Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad

[Loachman]

It seems traditional in those waters, for destroyers. I recall viewing the Georg Thiele in Narvik harbour, which has an interesting history:

I was flying around Bardufoss and Narvik a lot in Feb/Mar and Oct/Nov 1983. I wasn't able to get close to Georg Thiele, only seeing it from some distance, but I did hover over Hermann Kuhne on the north shore of Ofotfjorden quite frequently (https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Trollvik/@68.5237198,17.4147182,1048m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x45db964ddf7da597:0xe73caa91a1a9f83a!8m2!3d68.5237204!4d17.4234729, if I remember correctly thirty-five years later). There are about thirty merchant ships on the bottom of Ofotfjorden as well. I was able to make a few out when the tide was low, wind was dead calm, and the sun was bright.

We also flew around the site of the Tirpitz sinking - the water is crystal clear and one could see the Tallboy craters on the sea floor, plus one that's partially submerged when the tide's out, and one completely on shore. If I've got it right, the marker at https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Tirpitz-platen/@69.6475594,18.8028456,255m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m8!1m2!2m1!1sTirpitz,+Norway!3m4!1s0x0:0x82bfedbfab3e50eb!8m2!3d69.647536!4d18.8031006 should be over the one on shore.

And I landed on one of the Adolfkanone at Trondenes https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Adolfkanone/@68.8345448,16.5821985,258m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x45dc7dc16488b153:0xffc1310bd640c1ab!8m2!3d68.8345448!4d16.5843873 a couple of times.

Great place to be a Loachman...

 

[daftandbarmy]

I was flying around Bardufoss and Narvik a lot in Feb/Mar and Oct/Nov 1983. I wasn't able to get close to Georg Thiele, only seeing it from some distance, but I did hover over Hermann Kuhne on the north shore of Ofotfjorden quite frequently (https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Trollvik/@68.5237198,17.4147182,1048m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x45db964ddf7da597:0xe73caa91a1a9f83a!8m2!3d68.5237204!4d17.4234729, if I remember correctly thirty-five years later). There are about thirty merchant ships on the bottom of Ofotfjorden as well. I was able to make a few out when the tide was low, wind was dead calm, and the sun was bright.

We also flew around the site of the Tirpitz sinking - the water is crystal clear and one could see the Tallboy craters on the sea floor, plus one that's partially submerged when the tide's out, and one completely on shore. If I've got it right, the marker at https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Tirpitz-platen/@69.6475594,18.8028456,255m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m8!1m2!2m1!1sTirpitz,+Norway!3m4!1s0x0:0x82bfedbfab3e50eb!8m2!3d69.647536!4d18.8031006 should be over the one on shore.

And I landed on one of the Adolfkanone at Trondenes https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Adolfkanone/@68.8345448,16.5821985,258m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x45dc7dc16488b153:0xffc1310bd640c1ab!8m2!3d68.8345448!4d16.5843873 a couple of times.

Great place to be a Loachman...

It's a humbling experience for any keen Naval rating

 

[brihard]

Man, that ship looks like she's toast. Anyone here got any insight on what salvage/recovery/refit would look like for something like this? I assume the probably near total ingress of salt water will necessitate a pretty thorough gutting of systems?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Likely they raise her, and gut her for any salvageable spare parts and scrap the rest. The Electronics are toast, which is a shame, as had they been able to keep her upright and mostly dry, they could have salvage all of that. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Listening to this, the Frigate bridge crew appears to have no grasp of the traffic around them, no plan to deal with it and then confusion about what hit them and where they are. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYqGxbKF0AI

 

[Stoker]

Man, that ship looks like she's toast. Anyone here got any insight on what salvage/recovery/refit would look like for something like this? I assume the probably near total ingress of salt water will necessitate a pretty thorough gutting of systems?

I wouldn't say there's much salvageable, any salvage effort will now be complicated by the weather. I would say it will be weeks to get her up. Every piece of equipment, wiring, insulation is now compromised by SW. I would be very surprised if they can save anything.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Does the path of the freighter indicate normal activity? I would have thought a freighter would just go directly between two ports. Is there a reason they just went around in circles?

 

[Retired AF Guy]

I wouldn't say there's much salvageable, any salvage effort will now be complicated by the weather. I would say it will be weeks to get her up. Every piece of equipment, wiring, insulation is now compromised by SW. I would be very surprised if they can save anything.

I read on one report that she also had a full load of munitions onboard which, according to Wikipedia includes 32 RIM-162 ESSM, 8 x Naval Strike SSM, unk number of String Ray torpedoes, unk number of depth charges, ammo of 76mm Oto Melara cannon and 4 x remote weapon systems, plus ships and aviation fuel.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I read on one report that she also had a full load of munitions onboard which, according to Wikipedia includes 32 RIM-162 ESSM, 8 x Naval Strike SSM, unk number of String Ray torpedoes, unk number of depth charges, ammo of 76mm Oto Melara cannon and 4 x remote weapon systems, plus ships and aviation fuel.

Just enough to destroy the career of one ship's Captain then?

