Long-term expats don't have right to vote in federal elections, court rules

[Infanteer]

The vote is strictly linked to citizenship. Period. The '93 law also allowed federal judges the vote, and I would regard the "visit reset" built into that as intentional, not a "loophole."

The "passports of convenience" in the ME and elsewhere don't vote, even though they could (up 'till now).

The Elections Canada site has an interesting history of the franchise since Confederation. It strikes me as instructive that it has been more-or-less a constant increase in voting rights up to now. Let's not take a step back.

Consider that in over 1 million expats maybe 6k vote. Those are the ones that want to be Canadian, and remain Canadian (and some have the CF/foreign service exemption) and now we deny that to them?

cupper's post illustrates the real issue - some move away and disengage. Some do not. That's their choice as much as it's the choice of any citizen residing in Canada to stay at home on Election Day.

If an expat wants to jump through the absentee ballot hoops (as I am doing at the moment) required, I would consider that person as "emgaged" and quite likely fully intending to return to Canada, regardless of the amount of time out. That should be the only thing required.

+1 to this.

It's the 21st century.  Welcome to the globalized world.  I am more than happy to have an engaged citizen of Canada who has an interest in exercising the soveriegn franchise as opposed to the mass in Canada who can't be bothered to go down and vote.

 

[The Bread Guy]

If I have spend the last 5,10,15 or 20 years living outside of Canada what right do I have to make decisions that affect people in Canada directly while they have little to no effect on me? 

On that, one of the judges had this to say:  "Permitting all non-resident citizens to vote would allow them to participate in making laws that affect Canadian residents on a daily basis, but have little to no practical consequence for their own daily lives. This would erode the social contract and undermine the legitimacy of the laws. The legislation is aimed at strengthening Canada’s system of government and is demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society." 
Isn't that also a defence for, say, letting permanent residents (used to be known as landed immigrants) living here vote? 

I am more than happy to have an engaged citizen of Canada who has an interest in exercising the soveriegn franchise as opposed to the mass in Canada who can't be bothered to go down and vote.

Zackly!

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

So, here's an example for you.  The last Quebec referendum.

My cousin, from Quebec City, was working and living in San Diego at the time.  Prior to moving there he was a staunch separatist.  Like many with that belief, not long after leaving the province and discovering what the rest of the world was like, his views changed and, come the referendum, he wanted to vote.

The Quebec government, knowing that this was the case with many expats, tried everything in their power to keep Quebec expats from voting (ask any military member whose riding is in Quebec how hard it was to vote).  Rules were changed several times and many at the last minute.  But my cousin was determined to vote and jumped on a plane to Quebec to be able to mark his ballot.

By eliminating the ability of expats to vote we are possibly changing the outcome of any major event.  Look at what happened in Ireland and how many expats returned to their country to vote on gay marriage.  We can say that we would never have a situation where the votes of expats are THAT important, but no one has a crystla ball.  And not everyone can afford to fly back home to cast a ballot.

I have another cousin who has been living in Japan for 15+yrs now and still actively participates in the voting process.  Japan doesn't have a dual citizenship option and, rather than losing his status as a Canadian to become a voting member of society there (which would be quite easy given his spouse and two children are Japanese) he remains Canadian, because he loves his country that much.

So, ask yourselves, what is the real harm in allowing expats to vote?  Ask it again, this time NOT allowing them to vote, and consider the referendum when you think about that.  There are over a million expats and let's guess a conservative 10% of them are from Quebec.  How much more of a difference between the YES and NO votes do you think there would have been if voting for Quebec expats had been easier?

You're also eliminating some of your most successful folk.  International businessmen and women, sports stars, great industrialists, famous people.  All of whom are every bit as Canadian as you or I. 

I have a very close friend who has a Phd from Oxford, worked as a Post-Doctoral fellow for the NIH in DC and just started her own NGO.  Technically, she is not allowed to vote now because of this.  Just the sort of successful people we want to eliminate from the political process. :facepalm:

 

[SupersonicMax]

The real issue is not about letting Canadian citizens vote.  It's about who we let become Canadian.

 

[Remius]

This may be far fetched but if the courts are claiming that Canadian Citizens that have been living outside of Canada for over 5 years have no more social contract and can't vote could the same be said for anything else (including legal obligations to Canada?).  I could see someone using this argument to try and avoid extradition or paying taxes or whatever or even avoid prosecution by Canada.

 

[dapaterson]

The real issue is not about letting Canadian citizens vote.  It's about who we let become Canadian.

Silly First Nations folks, letting those French and Brits stay and ruin everything.

 

[cupper]

The real issue is not about letting Canadian citizens vote.  It's about who we let become Canadian.

Sorry Max. It's clear cut that this is about whether Canadian Citizens are allowed to exercise a right given to them under the Canadian Constitution. Whether they choose to exercise that right is up to them.

It has nothing to do with who becomes a Canadian and who doesn't. Unless you have Canadian Citizenship, you don't get to vote.

Let's not conflate the issue with a debate on immigration.

These are people who hold Canadian Citizenship. For reasons of their own, they relocated outside the country, either by choice or necessity. They are not immigrants / refugees / visitors who are looking to obtain citizenship.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Silly First Nations folks, letting those French and Brits stay and ruin everything.

As the hard-right in Italy says, "They couldn't control immigration - now they live on reserves."  ;D

 

[SupersonicMax]

Silly First Nations folks, letting those French and Brits stay and ruin everything.

