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Let them fail!

Looks a lot better than a Prius, blows away the Smart Car, and has everything you’d want in a luxury sedan, for the price of a Honda Civic… think the Big 3 could possibly match this?

Thucydides the day I have to buy a car made in China is the day I hand in my license and start taking the bus. Besides I would be afraid I may get lead poisoning from the paint. I can just imagine the fun the insurance industry will have with this one, the crash test dummies will walk out and go on strike.
I'm sorry, but this will be a total death trap "1980's Hyundia Pony", kind of garbage. The Chinese are not concerned with the safety or longevity of this product, but simply with cashing in on sales from naive foreigners and since Buffet owns 9.9%, he will want to see numbers. If it's a lesson in what Communist countries are good at making, safe relaible cars are not one of them.

Heres what the Chinese don't want us to see: http://www.break.com/index/failed-chinese-crash-test.html

 
retiredgrunt45 said:
And and 19 just how much experience is that  ::). Please come back and talk to me when you know what your talking about. Autoshop doesn't count. What in the 90's you were, what 10-12 years old, the only thing your were driving was a bicycle.

By "My experience", maybe I should have put every single person I know who drives.  Please, don't patronize me, I did nothing to offend you.
You don't know what I know, and I don't pretend to know much.  So how would one know if I "know what I am talking about or not"?  Just because someone is being vague, doesn't mean they're clueless.

I also don't get the 4 billion sum from Canada.  A drop in the ocean really.  Ford has about 38 billion in the bank, and that is expected to last about 3 years.  3 billion, for the companies in general?  I fail to see the point really.  Nice gesture, but it's like giving a starving homeless man a bread crumb.  And Ford is currently the best off out all three in terms of cash on hand.  Chrysler could be done in less than a year.  Potentially, worst case.  It is private company, so who knows really, other than the company itself.


*Nevermind, it has already been adressed in a round about way.  Danke*
 
I'm sorry I offended you, but maybe in the future you should heed your own advice and stick to what you do know.

In the 70's and 80's the Japanese were making junk, North American auto makers were making gas guzzlers because that's what the people wanted, gas was cheap 35 cents a gallon in the mid 70's and .90 cents a gallon in the early 80's. When the clean air act of 1972 came about cars stayed the same size but they put in smaller engines and that's when the big 3's demise came about. No one wanted a yacht with a row boat engine.

In the end of the 80's and beginning of the 90's the Japanese started to manufacturer better cars, they were still rust buckets but they had improved. The big 3 made all kinds of mistakes during this time, but they had also had some success stories. This is when they parted ways, or so we think they did. The US was making smaller cars and now the Japanese were making bigger SUV's and full size trucks, but the big 3 already had the truck market wrapped up, with the Ford F-150, the Chevy Silverado and the Dodge Ram.

Next came the hybrids, the Japanese led the way in the mid 90's with the Prius, which seen nominal sales, the big 3 didn't make any hybrids until the turn of the century and that's we're we find ourselves today.

Its not that the big 3 make bad cars, its just that the Japanese have already notched out the market the big 3 are now trying to play catch up to enter.
 
In the 70s and 80s the Japanese were making what they were advertising, Cheap vehicles.  And cheap often comes with problems.  They improved quickly though, and their strategies worked (at least for Honda).

I agree, Not necessarily bad.  But they are playing a mean game of catch up.

Again, you don't know what I know, and it is the same the other way around.  I'm not getting too involved in this, as I have learned that there is no point in arguing.  No one on this site knows what industry I work in, or what primary sources I have.  And I don't care if they don't because it doesn't make a difference, every ones minds seem to be made up.

You can continue supporting the American manufacturers (some of which I strongly would like to see stay for a very long time), and I will continue purchasing from the companies that I have not, nor my family or friends have had any big problems with.  And yes, individual dealers play a big part.  The ones my family goes to treat people really well, and that itself makes a big difference.  Where as the Big 3 dealers in Barrie can at times be less than stellar.

I won't buy a Triumph motorcycle because the local (and only one anywhere near here) dealer, pushes too hard to sell, doesn't know the competition, and at times doesn't know their own product.  Great machines, but no thanks.  Not right now.  So in my opinion, it is not just the car or motorcycle.
Barrie Harley has customers from all over Ontario.  And some have said that if they hadn't found that dealer, they wouldn't be riding an American bike.
 
