Kingston class: Upgrading the MCDVs.

[Ex-Dragoon]

Is the old 40 mm and the 2 x.50 HMGs onboard enough or can the the weapons fit be upgraded? I was thinking the .50s could be swapped out for some US M242 Bushmasters (25mm) and the Bofors exchanged out for an Oerlikon 30mm. If the Kingston class should ever get deployed to an operational theatre provision should be set aside for a 4 cell Javelin launcher similiar to what the German Navy does with their Frakenthall class minewarfare units (only they use a 4 cell Stinger launcher). Thoughts?

 

[Rhibwolf]

The key to your question, "is [it] enough", depends entirely on what you want to do with the weapons system.  As a platform, the MCDV is somewhat limited due to its sea friendliness and limitations wrt speed and range.    I think you were pretty much spot on when you italicized if, as im not sure we can expect to see them deployed.  We have sufficient problems manning them year round, and it seems even problematic to assign them Fish Pats out east.  Therefore, regardless of what they are carrying, if they cant get within range, it doesnt matter what (if anything) is on the bow.  That said, any platform can be fitted to mount nearly any array of weapons.  Could the MCDV be made into a beast of a different nature? sure, but I ask you a question in return:
Where and in what capacity would you like to see them deployed/employed?

RW

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Personally, I think it's money better spent elswhere.

Possibly but as long as they are in service we should make the best use of them.

RW: For me I would like to see the class get dedicated mission fits i.e 2 per coast being dedicated route survey/mine inspection ships; 2 per coast being dedicated mine sweepers; and 2 per coast being dedicated diving support ships and coastal patrol vessels.

 

[Jammer]

That's a really good idea for sure. Kind of like a Homeland security thing, meeting suspect/high-risk ships before they enter harbours for a rad/haz sweep and such.

 

[newfin]

Can the Kingston's be used as diving support vessels?  I like the idea of dedicating them to specific tasks.  Were all of the support modules ever purchased for them?  CASR seems to think that at the time the Navy wanted modest vessels devoted primarily to anti-mine warfare and that's what they ended up with.  I think the Navy should stick with their plans for a mid-life upgrade.  It's a shame to let a capability wither on the vine especially with no replacement in sight.  The Bushmaster seems to be a suitable weapon to replace the Bofors.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Although the vessels are called MCDV they are classified as Mechanical Minesweepers.  They were primarily designed for that task.  Personally I don't really care for the vessels, they are excellent training platforms and for conducting patrols, but they are too slow.  Plus all they get all the university girls in the summer.    >

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

The Bushmaster seems to be a suitable weapon to replace the Bofors.

I was favouring the M242 to replace the .50s not the Bofors.

 

[jollyjacktar]

My Dad was a "Bird Gunner" in WWII.  He told me they took away their 40mm Bofors in 44 as they were considered obsolete and issued them 20mm Orleikons instead.  They are, I am told, not being kept in tip top condition for many reasons which also include lack of manpower/experience to keep up with needed maintainance.

 

[Old_navy_062]

The 40mm currently on Kingston class vessels is the BOFORs L60 version.  These are a WWII weapon that is very hard for the LCMM to support, both in spares and ammunition.  BOFOR's offered an upgrade/swap to us in 2002 to the L70 at $1 mil a mount.  The upgrade would not have had hydraulics, so we would have been back to hand cranking it to bear on target.  The biggest problem with  supporting this platform (MCDV) is the "Concept of Operations" are under review (past 10 years and counting) and until completed and signed off, there will be no changes.  For those interested look up "LEMUR" on the BOFORs BAE web site.  This was the system that was recommended for replacement of the L60.  It gives a wide range of potential weapon systems.

 

[Jammer]

Would the hull be able to handle the Phalanx?

 

[Rhibwolf]

Im not a NavArc, but I cant think of anything that would rule this as imposible.  According to Raytheon's site, Phalanx fits virtually any ship without major ship alterations and can be interfaced with virtually any ship combat system.  If you can put guns like 105mm, 30mm, etc in aircraft, Im pretty sure a 20mm can be put on an MCDV.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

The point is why?

