Locking Forums & Academia Debate

[Infanteer]

Be careful; in writing an academic paper relying on the opinions of different people in different positions, you are most likely going to have to find statistics to back up the points you are trying to draw from the interviews.

 

[Glorified Ape]

Glorified Age: I'm not entirely after anecdotal evidence, but in answer to your question, yes, academic papers welcome most forms of evidence. All universities, however require that you evaluate the accountability of your resources. I'm interested in what both experts and the populace have to say, and I think it's vital to evaluate both, especially if the issue is one that affects people from all walks of life.

Maybe I'm wrong, but from my experience with poli sci anecdotal evidence is pretty useless and largely regarded as spurious and irrelevant to an effective argument. I'm not knocking your approach, I'm just saying it could hurt your paper. My buddy was TA'ing and marked a girl's paper whose topic was "how Canadians feel about the monarchy". Well, she did interviews with people around the Montreal area and used the opinions/information in her paper and summarily flunked the assignment. I've always found it's safer to base your arguments solely on info gleaned from academic/statistical sources. You can't really evaluate what the public (or military personnel) have to say by conducting interviews (unless you conducted several thousand with a representative sample group) and so any information you use in your paper will have no real significance or utility and can serve only as filler and a misdirection of your efforts.

But hey, it could depend on your prof's attitudes. I guess it ultimately depends on what your prof thinks.

 

[McG]

Only a few hundred interviews would be needed to get statistical accuracy, but would this site provide an appropriate cross section of the CF?

However, where our views are informed, we may be able to provide non-military people with information that allows them to make thier own opinions on what is really going on.

 

[MissMolsonIndy]

I get the impression that the majority of you think that I am relying too heavily on outside research/interviews. My arguments are very heavily based on statistics and research previously conducted by scholars, with alternative sources to pad my arguments, and broaden my knowledge on the subject. Alternative sources are hard to come by, and it will be difficult for me to find works published that run against how the mass media depicts issues. I've always been taught to think outside the box, and look to sources that are ordinarily overlooked. As far as statistical accuracy goes, no matter how large the group of respondants, bias will be there staring you back in the face. My plan is to select at random, and try to recreate the different citizens that compose a society, but even then, there's no avoiding it.

You're right, I'll never be able to evaluate what every single individual or military member have to say, but by taking a sampling of the population, and forming my own statistical evidence, I can make an educated guess on what the public thinks. I have yet to see statistical evidence that has been inclusive of every member under study, and if there exists one, something like that would take years to put together.

As far as including anecdotal evidence into your research goes, I've never had a problem with it. Perhaps the girl flunked the assignment for a variety of reasons...it's highly possible that she conducted her research poorly, didn't have valid evidence to support her claims, or just overall wrote a shitty paper. It's been known to happen.

In my experience, there are a couple of key things that distinguish an 'A' paper from a 'B' paper, one of those being a student who draws upon both mainstream and alternative sources in conducting research, and isn't afraid to present alternative, and perhaps contradictory ways of thinking about an issue.

In the end, I expect the information that I draw out of the public to put the icing on the cake. 

 

[combat_medic]

And what if you discover, through your interview process that everyone beside yourself agrees with the current policy? Not to mention that we, as Canadians, are hardly in a position to be dictating terms on foreign policy to the US, no matter what our personal opinions happen to be.

It's very easy for some tenured, leftist university professor to sit back and talk about how all war is wrong, and that nothing on earth could urge him to fight. He has a captive audience of cloistered kids who, for the most part, have never lived a day in the real world. They spend their days in a classroom, taught by individuals who have never set foot outside of an academic institution, and who are never made to justify their positions, or put their personal opinions into real action.

I remember personally being at university and even in my current employment am surrounded by a university environment and am constantly amazed at the perpetual misinformation that gets passed off as fact within these institutions. University students exist in a world where they actually believe that simply asking an autocratic dictator to lay down his arms, link hands and sing Kumbaya that it will immediately happen. When the war in Iraq broke out, there were protests en masse, and yet at this campus, the protests ended the moment class began. While the students were so engrossed in saving the world, they didn't even care enough to take a failing grade on a quiz in order to make their point. When confronted about doing something tangible for the world other than writing a paper or article, painting a protest sign or handing out flyers, all balk at the mere suggestion about going overseas in a peace corps, for the international Red Cross or, god forbid, actually contribute money to international aid organizations. Moreover, half of those I spoke to didn't even vote, and weren't planning to, using as their excuse; "If voting could change anything, it would be illegal."

So, if you intend to go through with your paper with the current thesis, you should be prepared that nearly every military member you interview will likely disagree with you, many of whom, like Infanteer, have a great deal of real world experience to back them up, including international peacekeeping missions.

