Legal Officer Recruiting [Merged]

[FJAG]

As a former legal officer, I can tell you that your law school academic performance will be assessed alongside your work experience. You will need to meet all medical and fitness requirements for the Forces. There will be a board of serving legal officers who will interview all candidates and evaluate them against each other.

Short answer: if there are sufficient candidates who rank better than you and who accept their offers then you won't get in. If you are the better candidate you will get an offer.

Bottom line is that no one can tell you what your chances are without knowing your qualifications and all those of the other candidates.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

There ya' have it.
Locked.

 

[gcclarke]

I do have to ask something...JD degree?  That the same as an Bachelor of Law?  Never heard a law degree described that way that's all.

I know I'm bumping a bit of an old thread, but J.D. = Juris Doctor, which is the type of basic degree granted by most law schools in the country. It's a "newer" term used for what was formerly called the Bachelor of Laws (abbreviated LL.B. from whatever the plural of Legum Baccalaureus Latin is), which was technically considered a bachelor's degree, despite the fact that every law school in the country didn't treat it like a bachelor's degree, and when they changed the name to J.D., it necessitated no change in their actual curriculum. The J.D. is treated as a graduate degree, as I'm sure you could guess based on the presence of "Doctor" in the name!

U of T was the first school to make the switch back in 2001, but most other schools followed suit since.

 

[cupper]

Generally, all the occupations that require a "professional degree" and a license to practice start as Captains. (e.g. physicians, dentists, pharmacists, social workers, physiotherapists, lawyers . . . the only "licensed" occupation that doesn't start as Captain is nurse)

You can include engineer to the list of licensed professional occupations that does not start out as a Captain.

 

[dapaterson]

You can include engineer to the list of licensed professional occupations that does not start out as a Captain.

Engineers in the military are not required to be licensed engineers.  Nurses in the military are required to be licensed nurses.

Apples and oranges.

 

[cupper]

Engineers in the military are not required to be licensed engineers.  Nurses in the military are required to be licensed nurses.

Apples and oranges.

True, and that is why the consideration doesn't extend to engineers. My intent was to clarify for those who may have thought otherwise.

And further to that, typically the 4 year requirement as an EIT means that when an engineer is finally qualified as a P.Eng, they should be close to promotion to Captain anyway.

 

[medicineman]

Wow - took someone almost 2 years to answer my question...thanks GC  ;D.  I knew the LL.B was the base degree for law, wasn't aware they'd changed the designation.

MM

 

[FJAG]

I'm absolutely gob-smacked. I've had my LL.B. now for thirty years and never once knew that we'd gone to a J.D. here in Canada. Obviously I'm not keeping up with my Alumni news.

Anyway, to answer your questions.

The only way you'll know as to whether or not you meet the medical/physical requirements is to apply through the recruiting process and get examined/tested. Notwithstanding that the legal branch is not a combat arm, all legal officer candidates on enrolment must meet the same baseline CF medical standards as all other recruits/officer candidates. If accepted you'll also need to complete basic military training the same as all other recruits.

Legal officers are direct entry officers with professional standing and are therefore enrolled in the rank of captain. Promotion to the rank of major is not automatic but pretty close to it and should happen after three of four years service. It had been four, gone to three and they were discussing bringing it back to four when I got out so I can't tell you exactly. Consider the rank of captain as apprentice legal officers learning their craft while the majors are the fully trained journeymen.

Please note that it is not sufficient to have your J.D. In order to be enrolled you need that and you need to be called to the bar and be a member in good standing with one of the provincial law societies.

Demand for legal officers fluctuates. The branch has undergone a period of expansion over the last decade or so but that has slowed down somewhat. The requirement for legal services never seems to shrink but in many ways openings are tied to the economy. When the economy is bad lawyers tend to flock to the public sector and when its hot they tend to go to private practice. There are quite a few legal officers now so there is a steady turnover.

Do note that selection is competitive, both for regular and reserve force legal officer positions.  All candidates are interviewed by a panel of legal officers and only the most qualified are accepted for the positions available. There are routinely many more candidates than positions and almost all successful candidates will have had several years of practising law under their belts. Being bilingual is also a distinct advantage.

Best of luck. 

 

[dapaterson]

It's lots of fun to correct a lawyer.

Lawyers are commissioned as second lieutenants, with simultaneous promotion to the rank of Captain; they are not enrolled at the rank of Captain.


This is, in part, due to 140.2(a) of the NDA - it ensures that they can be demoted to the rank of 2Lt at court-martial, should the need arise...