Koenigsegg said:
..... have learned that there is no point in arguing....... every ones minds seem to be made up.

I too get frustrated with not being able to convince the regular correspondents of the error of their ways.  Sometimes that results in me throwiing my hands up and walking out of the debate.

But.

On the other hand there are many people who read these Fora for a variety of reasons, and don't actively contribute to the debate.  They are just gatherinng ideas or enjoying the fight.  They are as much your "audience" as the debaters themselves.  We may seldom get our antagonists to cry "Uncle" and yet still have an enjoyable, and productive, debate.

And I ask other members of the Forum to quote this back at me the next time I fly off the handlle myself.  ;D
 
How did it even get to this point? How far from their roots have Unions gone and now they have a huge portion of responsibility to accept for the current state of affairs. I feel no sympathy for any of them. Even at 50.00 an hour, this is still over 100K a year and not including overtime...... There's no need for that. Then throw in the benefits they also get handed to them..... Let em sink

 
retiredgrunt45 said:
And and 19 just how much experience is that  ::). Please come back and talk to me when you know what your talking about.

I'm 33 and have owned both domestic cars and imports.

My last 3 cars have been Mitsubishi's. I will never go back to the Big 3. All the domestic cars were unreliable, the service from both the various dealerships and parent companies was junk, they often refused to honour their waranties and never managed to do simple repairs on time. The quality of workmanship of each domestic car i owned was ridiculous. Interior parts did not line up properly, often fell of due to poor instalation.

My foreign cars have none of these issues.

Please come back and tell me something smart about not being old enough or something.........
 
I also was driving in the 70s, both foreign and domestic. In general terms the quality of today's vehicles is light years ahead of those of three decades ago. Domestic cars were designed to be replaced every two or three years and one with 60,000 miles or 100,000 kilometres on the clock was considered to be on its last legs. Planned obsolescence was the term used for the concept that saw the big three pumping out millions of cars a year. It also was the era that saw huge problems with quality, especially as legend has it, with vehicles produced on Mondays and Fridays. At one time or other during this period my wife and I both had Ford/Mercury Cougars which were rust buckets. In fact there was a grass roots movement to boycott Ford because of the tendency of their products to turn to rust, although this was eventually fixed.

In other words, a void developed created by some poorly designed and built domestic models aided by the energy crisis of 1973, and the Japanese stepped into it. The big three lost the initiative which means market share and were unable to get it back, except in the field of SUVs and pick ups. And they at least at this time proved to be an evolutionary dead end.

I am unable to predict the future of the Detroit three, but I am not optimistic. Even if they are able to fix themselves and produce the types of vehicles the driving public wants, the population is aging and the work force is shrinking. There still will be a large market, but will it resemble the present one?
 
reccecrewman said:
How did it even get to this point? How far from their roots have Unions gone and now they have a huge portion of responsibility to accept for the current state of affairs. I feel no sympathy for any of them. Even at 50.00 an hour, this is still over 100K a year and not including overtime...... There's no need for that. Then throw in the benefits they also get handed to them..... Let em sink


I've tried to stay quiet during the reads, but your post really gots my dander up, not that I disagree  with it, but it reminds me again what a spoiled bunch of A.. Holes the Auto Workers and their Unions are. Considering that the heaviest physical out put they are required to do is use a power  tool, every thing else is robot or power  assisted and any body with a grade seven education could do any job going, on the Line.

$50.00 a hour is still to God Dam much. I had the misfortune to visit our Local Hospital ER this Friday and witnessed the Nurses there and what they do for $32.00 per hour, God knows what the Medical Asst's. and Orderly's get. To all you MED's out there, my Heart goes out to you and I don't know how you do it.

And for American Cars, they stopped making them from 1969 on.

And as a foot note to this Rant, I just sold my 1974 Mercedes 280S 4 door Straight 128/6 cyl. The next day the add was out, still in perfect condition. How many Detroit Crap are still on the road after 35 years, only the classics's and check what year they were made in.
 