Also, with regards to your statement about "Ignarance is Bliss"; there's obviously enough information against Bush and his Ilk to satiate Michael Moore for a lifetime. All the information, documentation and other evidence is there for the taking, but if you're too busy believing every conspiracy theory spouted off by some hack on the internet (or some other hack in a university with tenure), then you are just as guilty. If you only research one side of an argument and aren't aware of all the evidence to the contrary, you're hardly in any position to create a valid argument.

You want a good interview? Talk to some of the Iraqi and Afghani refugees in Canada and ask them about what life was like in their respective home countries before the intervention of the US.

 

[dutchie]

He has a captive audience of cloistered kids who, for the most part, have never lived a day in the real world.

That's a pretty broad statement. I know of quite a few University students (both reservists and civies) that have a lot of life experience, and a lot of res soldiers that don't have a clue about anything non-CF related.

Judge not lest ye be judged there Combat Medic.

They spend their days in a classroom, taught by individuals who have never set foot outside of an academic institution, and who are never made to justify their positions, or put their personal opinions into real action.

You obviously have no clue how the academic world works. Profs are paid to do research and publish papers. A secondary duty is to teach. The validity of their findings are tested prior to publishing, and those standards vary depending on the discipline. Many Profs DO have real world experience, either in their chosen field (Law Profs who have practiced law, Poli-Sci profs who have worked in Gov policy Departments, etc), or other fields (a remuster of sorts). To paint all of Academia with the 'You don't have a clue you leftist egg-head' is no different than one of them painting a soldier as a dumb, grade 10 educated, Neanderthal right-wing warmonger.

University students exist in a world where they actually believe that simply asking an autocratic dictator to lay down his arms, link hands and sing Kumbaya that it will immediately happen.
Seeing as you said "they actually believe", I assume you are serious. In that case you are either full of it, or you work with retards.

While the students were so engrossed in saving the world, they didn't even care enough to take a failing grade on a quiz in order to make their point.

Yeah, 'cause thousands of Canadian University kids failing their first term paper because they were so upset about the war would definitely catch the eye of Bush. I say they did the right thing. Disagree, protest if you wish, but you have a job to do (study).

When confronted about doing something tangible for the world other than writing a paper or article, painting a protest sign or handing out flyers, all balk at the mere suggestion about going overseas in a peace corps, for the international Red Cross or, god forbid, actually contribute money to international aid organizations.

Go overseas? That's our job. Money? Ever heard of the Starving student? I'm not saying I like the ignorant left wing nutter on the campus any more than you do, but they have their way of voicing their opinion, you have yours (Internet). Let them do their thing, as they let you do yours.

So, if you intend to go through with your paper with the current thesis, you should be prepared that nearly every military member you interview will likely disagree with you

Maybe, maybe not. At least she is willing to listen to our opinion. I'm not sure why you are crapping all over someone who is trying to reach out to a demographic that has a predominantly different opinion to her own. She has asked for our opinion on a certain topic, and is using that info to assist her in studying a major issue in world affairs. She could have just written her own opinions, or interviewed people from a safer demographic, but she wanted the opinion of soldiers. I assume she read the various threads on the war in Iraq on this forum, and as such would know that the majority would disagree with her. She ignored the risk of members who would rip into her (like you), and asked for help anyway.

Nice way of reaching out to a polite civie with questions who wants your help.

 

[Infanteer]

For some reason, the wealth of learning that university affords youth tends to make most of them idealists.   At university, most kids seem to think that they've learned the key to solving the world's problems - hence the reason why the last bastion of Marxisms is in University student groups.

As well, many professors have never left the halls of academia.   I can pull up any faculty list, and you'll see that upon completion of a PhD, many have simply found tenure somewhere and wrote papers for 30 years.   I remember one of my Profs, who was a big mouth lout and pegged himself as an expert in Strategic and War Studies, trying to wow the class with name dropping and military techo-gabble.   I basically quit taking him seriously when he interrupted his ad hominem attacks against George Bush to tell us that Fort Lewis was the home of the 10 Mountain Division, a commando unit.

Remember, those who can - do.   Those who can't - teach (That's why Llyod Axworthy is a Professor at UBC....)

 

[combat_medic]

Profs are paid to do research and publish papers.

Are you implying that doing research and writing papers is tantamount to real life experience? I would hardly consider reading books in a library "real world experience", would you?

Yes, there are some profs with real life experience, just as there are some students in the same position. There are adult students, and students who have gone on peacekeeping missions, but they are far from the majority by a long shot.

Seeing as you said "they actually believe", I assume you are serious.

Unfortunately, I am. Having made the mistake of engaging some of the anti-war protestors in a dialogue expecting an intelligent discussion, they told me that the solution to the problem in both Iraq and Afghanistan was to send ambassadors requesting them to relinquish control of the country. They, being supposedly intelligent human beings, really believed that asking them to stop would actually work. I sincerely wish that I were making this up, as I'm amazed anyone could have been that sheltered.

thousands of Canadian University kids failing their first term paper because they were so upset about the war would definitely catch the eye of Bush.

