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Making Canada Relevant Again- The Economic Super-Thread

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For the love of Pete you is slow.

Make your point all you like, that is your perogative. IS it too much to ask though for you to keep the sanctimonious holier-than-thou preaching to yourself? Some people don't agree with your point of view and I don't appreciate you demonizing them.

Is that clear enough for you?

 
TCBF said:
" but now that the euro has come into its own, the ground has shifted. central banks are slowly developing a taste for diversified reserve portfolios. it's happening already. the only question is will there be a tipping point to an ugly currency crisis, or an orderly retreat of the dollar."

Watch for Islamic countries gradually leaving the USD and going back to the gold Dinar.

if the islamic countries want to bring their economies closer into line with their bronze-age political systems, then let them fill their boots. since the topic of this thread is societies that are "doomed", these guys are a prime example. they can price their oil in whatever quaint commodity they choose, but the real threat these morons will pose to us is, as ever, the physical damage they can inflict while they continue their inevitable decline.
(sort of like the old ussr)
 
Compounding the problem (for us) is the very narrow and brittle political structure we live with. Watching Mr Dithers deal with his self induced problems is bad enough, what would happen in a crisis situation? Feeding misleading data to the PMO, or simply overwhelming it with a flood of data would paralyze the government (as we are seeing with the Gomrey inquiry).

I think anyone who was involved with the Federal Government on 11 Sep 01 knows exactly what their capacity is to lead in an emergency.   It wasn't pretty at all...
 
The old USSR is making an amazing comeback by selling suitcase bombs to the Islamo-fascists.

A 1kt mushroom cloud, coming soon to a city near you?
 
squealiox said:
that equilibrium would continue, too, if the dollar were to remain the only major currency that looks like a benchmark store of value to traders and monetary authorities. forex trading is as much about perceptions as fundamentals, and the dollar's value has increasingly been all out of proportion to the relative size of the us economy. but now that the euro has come into its own, the ground has shifted. central banks are slowly developing a taste for diversified reserve portfolios. it's happening already. the only question is will there be a tipping point to an ugly currency crisis, or an orderly retreat of the dollar.

Won't happen: not in our lifetimes, anyway (barring something catastrophic which rendered the whole system moot).  The EU is in far too much disarray: what we've seen up to this point is wishful thinking, probably driven by naked discrimination (anti-Americanism) as much as anything else.  Simply won't happen.

Then again, if I had a crystal ball I wouldn't be wasting my time here, right?    ;)
 
A weakness is auto parts exports - no need to leverage us - the Auto Makers will do all the damage - ie autos - if that ever goes to China - say bye bye to government programs - and bye bye to the big Canex

Frank Stronach of MAGNA was in the press this week saying that offshoring autoplants and parts is the beginning of a downward trend in the Canadian economic viability

Remember - the more exports of finished goods = more jobs = more tax $ for govt - in our case DND

Some extracts

Does Security Trump Trade?

The lack of a clear policy link for DND and Foreign Affairs (see Bland)[vii] means that an under equipped military, always hungry for sustainment funding just to keep the minimum of capabilities operational â “ could impact Canadians economically, but it would seem illogical as action against us would impact directly into 38 US states. Commentators today routinely forget that and concentrate on the need to improve our military capabilities to the exclusion of the economic link. A lively cottage industry has grown up saying we must do this or that in the strongest possible manner or there will be consequences are found today in many different media outlets. Notable sources are the CCS 21 website[viii] or that of the Conference of Defence Associations.[ix]. The failure of many of these well known commentators to integrate economics and pan-government policy, stopping where money stops rather than where money is generated in the economy seriously clouds considerations of issues of defence. 