 
Why should my tax dollars be used to prop up something like the auto industry with the problem THEY created. If they truly were looking to stay current streamlined andall the rest of the buzz words they would of seen this cominga long time ago and started on restructuring then not now.. Sc$ew them  there are many other industries that need the help and why is it the Unions get it . What about the private sector out here in the west and the East? if you watch the news in the US the banks and other institutes said no bonuses as part of their bailout package but they were caught doing it anyway ..  i think they should be allowed to fail in the mess they created 
 
Auto workers are not the problem; their (earned at bargaining tables) wages and benefits are a symptom of the problem.

All the anecdotal evidence from all the Army.ca members is totally, completely worthless. The statistical evidence of the past 50 years tells a far, far different story:

http://blog.macleans.ca/2008/11/20/the-decline-of-the-north-american-car/3/
In the early 1960s, they controlled almost 95 per cent of the U.S. auto market. By 1980, that had slipped to around 80 per cent. Even a decade ago, GM was still the world’s largest company. Today, the label “Big Three” is about as dated as the tail fins on a ’50s Cadillac. With a market share of around 44 per cent, they’ve been downsized to “the Detroit Three.” The Asian carmakers, like Toyota, Honda, Hyundai and Kia, now hold 48 per cent of the U.S. market, according to Autodata Corp. And last year, Toyota sold more cars globally than GM for the first time. German carmakers like Volkswagen have also established themselves as industry giants. Thirty years ago, these companies were afterthoughts in North America. This summer, the Honda Civic overtook the Ford F-series pickup as the bestselling vehicle in America.

GM, on the other hand, has gone nowhere. In 1962, it sold 4.2 million automobiles and employed 605,000 people. In 2005, GM sold 4.5 million cars and employed 335,000 people—26 per cent of the market, with 11 major competitors. And while critics often point to rich employment contracts as the culprit in GM’s decline, that is only part of the story. While labour accounts for roughly $1,500 of the cost of each vehicle, GM, Ford and Chrysler offer anywhere from $3,500 to $7,000 in incentives to car buyers, says Ken Lewenza, the new head of the Canadian Auto Workers. “It’s not about labour rates, it’s about market, market, market. We could work for nothing and it still wouldn’t improve the bottom line or market conditions.”

Read those numbers again: over the past 45± years GM has produced about 200,000,000 vehicles but its market share, in North America, has dropped from around 45% of nearly 10,000,000 cars per year to about 20% of nearly 25,000,000 cars per year. Ruthless, effective and efficient competition from Asia and Europe has made most cars much more affordable (as a percentage of normalized take family income), thus ‘growing’ the entire market (there are many, many more two and three car families in 2008 than there were in 1958) and ‘growing’ the range of passenger vehicles available (from the tiny Smart fortwo through to the mighty Dodge Ram with everything imaginable in between).

Toyota is not, now, the world’s top automaker because it made or makes junk. The fact that eight of the world’s top ten automakers are Asian (four) and European (four) is not because they undercut the Big Three’s prices around the world.

Starting in the ‘50s the Europeans began a serious assault on the rich North American market, offering cars Ford executive were reputed to have described as “not worth a damn!”

800px-1949-volkswagen-archives.jpg


Austin_A40_Somerset_1952.jpg


North Americans wanted these small, economical and cheap cars – the growth of suburbia created demand for a second car to augment the big family sedan that dad drove to work.

800px-%2756_Chevrolet_Bel_Air_Sedan.JPG


By the late ‘70s Asian and European cars had a strong foothold in North America, thanks, in part, to the 1973 energy crisis that focused North American minds on fuel economy. The Japanese, especially, under the guidance of Deming and Juran focused on quality just as the Big Three were revelling in the idea of planned obsolescence which made quality a second tier consideration. By the ‘90s the Japanese were able to charge a premium price for their modest cars and increase their market share at the same time.

The simple fact is that the Big Three are dinosaurs and, like the real dinosaurs of 65 million years ago they are going to go extinct. Just as the dinosaurs’ descendants remain amongst us, in the form of chickens, for example, so the descendants of the Big Three will remain – smaller, more utilitarian and less threatening.