 

[Underway]

We had a Norwegian watchkeep aboard an MCDV once.  All he cared about was if the contact was drawing left or right.  It seemed like no concern about anything else in contact avoidance.  No reports to the CO.  Wondered why we had so many people on the bridge (helm, POOW, 2OOW, OOW, lookout), not including the MCR watchkeeper.  On a frigate there are even more ppl, add a throttle, Navcom, and sometimes a second lookout and 3OOW. 

Just part of the true Canadian naval doctrine I guess.  Maximize warfighting while minimize risk.  Those may be inverted in priority at times.

 

[dimsum]

We had a Norwegian watchkeep aboard an MCDV once.  All he cared about was if the contact was drawing left or right.  It seemed like no concern about anything else in contact avoidance.  No reports to the CO.  Wondered why we had so many people on the bridge (helm, POOW, 2OOW, OOW, lookout), not including the MCR watchkeeper.  On a frigate there are even more ppl, add a throttle, Navcom, and sometimes a second lookout and 3OOW. 

Just part of the true Canadian naval doctrine I guess.  Maximize warfighting while minimize risk.  Those may be inverted in priority at times.

Was he normally posted on one of the Skjold-class boats?  If so, I can understand since they go so quickly that by the time the report goes out, the situation would have resolved itself.

 

[Underway]

Was he normally posted on one of the Skjold-class boats?  If so, I can understand since they go so quickly that by the time the report goes out, the situation would have resolved itself.

Yes, and that's exactly what he told us.  It's not like we don't do the same thing sometimes, "Sir see that speedboat? *points to speedboat*  Drawing left, safe." may be all you can get out before wheel over or another contact needs reporting...

The difference mainly was their reporting.  The bridge watchkeeper is expected to not bother reporting things to the CO most of the time, as if you are qualified you are supposed to be competent.  If you are reporting contacts the CO will start questioning your competence...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Same in the CCG, Capt has standing orders of how to react, normally the Mate on duty works within whatever those orders are without bugging the Captain. the mate may call the Captain up if things are going squirrelly, although good Captains often sense that beforehand and show up on the bridge just prior to being called.   

On another forum, I have heard that the watch changed minutes before the collision, which might explain the lack of awareness.

As to the Salvage ops,  criticisms are coming out already, someone noted that the cables where secured incorrectly with the bulldog clamps.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=no&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.aldrimer.no%2Fsjoforsvaret-ville-spare-penger-pa-bergingen%2F

 

[Good2Golf]

In addition to radar and AIS (even though NATO 313 wasn't TX'ing until post-crash), don't modern FFGs and other similar class warships have some decent IRST capabilities, so the bridge crew would have some solid visual cues to assist their SA, especially in tight confines at night?

Regards
G2G

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Radar, radio, windows, binoculars, home waters so you know there is an active oil terminal with ships calling that they are outbound from said terminal......

If there was a watch change and traffic was within a near CPA, the off going OOW should have stayed till he was satisfied that the new OOW had proper situational awareness, no matter how much you long for some food and the bunk.

 

[Good2Golf]

Radar, radio, windows, binoculars, home waters so you know there is an active oil terminal with ships calling that they are outbound from said terminal......

If there was a watch change and traffic was within a near CPA, the off going OOW should have stayed till he was satisfied that the new OOW had proper situational awareness, no matter how much you long for some food and the bunk.

Particularly 0.0nm CPA. :nod:

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Just some questions regarding terminology. Some I get: OOW - Officer of the Watch, but whats a POOW, 2OOW, MCR watchkeeper, or 3OOW.  CPA - Closet Point of Approach?

 

[dimsum]

Just some questions regarding terminology. Some I get: OOW - Officer of the Watch, but whats a POOW, 2OOW, MCR watchkeeper, or 3OOW.  CPA - Closet Point of Approach?

POOW:  Petty Officer of the Watch
2/3OOW:  2nd and 3rd Officer of the Watch
MCR:  Machinery Control Room
CPA:  Closest Point of Approach

 

[Retired AF Guy]

POOW:  Petty Officer of the Watch
2/3OOW:  2nd and 3rd Officer of the Watch
MCR:  Machinery Control Room
CPA:  Closest Point of Approach

Thank You. Any day I learn something new is a bonus.

 

[Lumber]

.

If there was a watch change and traffic was within a near CPA, the off going OOW should have stayed till he was satisfied that the new OOW had proper situational awareness, no matter how much you long for some food and the bunk.

Generally speaking, a component OOW wouldn't take the watch in they middle of a complex situation. The guys who's on watch has watched the situation develop and has a better fix on it. It can be dangerous to try and force a turnover.

One time in the Persian gulf, my relief showed up to the bridge as I was manoeuvring to avoid a dumb cargo ship while trying to stay out of Iranian TTW. As soon as I avoided that ship, another ship got in our way, and another one after that. The oncoming OOW just stood quietly at the back of the bridge watching and listening for probably 20 mins past when we're supposed to have turned over, but I could not catch a break to turn over the watch to him. Eventually he was there watching long enough that he didn't need a formal turnover, he was as aware of the situation as I das getting watching for 30 mins. So despite being in the middle of a bunch of crap, he just came up to me and said "alright I got this". We high fived and I left the bridge without doing the formal turnover.