Government revenue depends on the Canadian economy. The Conference Board of Canada suggests that there are several activities present that conspire against a greater Canadian presence in the world. One is our reliance on commodities[x] vs. home grown advanced production technologies (borne out in the note by David Crane about the Auto Industry), our record of deficit financing which is not yet far enough in the past to encourage foreign investment in Canada[xi], political uncertainty in Canada[xii] and a reliance on trade with the USA, which, they note, even though there is a Free Trade agreement, not all trade is free.[xiii] This includes disadvantageous high taxation and lower rates of innovation, i.e.: new things that Canadians ship to the world. These factors lead the Conference Board to suggest no real increase in government revenues for the next seven years.[xiv] The indirect deduction is no new programme funding in general for the government. The reduction of money coming into the government is countered by increased need for maintenance of older infrastructure and equipment for the forces. These reduce the means and the governmental freedom to commit assets externally in a timely manner.[xv]  The result is DND and External Affairs being progressively enmeshed in a vicious cycle that only real leadership can change. Continuation of the status quo â “ inside and outside DND will mean greater risk of something going wrong and leading to a loss of domestic and international prestige for the government. Our productivity is rated as 30% less than USA. With no clear definition of how to improve this - other than as I see it - an increase in an educated workforce, which will demand more innovation[xvi] John McCallum - when he was Chief Economist of the Royal Bank - suggests when you take out the heavy industry output of the USA our productivity is not that bad, yet he faces severe criticism with this approach. [xvii]  We need leadership from investment bankers rather than banking economists.

Read the whole story here - Just my ideas how Canadian Govt has backed us out of world affairs - or - we never got a critical mass going after WW2 - http://www.donlowconcrete.com/USA/

I get the impression that we need to hire Margaret Thatcher to come over here and clean out the rot.

Freebies for all sorts of economic deadenders is a prescription for less influence in the world.

But thats just my opinion -
 
Well, I can't speak for the Canadian economy, but my Company (in Arizona) is a Tier 2 automotive supplier. We are a metal stamping company. The automakers and Tier 1 suppliers are basically forcing many Tier 2 suppliers to go (source) overseas. We are having dies made in the Far East.  Our customers pressure us to do this. If we insisted on only using dies made in the US, we would simply not be able to bid competitively. Dies made in say, Korea or China are built faster, cheaper, and meet the same die standards as US ones.

To me, once companies start down that road, they are simply delaying the inevitable..
 
muskrat89 said:
... Dies made in say, Korea or China are built faster, cheaper, and meet the same die standards as US ones.

To me, once companies start down that road, they are simply delaying the inevitable..

Are you suggesting that your American and Canadian customers should be required to buy dies which are made more slowly and at higher cost?
 
No Sir, not at all.  I am just pointing out that if we are buying the tooling there, it will probably only be a matter of time before our customer can buy the stampings there, based on the same economic principles.  There are also some underlying nuances of the automotive industry that were directing my thinking, but I didn't really feel comfortable discussing in the open forum - resulting in a post where I knew what I wanted to convey, but didn't do it very well.

I guess, I was more referring to this statement:
A weakness is auto parts exports - no need to leverage us - the Auto Makers will do all the damage - ie autos - if that ever goes to China

and was pointing out that many spinoffs of the auto industry are already going to China, unbeknownst to most consumers. Sorry for the jumbled posts..
 
Andyboy said:
Some people don't agree with your point of view and I don't appreciate you demonizing them.

I agree. But I think your comment should be more wide spread. I come up with my "opinions" because of the fact that all I see here is the demonizing of the terms "Liberal" and "Social", and so on. So it hardly me demonizing anyone who is not doing the same to others. We all have differing opinions and it is great that we can debate them here. Is that a bad thing? Or would you rather we all just agreed and b*tched about the same thing?

Squeal - I'm surprised you made that statement after your previous posts? Even if the Islamic nations "filled their boots", just that act alone would seriously harm the US economy. And I would argue that the Islamic nations are not in decline, although their are strong elements within them that wish exactly that. They are as much at war within their own society idealogically as they are with the "west".

And I will disagree with you Gault (big shock there eh?) in that I think the "potential" for a fall of the US market is very real right now. How it will pan out or as you say through your "crystal ball" is still anyones guess. If it is through the Euro or some other currency (China?) is hard to tell right now. People do not want to abandon their money making potential in the US, so I think it will take the US going further into the hole to really start foreign investors thinking about alternatives.

