You got to love the concept that if you join the CF and you have a family, you are expected to survive on 2200 gross a month. After taxes that is about 18500 a year. With a family of 4 that puts you under the poverty line by about 5 grand (if you live in butt fuck Manitoba). Welcome back to the early 90s.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

You got to love the concept that if you join the CF and you have a family, you are expected to survive on 2200 gross a month. After taxes that is about 18500 a year. With a family of 4 that puts you under the poverty line by about 5 grand (if you live in butt fuck Manitoba). Welcome back to the early 90s.

I'll bite.

How about if you gross 2200 a month, you make the reasonable decision not to live in a single income family, and not to have two children. 

No one forces you to marry and procreate, least of all the CF.

Welcome to taking responsibility for one's own decisions.

 

[Infanteer]

Pte 1 is an entry level position; after that, all ranks of the CF are remunerated quite handsomely.  Even the first level of Private still possesses very competitive benefits.  You won't convince me that any CF member is in the poor house due to poor pay and benefits, because it is simply not true.

 

[JorgSlice]

I'll bite.

How about if you gross 2200 a month, you make the reasonable decision not to live in a single income family, and not to have two children. 

No one forces you to marry and procreate, least of all the CF.

Welcome to taking responsibility for one's own decisions.

Ahh... gone are the days of budgeting and living within your means, aren't they? 

 

[TCM621]

I'll bite.

How about if you gross 2200 a month, you make the reasonable decision not to live in a single income family, and not to have two children. 

No one forces you to marry and procreate, least of all the CF.

Welcome to taking responsibility for one's own decisions.

In this case,, he already had the kids and his wife got downsized.  I am just surprised that a CF member can be below the poverty line. I thought those days were gone.

 

[newwifey]

Ahhh yes, but don't forget the "other" incomes that help alleviate that poverty level.  Child Tax benefit, the working supplement and so on.

Sure it's tough, but it's do-able.  And you find out fast real needs vs wants.  There is a big difference.

**and call me crazy, but is this not a discussion you have with your spouse before taking this big leap and loss of income??  One has to assume you prepare a little for it??

 

[dapaterson]

Odd.  When I look at the pay scale, a Pte starts at $2751 per month, gross - 25% more than suggested in the earlier post.  That's over $33K per year (again, gross).

Monthly rate increases by $612 the next year, and $676 the following year.  So, with two years in the military, monthly pay will be $4039; that's over $48K per year, gross, for a private.


http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/pr-sol/rfncmr-mrfr-eng.asp

 

[Good2Golf]

2. PER REF D, USE OF QUARTERS FOR PERS ON TRAVEL OR ATTACHED POSTING
SHALL CONTINUE TO BE MAXIMIZED AND RATIONS WILL REMAIN LINKED WHEN
UTILIZING MILITARY ACCOMMODATIONS FOR THIS PURPOSE.  FURTHERMORE,
WCOMDS SHALL MAINTAIN LINKING OF R AND Q FOR TRAINING AND/OR
OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENTS OR WHEN EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES PREVAIL
THAT MAKE DELINKING IMPRACTICABLE

Not delinking R&Q during course while on TD or Att Post is not the same as delinking for living-in members (either living-in by choice, or on IR).

The CANAIRGEN Para 2. uses ongoing linking to actually provide R&Q to members on course, hence why the January rush to post trainees on the BTL to their (post-course) gaining unit, then immediately att post them back to the school.  That way, the CF (RCAF) is responsible for providing R&Q for those pers undergoing initial trade training.  I know this to be true for one particular unit and I am assuming (dangerous, I know) that other RCAF units' personnel are being treated simliarly.  If not, the personnel who were recently posted to their gaining unit then attach posted back onto the basic training list should engage with their CoC back at their home unit to clarify their specific situation.

Regards
G2G

 

[McG]

TD and attached postings are both covered under CFTDTI.
All pers attached posted to a trg establishment should (if that establishment is not geo-located with the home unit) be getting full TD benefits.

 

[TCM621]

Odd.  When I look at the pay scale, a Pte starts at $2751 per month, gross - 25% more than suggested in the earlier post.  That's over $33K per year (again, gross).

Monthly rate increases by $612 the next year, and $676 the following year.  So, with two years in the military, monthly pay will be $4039; that's over $48K per year, gross, for a private.


http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/pr-sol/rfncmr-mrfr-eng.asp

2200 is after rations, which is the topic at hand. I apologize if that wasn't clear. The people this is going to hurt the most are the new privates in training. They are not all 18 year old single dudes anymore. Alot of them have families now.