 

[navymich]

If it were only so simple to have the money, get the new weapons and swap them out.  But that wouldn't be the end of it.  You also need to look at completely changing the training system.  Currently, the 50cal is taught on the bosn QL2 course, and the 40mm is a separate course done after a bosn is QL2 qualified.  Train the instructors first, get the courses changed so the new bodies coming through learn the new systems.  But then you have to think about getting those already trained, re-trained.  Especially those currently employed full-time on the ships.  And it's not just the bosns, you also have to remember the RSO, WDO, rest of the bridge team, ops team etc etc.  That is alot of people to get through coursing before the ship could be certified on the weapons.  Then would come the task of retraining the Class A reservists.  I've been through an amalgamation as a Class A reserve.  It's not easy.  On one hand, you want the upgrade because otherwise you are useless if you decide to accept a Class B or C contract, but on the other hand, you have already taken time off from school/work/family and it's not always easy to get more time off.

I realize that this thread is talking about upgrades (and so far only weapons, but I'm sure that once the weapons concept has been beaten to death, we'll move on to other systems that badly need upgrading ), but the upgrade itself only scratches the surface as to what else would be involved.  So please, continue with your thoughts and ideas,they are great to hear, but be aware that I will continue to interject my navres ways on you.... ;D

 

[GAP]

Other than weapon systems, what else needs attention?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

From all my reading the 20mm is to small to engage most targets and does not offer much more than the .50cal (although I am a fan of both). In fact even the 20mm Phalanx is being replaced by a bigger version.  Arming these vessels was a huge step up from their predecessors and if I remember correctly the guns came from the AD regiment. A semi-automated 57mm modular gun system seems like the best choice. They can be swapped out and have major maintenance done on shore, plus being designed for sea duty will be easier to engage targets and can be controlled from the bridge.

Considering what just happened to the Israel Corvette, I suggest that we start considering Chaff systems also.  

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

WHat is the CIWS being replaced by? The newer Block is still a 20mm. Some navies are using the RAM Rolling Air Frame Missile). The CPFs already use the 57mm as a big CIWS (along with its other missions). BTW the Hanit did have chaff launchers for all the good it did her....

 

[GK .Dundas]

From all my reading the 20mm is to small to engage most targets and does not offer much more than the .50cal (although I am a fan of both). In fact even the 20mm Phalanx is being replaced by a bigger version.  Arming these vessels was a huge step up from their predecessors and if I remember correctly the guns came from the AD regiment. A semi-automated 57mm modular gun system seems like the best choice. They can be swapped out and have major maintenance done on shore, plus being designed for sea duty will be easier to engage targets and can be controlled from the bridge.

Considering what just happened to the Israel Corvette, I suggest that we start considering Chaff systems also.  

Just a not the Bofors were originally mounted on the carrier Bonaventure then went to The AD regiment in Germany.God knows the Govt. got it's monies worth from those guns!
And now that I think about it I wonder where they were before they were mounted on Bonnie's 's sponsons? ???

 

[Colin Parkinson]

My unit’s museum found a brand new Bofors packed into crates at the Fisheries Pat Bay dock, still in cosmoline, when assembled it was ready to go.  8)

 

[Old_navy_062]

I doubt what they found was the L60 version currently used by the Navy.  This is another of the urban legends.  As for utilizing the CIWS 1B on a MCDV,  there is no location on an MCDV where you could safely mount one.  As well, unless the policy for regular force manning changes it won't happen.  The CIWS is a labour intensive unit, that the reserves would not be able to maintain. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Actually not an Urban legend as I helped unpack it, it was circa WWII without trailered mount. It had been destined for one of the Fisheries Patrol boats, either the old Lauier or Tanu. But they decided that arming their boats was “Un-Canadian”