Who knows.
 
Zipper said:
I agree. But I think your comment should be more wide spread. I come up with my "opinions" because of the fact that all I see here is the demonizing of the terms "Liberal" and "Social", and so on. So it hardly me demonizing anyone who is not doing the same to others. We all have differing opinions and it is great that we can debate them here. Is that a bad thing? Or would you rather we all just agreed and b*tched about the same thing?

Blaming other people for your inability to make a point is a cop out. If your point can't stand on it's own merits without resorting to insults, it may be time to reconsider your position. 
 
Here is Sherry Cooper`s Website http://sherrycooper.com/

In addition to being very easy on the eyes - she`s very brainy economic wise and has a lot of whats up with the Cdn economy on her site.
 
put these words into a goodle search

sherry cooper "foreign direct investment"

And there is tons of stuff for your research --- watch out for hollowing out the economy --- which maywell be the economic leverage referred to earlier


 
Zipper said:
I agree. But I think your comment should be more wide spread. I come up with my "opinions" because of the fact that all I see here is the demonizing of the terms "Liberal" and "Social", and so on. So it hardly me demonizing anyone who is not doing the same to others.

Eh, not quite.  Nobody is "demonizing" the words "Liberal" or "Social".  First of all, you can't demonize a word, only an individual or a group, but that's besides the point.  We were discussing why communism and socialism are inherently flawed.  You on the other hand are sitting there implying that we're cheap, heartless bastards.  There's a big difference.  One is a logical debate about a concept, the other is an attack on the character of an individual.  I'm sure you see the difference.

Not to say that that's ALL you've done.  Certainly you have made some valid points and a few arguments that I'm sure, from your viewpoint, seem logical.  Just try to avoid making remarks, implied or otherwise, about the individual instead of their views.
 
I_am_John_Galt said:
Won't happen: not in our lifetimes, anyway (barring something catastrophic which rendered the whole system moot).   The EU is in far too much disarray: what we've seen up to this point is wishful thinking, probably driven by naked discrimination (anti-Americanism) as much as anything else.   Simply won't happen.

Then again, if I had a crystal ball I wouldn't be wasting my time here, right?     ;)

the world's currency markets are driven by ideology? that's a new one on me ...
 
I'd argue Canada is very complicated, yet a few threats stand out:

1 - Canada has not yet had its two founding European groups acknowledged as the priority in Canada, leading soft Quebec nationalists and English Canadians to fear for the future culturally. Multiculturalism makes the future uncertain for everyone in cities like Toronto and Vancouve, Calgary. Edmonton, Montreal, etc...


2. Canada's business class has made quick fortuned selling out to U.S. and British interests over that last 100 years. This isn't recent.

The problem with living under 2 different empires is it is much easier for Canada's business elite to get rich quickly by selling out, rather than developing our economy over the long term.


In other words, there has never been large amounts of value-added Canadian industry--only foreign-owned industry, with the exception of McGlaughlin, Massey-Harris and Studebaker in the past, and companies like Bombardier today.

Canada has no major defence companies, no Canadian car companies. That is where the money is.

Canada has over 40% foreign ownership, the U.S. has under 10%, Europe, Japan often under 6%.

Canada has over 50% foreign ownership in oil, over 50% in defence and 100% in the auto industry.


It would take long-term thinking, and opting out of "globalization", which would take sustained effort and committment to make Canada a major player with self-respect and no threats to our sovereignty, which NAFTA and and NAFTA+ trading block do threaten.


 
a_majoor said:
Styen should get in another word here:

www.bilderberg.org/2003.htm

Interestingly enough, Mark Steyn was invited by Conrad Black to attend a bilderberg meeting:
Bilderberg conference 2003: Versailles, Paris, France - Thursday 15th to Sunday 18th May

MOD EDIT: This long list has already been posted on the board, removed due to length, is available through the link.
 
daniel h. said:
It would take long-term thinking, and opting out of "globalization", which would take sustained effort and committment

opting out of globalisation sure has done wonders for north korea. ::)
actually, canada's problem is not too much globalisation, it's problem is not enough globalisation -- we are too exposed to one single foreign market (can you guess which one?)
 