 

[Good2Golf]

2200 is after rations, which is the topic at hand...

That's net, not gross.

 

[MJP]

Alot of them have families now.

Which several people have pointed out are choices that they have made.  The CF shouldn't be responsible for poor life planning on the part of others. 

 

[GAP]

There are few private jobs that start at a reasonably adequate wage and progress as rapidly as the CF does so that within approx 3 to 4 years they are making around $20,000 more than when they started.....and this is with full benefits from day 1.

Not that bad of a deal.


edit to add: comment based on not being a thud....

 

[Quellefille]

Which several people have pointed out are choices that they have made.  The CF shouldn't be responsible for poor life planning on the part of others.

How about CF members with families who made choices based on the information they were given at the time shouldn't be responsible for the poor planning of the CF.  We made the choice for him to join thinking his rations were all paid for and we would just deal with the stress of separation.  There was never an option to move me and my husband together.  Husband and I put off having children because he was joining.  This whole canforgen was clearly a) poorly planned and b) poorly implemented.

My husband didn't sign up for him to make less with the forces than he did answering phones for a call center on behalf of Molsen beer.

ArmyVern didn't sign up to not only be constantly separated from family by the choice of the forces, but now also having to pay for the privilege.

We're not asking the forces to pay for jet skis, or cruises, or anything out of the ordinary or extravagant.  We're asking them to not make the members pay for the priviledge of eating breakfast after waking up alone and away from families.  Especially those whose choices are do this, or GTFO like MSCs and those on shorter courses on the BTL.


Also, please explain why having a spouse and children is poor planning.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

How about CF members with families who made choices based on the information they were given at the time shouldn't be responsible for the poor planning of the CF.  We made the choice for him to join thinking his rations were all paid for and we would just deal with the stress of separation.  There was never an option to move me and my husband together.  Husband and I put off having children because he was joining.  This whole canforgen was clearly a) poorly planned and b) poorly implemented.

My husband didn't sign up for him to make less with the forces than he did answering phones for a call center on behalf of Molsen beer.

ArmyVern didn't sign up to not only be constantly separated from family by the choice of the forces, but now also having to pay for the privilege.

We're not asking the forces to pay for jet skis, or cruises, or anything out of the ordinary or extravagant.  We're asking them to not make the members pay for the priviledge of eating breakfast after waking up alone and away from families.  Especially those whose choices are do this, or GTFO like MSCs and those on shorter courses on the BTL.


Also, please explain why having a spouse and children is poor planning.

Again...remember, the CF was given orders and they can not be ignored, not by the CDS, or any other CF member. 

The CF actually bought its affected members some "time to plan/adjust", as the implementation was held in abeyance from fall 2012 until Feb 2013. 

I know this sucks and every one of us here knows what it is like to be 'starting off' and seperated from family, making the lower end of the pay scale, etc.  We all started off as Recruits or OCdts/NCdts.  Might help if you keep that in mind. 

 

[MJP]

Also, please explain why having a spouse and children is poor planning.

TCM who I was quoting mentioned

They are not all 18 year old single dudes anymore. Alot of them have families now.

Please don't twist my words to fit your arguement.  I never mentioned Married Service Couples.  The poor planning I was talking about was about making a choice to take a job where there was the chance you couldn't support your family.  Then turning around and blaming the organization that hired you for your poor choice. 

Does the rations & quarters thing suck?  Yup
Have we found the 80% solution to allieviate some of the financial pain?  Yup 
Will some people leave because of the changes?  Most likely
Will the CF carry on and follow the rules laid out by the government (remember this was the TB not  the CF as the driving force)?  Yup

 

[td_2013]

My husband is in BMQ right now and was informed 2 days before he left for BMQ that he would be paying rations, and that was him calling to ask about something else then that topic came up... I don't fully disagree with the whole idea that they should charge for meals and what not (if they are going to anyway...) but I think they should have it set up different, and definitely not be $500+ / month for ONE person to eat.... and the lodging he is yes exempt from... but that is like $92/month??? 
No sense in complaining about it at all, but it does suck... especially when he is now at the same scale as the guy coming out of mommy and dads basement.... when we have a mortgage,kids,other responsibilities... we will make it work obviously, it is and will be worth it... but I already know of a lot of people VRing as they cannot afford it.....

Again, not necessarily "whining" or expecting the CF to give special treatment ... but some fair warning would have been nice, even when he got the call with the offer or at their swearing in... Just my opinion