Perhaps it was relevant 300 years ago.  Not so much anymore. 

Sorry Max. It's clear cut that this is about whether Canadian Citizens are allowed to exercise a right given to them under the Canadian Constitution. Whether they choose to exercise that right is up to them.

It has nothing to do with who becomes a Canadian and who doesn't. Unless you have Canadian Citizenship, you don't get to vote.

Precisely my point.  If we did a better job at weeding out "Canadians of convenience", I doubt this issue would even exist.  I agree, every Canadian citizen should have the right to vote (and it is supported by the Charter).

Let's not conflate the issue with a debate on immigration.

Not only should this debate include immigration but also emigration.  The issue of voting is linked to Citizenship which inherently involved both.

These are people who hold Canadian Citizenship. For reasons of their own, they relocated outside the country, either by choice or necessity. They are not immigrants / refugees / visitors who are looking to obtain citizenship.

This is an issue I have an issue making my mind on.  On one side, I think people relocating outside the country permanently should give up their citizenship after X years of not permanently residing in Canada because of factors outside the Government's (any level) control (barring some exceptions).  On the other side, I understand Canadians living abroad may identify more to Canadian culture than to their host nation's.  I think I lean more towards the side of people giving up their citizenship.  After all, most people do make that decision on their own and at that point, they start being "Canadians of convenience".  It does bring issues though, like a case where the host nation won't give citizenship. But again, I my mind is not set.

Cupper:  Just out of curiosity, why won't you become an American citizen?

 

[Blackadder1916]

This is an issue I have an issue making my mind on.  On one side, I think people relocating outside the country permanently should give up their citizenship after X years of not permanently residing in Canada because of factors outside the Government's (any level) control (barring some exceptions).  On the other side, I understand Canadians living abroad may identify more to Canadian culture than to their host nation's.  I think I lean more towards the side of people giving up their citizenship.  After all, most people do make that decision on their own and at that point, they start being "Canadians of convenience".  It does bring issues though, like a case where the host nation won't give citizenship. But again, I my mind is not set.

So which of these expat Canadians should be stripped of citizenship?

They probably all aren't ordinarily resident in the USA - four of the twenty-three on the roster play for Canadian teams.  Now, if one of the conditions for playing on Team Canada was meeting the same criteria as for voting, how long do you expect the winning streak to last?

Yes, personal bias will enter into such an argument and if honestly assessed the original drafters of the legislation in 1993 and those who tweaked it in 2007 didn't mean those kind of "Canadians of convenience".

Should this expat Canadian (does she still reside in the US?) also be excluded from voting?

Didn't she have something to do with politics in 1993?

Now there are (in my opinion at least) some expats who should not be permitted to vote - in fact we shouldn't even let them back into the country.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Blackladder, I did specify with some exceptions.

For the common of mortals (who arguably do not bring anything to the Country, as opposed to exceptions who should bring something significant to Canada to be considered an exception), why should they enjoy all the benefits of being Canadian?

 

[cupper]

Cupper:  Just out of curiosity, why won't you become an American citizen?

I am a Canadian. Always have been, always will be. I breath hockey and I bleed maple syrup.

The only real benefit that I would receive from taking US citizenship is having the right to vote in US elections. And with the way things are politically down here since I moved here in 2001 certainly don't really make that a good argument for pursuing it. It does have significant tax implications when I move back to Canada in the distant future, as like many US expats are dealing with now, having to file returns and pay tax on foreign earned income while living outside the country.

Just having legal residency status here in the US creates some legal issues for travel. As a Canadian living in the US I have not been able to travel to Cuba (up until a couple of months ago anyway, and not that I've had that desire). Also, if I was younger I would also be required to register for selective service (or that is my understanding anyway) as a green card holder.

But it all comes down to the fact that I was born in Canada, not the US, and I identify with my home country (although I still have a deep yearning to return to the land of my forefathers and reclaim the Scottish throne from those evil English tyrants).

[size=10pt]*** If there are any DHS agents monitoring this site, just ignore all of that. I don't know who this Cupper guy is, God Bless America, I love Baseball, hot dogs and apple pie. ***[/size] 

 

[cupper]

So which of these expat Canadians should be stripped of citizenship?

Crosby gets my vote (but I am somewhat biased in that respect) ;D >

 

[Blackadder1916]

Crosby gets my vote (but I am somewhat biased in that respect) ;D >

Only the ones who left out their false teeth are true Canadians.

 

[Strike]

Blackladder, I did specify with some exceptions.

For the common of mortals (who arguably do not bring anything to the Country, as opposed to exceptions who should bring something significant to Canada to be considered an exception), why should they enjoy all the benefits of being Canadian?

So you would recommend a class system?

 

[SupersonicMax]

Call it what you want.  The essence of the system would be black and white with room for flexibility if the GoC deems an exception is warranted.

 

[dapaterson]

So, six generations of welfare in east-end Montreal = vote in elections.  Get a high-paying influential job in Singapore and be part of the Canadian expat scene, building relationships and trade between Canada and Singapore = no vote in elections.

 

[George Wallace]

Shall we ask why prisoners of our Federal and Provincial Institutions have a say in our nations  Law making?

 

[cupper]

Shall we ask why prisoners of our Federal and Provincial Institutions have a say in our nations  Law making?

Because they aren't planning to leave the country any time soon.  >

 

[George Wallace]

So you would recommend a class system?

Actually, we, with Bill C-24, have created a sort of class system.