The US economy is subject to a lot of speculation, but here are some numbers so you, the reader, can see just what is possible with an "Ownership society" agenda. People can "talk the talk" about dumping bonds or convertintg to Euros and Dinars, but rational investors looking for a safe haven and high rates of return look for this:

Stagflation Nonsense
Inside the latest â Å“lacklusterâ ? GDP report.

Three months ago the first government estimate of gross domestic product for the fourth quarter of 2004 came in at 3.1 percent at an annual rate. At the time, the market consensus expected 3.5 percent growth. Immediately, the mainstream media started talking about an economic slowdown. Turns out, that 3.1 percent was finally revised up to 3.8 percent.

This past week, the Commerce Department reported its initial estimate for first quarter GDP at 3.1 percent. The consensus forecast was 3.5 percent. Immediately, newspaper headlines screamed about a soft-patch and the likelihood of further economic decline. Sound familiar?

Well, history is repeating itself â ” even though, if you look under the GDP hood, you'll find that the country's economic engine is humming along.

Is the media simply interested in a putting out a declinist view of America? Is this just more Bush-hating? Why don't the media pick on Western Europe or Japan, places where economic growth rates are hovering at less than 1 percent. Ours is a healthy, prospering economy.

Headline writers and media pundits notwithstanding, the culprit for the lower-than-consensus GDP was once again higher imports (net of exports), which are really a sign of economic strength. Imports subtracted about 1.5 percent from the first quarter's apparently lackluster GDP number. But stick that back in, and GDP would be 4.6 percent â ” not 3.1 percent.

The trade gap subtracted $663 billion out of an $11.1 trillion GDP. But consumers and businesses are buying heavily because incomes are up and prosperity is growing. All the trade-deficit talk is Alice-in-Wonderland stuff. Don't penalize the strong U.S. economy just because Western Europe and Japan still remain on the edge of recession.

The core U.S. economy â ” subtracting out trade and government spending and keeping in consumer spending and business capital-goods investment â ” actually expanded at a 4.3 percent annual rate in the first quarter compared to a 4.8 percent pace in the fourth quarter and a 5.2 percent rate for the last year.

There has in fact been a temporary slowdown in business capital-goods investment, according to Wall Street economist Michael Darda, owing mostly to the expiration of the corporate tax cash-expensing bonus that Congress has chosen not to extend. They should put this back in the budget, but even without it, business capex will pick up speed in the quarters ahead as companies are flush with cash and profits are at record highs.

Finally, consumer spending and the housing sector were both quite strong in the latest GDP report. Although the media fail to see it â ” or just won't say it â ” America's economic heart is beating strong.

One reason the media keep repeatedly looking for a double-dip recession is that they continue to underestimate the pro-growth impacts of supply-side tax cuts. In the seven quarters following the Bush tax cuts of June 2003, the core private economy increased at a 5.6 percent annual rate. In the seven quarters before the tax cuts, the economy increased at only a 2.7 percent annual rate.

Remember, the tax cuts of 2003 contained strong supply-side incentives to work and invest. The top marginal rate on individual income was lowered to 35 percent from 39.6 percent, meaning that individuals were able to keep 65 cents on every new dollar earned compared to only 60.4 cents under the prior law. That's a 7.6 percent incentive-reward for the extra hour worked.

Even a more powerful incentive boost came from the cut on the tax rate for investor dividends, which plunged to 15 percent from 39.6 percent. That's a 41 percent reward for saving and investing. And let's not forget the capital-gains tax cut that lowered the top rate to 15 percent from 20 percent. That's a 6.25 percent incentive reward for capital formation (i.e., you keep 85 cents instead of 80 cents out of each cap-gain dollar). In total, the incentive effect of these tax cuts was 55 percent. That was huge. For work and investment, Uncle Sam keeps a lot less nowadays, while individuals keep a lot more. Private capital goes up, while the government's take goes down.