We, American and Canadian taxpayers (and probably Australian, Brazilian and Chinese taxpayers, too) are going to throw billions and billions (only just starting with $20+ billion in 2008) at the dinosaurs in a vain effort to stop them from slipping into the tar pits – that may help to ease the inevitable, for the benefit of a few tens of thousands of middle class working men and women.

We need a new business model for the automotive sector. Asia will, almost certainly provide it.

 
How about the Big Three merge into one company?  That cuts off two of the Hydras heads and make the worker pool non-union with reasonably good wages and benefits?  They they could take the best of all of their R&D, make a car that kicks the crap out of anything Asian or European (cross bred innards aside) and retain the industry? 
All you would have to do is get 2/3 of the executives to step down and get the workers to agree to working in a non union environment.  Everyone works together to save the business and make a quality product that lasts. 




:rofl:

I know.  I crack me up too. 
 
I have no doubt that Asia, Europe and Eurasia would pick up the slack after several years, but wow, would that ever mess up the economy more than it already is in the meantime.  Big time.

Currently, what's bad for the big three is bad for the rest of them.  That will eventually change of course, but for now were gambling with some pretty big dice either way.
 
It sounds very similiar to the coal mining crisis in England a few decades back... the government had to inject miliions of dollars to bolster a dying energy sector because too much money had been invested in the infrastructure and too many workers were unwilling to retrain for a new occupation...

 
zipperhead_cop said:
How about the Big Three merge into one company?  That cuts off two of the Hydras heads and make the worker pool non-union with reasonably good wages and benefits?  They they could take the best of all of their R&D, make a car that kicks the crap out of anything Asian or European (cross bred innards aside) and retain the industry? 
All you would have to do is get 2/3 of the executives to step down and get the workers to agree to working in a non union environment.  Everyone works together to save the business and make a quality product that lasts. 




:rofl:

I know.  I crack me up too. 

Small furry mammals replaced dinosaurs (and the remaining dinosaurs morphed into birds), so history and ecology tells us the opposite approach is needed.

GM can splinter into GMC, Corvette, perhaps Saturn and the European brands (Opal, SAAB), Chrysler will devolve into Jeep and probably MOPAR high performance parts while Ford seems able to survive on its own (although it may actually have to shed its US division like a skin and become an importer of Ford of Europe products and its luxury division vehicles like Volvo and Land Rover. Maybe Checker can be revived as a manufacturer.

They can then successfully compete against the Japanese, Germans, Indians and Chinese, as well as new US manufacturers like Carbon Motors.
 
Rumours are flying around about talk of a merger between GM and Chrysler.  The Nissan-Renault group is also looking at Chrysler.
The thing about a merger between GM and Chrysler, is that GM would be the one with most of the wealth and power.  If a merger were to take place, there would a whole bunch of redundant companies, and poor selling companies.  And they can be just as expensive (exaggeration) to terminate as they are to operate (Oldsmobile, Plymouth) and it is very hard for the mother company to retain the customers of the deceased brands.  On the bright side, there would a lot of technology sharing and streamlining of production.  No matter what, a lot of money will be spent...and hopefully for the companies it pays off.

It's all speculation however (at least when the public is involved...I have no clue what goes on behind closed doors), but mergers could be worth their while.
 
They'd still be around for a while sure.  But there is still no gaurantee it will keep them here.  It would be more of a way to buy time, instead of being a cure.

Some people say the merger of GM and Chrysler will save them 10 billion a year.  GM is spending 1.5 billion a month as is, and Chrysler is supposedly losing 2 to 3 billion a year.  Chrysler is also believed to have about 10 billion in the bank. So the merger may not buy them much more than a couple years, but maybe that is all they will need?

Combined they are losing about $21 billion a year (worst case?).
GM has $20 billion on hand, and Chrysler has approximatley $10.  Even combined, not looking too good.  But maybe it will be enough.
 
I'm not necessarily for saving these companies.  I'm for saving the economy from one hell of a wollop at the worst possible time.  IF it is even possible.
 
KingKikapu said:
  I'm for saving the economy from one hell of a wollop at the worst possible time.  IF it is even possible.

These companies will go under....now or later. How much public money are we goigng to waste in the process ?
 
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