Obviously not, but I think it's pretty demonstrative of how their personal comfort is more important than their adopted political cause, and their inability to tolerate hardship for something they believe in.

I'm not saying I like the ignorant left wing nutter on the campus any more than you do, but they have their way of voicing their opinion, you have yours (Internet). Let them do their thing, as they let you do yours.

I also don't have much in terms of money to contribute to the causes I support, but I do give of my time to several charities throughout the year, and am realistic enough to realize that in order to effect change, you have to do real work, and not just talk about it.

I'm not sure why you are crapping all over someone who is trying to reach out to a demographic that has a predominantly different opinion to her own

You may care to re-read my reply to her. I think I stated pretty clearly that I believed she was approaching her thesis with an apparent bias, and that the CF members she was planning to interview would probably not fit in to it. There were no personal attacks against her, other than warnings of the bias of Western Academia. I'm stating my opinions, just as she was stating hers, which is quite different than a personal attack, and I'm sorry you construed it as such.

Infanteer: amen.

 

[dutchie]

I think I stated pretty clearly that I believed she was approaching her thesis with an apparent bias, and that the CF members she was planning to interview would probably not fit in to it.

Having a bias when doing a 'paper' is fine. It is, after all, her thesis, her opinion. If all 'papers' had to be 100% unequivocal fact, then only one paper could be written on any specific topic. It is the combination of experience, knowledge, opinion, and research into others work's that make up a well written paper, IMHO. The fact she has a bias is almost a prerequisite, not a hindrance.

And in so far as you attacking her, I would agree that if she were arguing her opinion on the war itself (antiwar), you could have at 'er. My problem is this: whether she took offence to it or not, I feel you went at her with an 'Anti-Academia' position, when she has expressed nothing but respect, tact, and professionalism to us. She could have come here and said, "The war is crap, make love not war, Bush is an arsehole, etc." but she didn't. You responded to her polite queries with an attack on Academia, and regardless of whether your postion on Academia is accurate or not, that attack was unwarranted and irrelevant.

'Nuff said.

 

[Cloud Cover]

I agree with Caesar on this one [ouch]: a biased position is encouraged in a poli sci paper, the standard professors now want to see their polic sci students achieve is to actually take a position and advance it with reason and logic. However, one must also take care to argue the strengths and weaknesses of a stated position. The whole idea of a thesis is to be able to defend the integrity of the argument. 

 

[dutchie]

Bingo Whiskey. And by listening to a variety of opinions, you enable yourself to 'shore up' the defence of your position.

Anyhow, I kinda felt that MissMolsonIndy was unfairly criticized and feel that the reason for the criticism is more because of who she is (University Poli-Sci/Intl Relations Student) rather than what the request was. If Michael Dorosh for instance, started a post requesting interviews with members for his paper, I don't think he would have received an attack on Academia (and him by proxy) in response.

Anyhow, Rant over. Carry on as if you're normal. No one will know the difference.

 

[48Highlander]

Having a bias when doing a 'paper' is fine. It is, after all, her thesis, her opinion. If all 'papers' had to be 100% unequivocal fact, then only one paper could be written on any specific topic. It is the combination of experience, knowledge, opinion, and research into others work's that make up a well written paper, IMHO. The fact she has a bias is almost a prerequisite, not a hindrance.

And in so far as you attacking her, I would agree that if she were arguing her opinion on the war itself (antiwar), you could have at 'er. My problem is this: whether she took offence to it or not, I feel you went at her with an 'Anti-Academia' position, when she has expressed nothing but respect, tact, and professionalism to us. She could have come here and said, "The war is crap, make love not war, Bush is an arsehole, etc." but she didn't. You responded to her polite queries with an attack on Academia, and regardless of whether your postion on Academia is accurate or not, that attack was unwarranted and irrelevant.

So having a bias when doing a paper is fine, but having an "anti-acadamia" bias when writing a post is wrong?  He wasn't attacking her, he was simply stating that the responses she's likely to receive from serving members of the CF are going to be a LOT different than what you'd expect from the majority of people in academic circles.  In addition to that, he explained why he thought this was so.  Anyone who sees that as an attack seriously needs to grow some thicker skin.  In fact, if you're looking for someone to rant at about their "attacks", why not look at Molson Girls choice of words when talking about Americans and ignorance?  I think she phrased it rather well, and a lot more politely than many other such phrases that I have seen, however, it's still a lot more akin to an attack than anything that Combat Medic has posted.

 

[dutchie]

Just saw your post Morpheus. Well said.


First of all, Combat Medic is a 'she' not a 'he'.