Consequently, the private economy has a much stronger growth engine today. Individual quarterly GDP performance may bounce up and down, but the trend line has improved markedly over the past few years.

Parenthetically, the first Bush-sponsored tax cut in 2001 was really a demand-side approach, one that was dominated by temporary tax rebates rather than lower marginal tax rates. It didn't qualify as a supply-side measure and it didn't produce more economic growth. But the Bushies learned their lesson and went supply-side, putting through a tax cut that benefited all â ” including the tax collectors as receipts have gone up.

So, GDP is not a problem. Neither is inflation. Alan Greenspan's favorite inflation measure, the chain-weighted price index for personal consumption spending, increased only 2.2 percent in the first quarter. Excluding energy, it was only 2 percent for the quarter and 1.8 percent over the past year.

Meanwhile, commodity prices are weakening and the air is gradually coming out of the oil bubble. As former Federal Reserve governor Wayne Angell has noted, the recent commodity slump shows that the Fed has done its job well by slowing money supply and raising its target rate. Bond yields remain near 45-year lows, more evidence of quiescent inflation.

If you listen too hard to pessimistic pundits you can get all lathered up over the risks of stagflation â ” slower growth and higher prices. Don't go there. This is most certainly not the 1970s. For young people, this is not your father's economy.

Money is sounder, tax rates are lower, productivity and profits are much higher, and world trade is more open. Today's technology-streamlined and deregulated economy is not inflation-prone. And the Federal Reserve will cease its policy-tightening moves sooner than most folks expect.

So long as the Bush administration and Congress control federal spending, keep tax rates low, and avoid the growth-slowing pitfalls of trade protectionism, non-inflationary prosperity can continue for years to come. Economic policies matter, and right now they are pro-growth.

And so long as the Bush Republicans nuke the filibuster-happy Democrats, the president's pro-growth reform agenda â ” of more investor-class ownership and greater tax-freedom to save â ” will expand the economy's potential to grow even more in the years ahead.

â ” Larry Kudlow, NRO's Economics Editor, is host of CNBC's Kudlow & Company and author of the daily web blog, Kudlow's Money Politic$.

http://www.nationalreview.com/kudlow/kudlow200504291526.asp
 
GO!!! said:
a_majoor - I'm serious, can you please provide an example of economic leveraging being used to seriously harm Canada as a nation? The concept is interesting.

I should know better than to raise a point before going away for the weekend.....

The best "quick example" I can think of is the Banking system. Canada's banking system is concentrated with the "Big Five", who have been jockeying around to do a series of mergers to become the even bigger Four or Three. Leveraging against these banks can be done through manipulation of the currency or bond markets, George Soros made his billions by doing exactly that against the British Pound, wiping out the savings of millions of British pensioners in the process (talk about collateral damage). Since the banks are the source of funding and credit for most small business, finding ways to target a segment of business to make them less attractive to the banks might be a "bottom up" attack. If loans are called and business is forced into receivership, business in the same sector becomes more stressed and vulnerable. A cascading series of closures and bankruptcies could ensue. (BTW, there was a CISIS investigation of foreign influence on Canada's banking and political system called "Sidewinder" some years ago. http://www.telusplanet.net/public/mozuz/crime/lemieszewski20001102.html Articles 10,11 and 12 for some details, and http://www.canadafreepress.com/2005/cover012605.htm)

This may not seem like much, except that the underpinning of much "big" business is the sub-contracting to small business. A major sector like auto or energy might become disrupted because of a shortage of some supply or tool. If a particularly clever or ruthless operator was involved, they could then direct another "attack" against other sectors of the economy, creating a whipsaw effect and certainly overwhelming attempts by the government to intervene.

The best meta example I can think of is the Internet. It seems to be the ultimate in dispersion, yet "scale free" networks are vulnerable to certain types of attacks. IF you could discern the "geography" of the Internet, you would discover high traffic nodes or key sites like the DNS servers which, if taken down, would disrupt the Internet. Canada's high concentration of media, banking and financial services in Toronto certainly makes it an attractive target, particularly since these are the engines of the so called "knowledge" economy.

 
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