 

[The_Falcon]

Apparently Macleans wrote about this..almost 3 years ago. lol

http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/09/16/the-letter-of-the-law/

When law students convene at the University of Calgary this month to slog over case studies and legal precedents, they will be working toward a different degree than their predecessors: a juris doctor (J.D.) rather than the traditional bachelor of laws (LL.B) degree.

On Sept. 1, Calgary joined an ever-lengthening list of Canadian law schools to stamp J.D. on their degrees instead of those other letters. But the thinking behind the switch seems as much about politics as it is about education.


The J.D. designation is common in the United States, where students must complete an undergraduate degree before attending law school. Meanwhile, the LL.B. designation has reigned supreme in Canada and other Commonwealth countries such as Britain. The difference is that in Canada—like in the States—most students have already completed an undergrad degree before entering law school; across the pond, students can attend law school straight out of high school.

Proponents say that the J.D. signals to foreign—read American—employers that a Canadian law grad isn’t just a “snot-nosed kid barely five years removed from high school,” as Toronto litigator David Cheif­etz put it on the Canadian law website Slaw. The J.D. is now seen as “more prestigious than the LL.B.,” explains Simon Fodden, professor emeritus at Osgoode Hall law school at York University, which offers the J.D.

Indeed, the University of Toronto became the first law school to make the switch in 2001 because it was concerned that the LL.B. “understated the level of education our students had,” dean Mayo Moran told Lawyers Weekly last year. Since then, many Canadian law schools have held plebiscites and debates, and switched to the J.D., including the universities of British Columbia, Western Ontario and Queen’s.

But critics say the change amounts to “juris envy,” as Vancouver lawyer Tony Wilson quipped in a Canadian Bar Association article. More serious criticisms abound: that this marks the “Americanization” of Canadian law.

 

[ARMY_101]

I'm also looking at being a CF Legal Officer long-term. Either you enrol DEO with your LL.B./JD and having already been admitted to the bar, or you join the Reg F for two years in another trade and apply for the Military Legal Officer Training Plan.  In the latter they will send you to law school.

 

[FJAG]

It's lots of fun to correct a lawyer.

Lawyers are commissioned as second lieutenants, with simultaneous promotion to the rank of Captain; they are not enrolled at the rank of Captain.


This is, in part, due to 140.2(a) of the NDA - it ensures that they can be demoted to the rank of 2Lt at court-martial, should the need arise...

:facepalm: - absolutely correct. Mea Culpa in how I expressed that.

On two other points:

I always thought the JD was a bit funny; making it look like you had a doctorate when you really didn't. I remember when dealing with lawyers from Germany that even the most run-of-the-mill ones referred to themselves as "Herr Doktor this and that". Struck me as pretentious at the time. Note that the next level of degree from a JD is still an LL.M. The real doctorate in law comes after one has achieved an LL.M and takes a PhD in Law program at select universities in Canada.

Re the Military Legal Training Plan. Its a thing you should never count on because its rarely open for business, especially now that money is tight. Why should the government pay some captain for four years of law school and articles when there is absolutely no shortage of fully trained and qualified candidates knocking on the door? The rationale was that you balance the branch with some people who have prior service in other parts of the CF and therefore bring something extra with them. In times of financial stress, that becomes a luxury. The program is frequently not open and again, when it is, it's extremely competitive.

:cheers:

 

[dapaterson]

I have a friend whose husband went through the program.  He didn't read the fine details in advance, though.

Hence, first paycheque after he entered the program was for a Capt, not a Maj.  He either (a) didn't pay attention to the policy on rank protection on VOT or (b) forgot to mention it to his wife.

 

[gcclarke]

Re the Military Legal Training Plan. Its a thing you should never count on because its rarely open for business, especially now that money is tight. Why should the government pay some captain for four years of law school and articles when there is absolutely no shortage of fully trained and qualified candidates knocking on the door? The rationale was that you balance the branch with some people who have prior service in other parts of the CF and therefore bring something extra with them. In times of financial stress, that becomes a luxury. The program is frequently not open and again, when it is, it's extremely competitive.

:cheers:

Extremely competetive is perhaps an understatement. The information I recieved from when I queried the point of contact listed in the message was that on a typical year, the MLTP will get 70 - 80 applicants, of which 2 will usually be accepted into the program.

So... methinks I need to ace my LSAT, amongst other things.