Re:So having a bias when doing a paper is fine, but having an "anti-academia" bias when writing a post is wrong?

In short, no. As I stated, CombatMedic may be right in her argument of Academia, but she still should not have gone after her like that. MissMolsonIndy didn't ask her to give her opinion on Academia....in fact she didn't ask her opinion on anything. She was asking for help with an Academic paper, and received an attack on Academia in response.

Re: Anyone who sees that as an attack seriously needs to grow some thicker skin.

Keep in mind that MissMolsonIndy is a 20 year old female University student, not a 35 yr old Infantry Warrant.

In fact, if you're looking for someone to rant at about their "attacks", why not look at Molson Girls choice of words when talking about Americans and ignorance?

Oddly enough, this is the one thing that CombatMedic (or anyone else) could really hammer MissMolsonIndy on, but she didn't. She chose to denigrate Academia to an Academic who politely asked for help.

 

[48Highlander]

First of all, Combat Medic is a 'she' not a 'he'.

whoops  my apologies to Combat Medic then, didn't bother checking her profile.

In short, no. As I stated, CombatMedic may be right in her argument of Academia, but she still should not have gone after her like that. MissMolsonIndy didn't ask her to give her opinion on Academia....in fact she didn't ask her opinion on anything. She was asking for help with an Academic paper, and received an attack on Academia in response.

Keep in mind that MissMolsonIndy is a 20 year old female University student, not a 35 yr old Infantry Warrant.

I just think it's amusing that you're the one complaining about it being an attack.  I doubt Miss Molson would have seen it as such, even if she is a "20 year old female University student".  Incidentaly, by your logic even that sentence could be taken as an attack on young female university students.  I'm sure there are plenty of militant feminists out there who would take offense to it.

Oddly enough, this is the one thing that CombatMedic (or anyone else) could really hammer MissMolsonIndy on, but she didn't. She chose to denigrate Academia to an Academic who politely asked for help.

Well, let's agree to disagree.  I'd be very interested on seing Miss Molsons take on this whole conversation.

 

[dutchie]

Well, let's agree to disagree.  I'd be very interested on seing Miss Molsons take on this whole conversation.

Agreed. I would also be interested.

 

[pjocsak]

My concern isn't with regard to her lack of real world experience, but is about her research methodology.

UBC has made a conscious decision to call their department "Political Science", not "Politics". To the uninitiated this might seem like mere semantics, but it plays a very important role in the department's outlook. Political Science encompases a decidedly empiricist view of the discipline whereby students and faculty are expected to emulate the approaches to research exemplified by the natural sciences. Politics denotes a more normative approach. Politics is the home of political philosophy and other approaches along this line. Now, this typology might not apply to the University of of British Columbia, and may infact be more reflective of mainstream social science thought at the time that the department was created, but it should still be born in mind when submitting assignments.

What does this have to do with the thesis in question?

Well, as far as I can tell she is still in the stage of collecting her data (i.e. the request for interviews and opinions), therefore she could not have had time to analyse it, never mind come to some sort of conclusion about her findings and translate this into a thesis. With an eye to UBC's apparent empiricist leanings, this approach would appear to be directly opposed to the models espoused by natural scientists and their empiricist breathren. To me, it would appear to be nothing more than an argumentive paper more suited to a class in rhetoric or philosophy. To propose a thesis before you have completed researching and collecting information would seem to me to be the wrong way to go about academic research.

But, that's just me.

P.

 

[paracowboy]

To propose a thesis before you have completed researching and collecting information would seem to me to be the wrong way to go about academic research.

Bingo.

 

[Infanteer]

To propose a thesis before you have completed researching and collecting information would seem to me to be the wrong way to go about academic research.

This is a first year paper.  The topic is narrowed down so as to allow the student to avoid become bogged down by the sheer volume of available material to look at.

As well, one should have their rough thesis in mind when writing a paper.  I am out to say X.  In researching X, if I find that Y seems to be more thouroughly supported, then perhaps it's time to revise the thesis.  But in a classroom environment, with boundaries on the structure and time allowed, you need X to start from - they don't have the luxury spending 10 years on a piece of written work.  This is what I am getting at.

 

[dutchie]

Well said Infanteer. Let's also not assume that she is at UBC. She could very well be at any number of Lower Mainland Universities or Colleges. As well, every paper I have ever written, with a few exceptions possibly, I have always had my hyposthesis prior to research. As well, revision of one's thesis is common and sometimes a good thing. Maybe her paper will change focus completely, maybe not, but having a pre-established opinion prior to research, in my view, is almost a requirement....it helps to give you focus.

Anyhow, this dead horse has been beaten thoroughly, so I'll bow out....for now.

 

[MissMolsonIndy]

Let us also not assume that she's in first year. Try third.

I've been reading through the thread. Some excellent points have been brought up, I hope you're looking forward to a response...