 

[Scuba_Dave]

If an NCM were to remuster to Legal Officer. What steps would need to be taken? Please skip the obvious ones, like "Go see the BPSO" I know that most law schools only accept those with degrees into the program to begin with, with exception to the very limited (lets just call it impossible) "Mature student" acceptances. And RMC doesn't have any law based courses anymore. So if you were building towards becoming a Legal Officer from within as an NCM, what courses would you recommend? Basket weaving 101 at UVic just isn't my thing either lol.

 

[dapaterson]

Find a law school or two, and ask what they look for in their admissions process.  Use that to guide your studies.

 

[FJAG]

If an NCM were to remuster to Legal Officer. What steps would need to be taken? Please skip the obvious ones, like "Go see the BPSO" I know that most law schools only accept those with degrees into the program to begin with, with exception to the very limited (lets just call it impossible) "Mature student" acceptances. And RMC doesn't have any law based courses anymore. So if you were building towards becoming a Legal Officer from within as an NCM, what courses would you recommend? Basket weaving 101 at UVic just isn't my thing either lol.

There is no "remustering" to legal officer. For serving officers of any non legal classification there is the opportunity to apply for reclassification through selection for the Military Legal Training Plan. There are very few positions for this and the competition is fierce.

For the more normal process, the minimum requirement (other than the usual physical, medical etc requirements for all CF officer candidates) is that the individual will have been called to the bar of one of the provinces of Canada. This requires completion of law school and the relevant bar admission program for the province.

To be selected for law school, one generally does not require a degree but you do require two years of undergraduate university studies and completion of the Law School Aptitude Test. Application to law school is also very competitive therefore the higher your Grade Point Average from your university courses and the higher your LSAT score, the more likely it is you will be admitted. The actual GPA or LSAT scores vary by school and year depending on the quality of the candidates applying in any given year as most schools have a fixed number of positions available and simply take the ones off the top. (Most schools also have some positions set aside for mature or other special category students but standards are still high and the positions are competitive)

Bar admission programs vary by province. It includes taking specific bar admission courses (on line or in person) and approximately ten months of working as an articling student with a practising lawyer. All in all, the program is six years (two years undergraduate, three years law school, one year articles)

When the legal branch selects new legal officers from qualified civilian lawyers, the process is also competitive. Those who have military experience and who have experience as a full-time lawyer and who are bilingual will have an advantage.

You should note that there are no military para legals. The branch does employ some civil service paralegals and there are a number of Chief Warrant Officers who provide para legal-like services within the CF.

Hope that answers your questions.

:cheers:

 

[dapaterson]

All in all, the program is sex years (two years undergraduate, three years law school, one year articles)

From what I know of law students and the demands on their time, I wouldn't call their years of study "sex years"


More seriously, I thought I saw that Ontario was trying new approaches with articling due to an oversupply of students and an undersupply of spots for articling.

 

[legalrec]

They sure are... of course by that I mean they've organized some committees and a task force.  There is some talk of letting students shadow for free at sole practitioners.  I think they're doing some other "experimental" programs.  Not sure if any of them will take.  It's still easier to get an articling job in Canada than it is for the equivalent in England.

I've been advised, in addition to being called to the bar and having experience, your experience should be in constitutional or international law (for JAG), but FJAG would know better than I would.

 

[FJAG]

They sure are... of course by that I mean they've organized some committees and a task force.  There is some talk of letting students shadow for free at sole practitioners.  I think they're doing some other "experimental" programs.  Not sure if any of them will take.  It's still easier to get an articling job in Canada than it is for the equivalent in England.

I've been advised, in addition to being called to the bar and having experience, your experience should be in constitutional or international law (for JAG), but FJAG would know better than I would.

SIX years -- six  :facepalm:

Articles programs and courses are under constant improvement and development by the various law societies. Even in my day (that's in the mid 80s in Manitoba) it took a lot of effort to find positions for everyone. You have to note that the top half of the class rarely had a problem but the lower down the individual was in the pecking order the more difficult it was to find a principal - there's some cheap labour that comes out of hiring an articling student, but at the same time, if you do it right, having an articling student is hard work for the lawyer.

Honestly, I don't think we ever really looked for experience in international or constitutional law--its nice to have but not a necessity--and all too often young lawyers in this field are more academic in their approach to the law than practical.

Criminal law experience, however, was always a bonus. What one wanted most of all was a candidate who had a bit of time in as a lawyer but was still young so that they would have a full career in the branch. The experience we looked for was that in handling clients, organizing and managing cases and appearing in court to argue them, together with legal research and writing skills. The necessary military law (administrative, operational and mil justice processes, including the appropriate international and constitutional aspects) are specific to the CF and need to be taught within the branch in any event.

:cheers: