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JTF2 & AFG (merged)

John Nayduk

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Canada's JTF2 in Kandahar: Eggleton
      WebPosted Wed Dec 19 12:21:18 2001

      BRUSSELS-- The first Canadian soldiers to set foot in Afghanistan in the U.S.-led war
      on terrorism are members of the special JTF2 commando unit.

      Defence Minister Art Eggleton said at a meeting of NATO defence ministers in
      Brussels that 40 members of the top-secret unit are in Kandahar, working with U.S.
      special operations soldiers.

      Eggleton wouldn't say what they're doing, or if they
      have seen any action in the city that fell more than a
      week ago as the Taliban fled leaving chaos in their
      wake.

      The Joint Task Force 2 unit was formed as a top-secret
      unit in the early 1990s to take over the
      counter-terrorism role previously filled by the RCMP. Its
      members are some of the army's most skilled troops,
      including sharpshooters and explosives experts.

      The military won't reveal how many people are in the unit, how much it costs to
      operate, or exactly what the unit does.

             RELATED: Britain to take lead in Afghan peacekeeping for three months
             RELATED: PM wants answers before troops go to Afghanistan

      Eggleton's comments come a day after Prime Minister Jean Chré'©en said Canada
      would wait for a UN resolution before committing troops to a peacekeeping force in
      Afghanistan.

      That force, of up to 5,000 soldiers, will be led by the British, and will help stabilize the
      country during the first few months of the new interim government that takes office
      Dec. 22.

      The UN is expected to finalize the details on the size and makeup of the force in the
      next few days.
 
Typical! The battle is over and in come the Canadians! Now our government will expect a seat at the table and play a role in the aftermath. Then they wonder why the rest of NATO politely tells them to get lost.
 
What do you expect? We came years earlier to the big dinners (1914-1918 and 1939-1945), thereby helping to ensure that there is a NATO and a UN, and I don‘t remember being invited to adjourn to the smoking room afterward for port and cigars with the big boys. This "what have you done for us lately?" potato fodder is annoying.
 
"This "what have you done for us lately?" potato fodder is annoying."
Sorry Brad. That may be but if you still want to live in a good neighbourhood you still have to pay the rent. Try skipping the rent payments for a few months or years and see how long you stay in the neighbourhood. I personally find the governments‘ actions relating to defence embarrassing. It has led me to a great deal of soul searching. The government has shown (or given the impression) that there is no role for the regular force in war, only peacekeeping and the reserves are only used to augment the regs. overseas or for snow removal. Other than waiting for better times ahead, I have to really wonder why I give up weekends and weeknights. We are told to train to defend our nation but the government, by its actions, tells us that they don‘t care about defence. The big difference between now and 1914 / 1939 /1950 is the political will that we stand up with our allies and commit forces to the fighting. Today our government does not demonstrate that will. They have demonstrated the will to stand back and only send our troops to "safe" tasks where there is little chance that any equipment may be damaged lest they have to spend money to replace it. They have continuously shown that they do not give a damn about the sacrifices of those who gave their lives for this country unless it‘s a special interest group and they can court votes.
 
I won‘t try to defend our shameful defence policy, which I also find disheartening, so there may not be much to discuss. But I invite people to at least consider a different point of view regarding when we should stand up with our allies and commit forces.

The US is a great neighbour; I doubt we could find one better. But the US can be remarkably selfish until its own interests are at stake, and then seems offended or at least bemused when we don‘t all run to stand beside it. Why shouldn‘t we be equally self-centered? I don‘t see the US federal government slapping down its states and lobbies when they strong-arm Canada economically.

Terrorism is a global problem. But try weighing global matters objectively and proportionately. How do the total losses in lives and treasure to terrorists over all the years since 1945 stack up to the annual losses in, say, Africa to various other causes in a single year? Is there a rule which says all our external efforts must satisfy US aims, and if there is anything left over we are then free to do something elsewhere?
 
Well Brad, you make a good point. In this case though an attack against one is an attack against us all. I‘m sure that if an African country attacked one of us there would be a lot of focus there. In this case, we are not living up to our obligations.
 
Canada had it‘s chance in Afgahnistan, and we‘ve seen the PM‘s defence policy come home to roost. Last week the Brit proposal for Canada to head up the UN mission was turned down by the Canadian gov‘t. Could be because the UN is allowing for section 7 to be invoked, allowing force to be used as opposed to sec. 6 which has tied our hands for so long in the Balkans. Canadians may shoot someone, heaven forbid! Could be that after putting 1000 PPCLI on standby and having to scramble to replace a lot of them for roto to the Balkans, the realization has sunk in, WE DON‘T HAVE ENOUGH SOLDIERS! so we can‘t send them to Afgan land. Just a couple of conjectures. What‘s the use in fuming anymore, I‘m going to go puke in disgust at our dictatorship and fill the empty space with alcohol.
 
I don‘t believe for a second that anything is "over" in Afghanistan, just because the Taliban gave up and al-Qaeda is hiding out.

There is a very real need for a security force there, otherwise the problem we just "dealt with" will rise again. I believe there will be other places, too, where terrorists will take refuge and establish themselves in an organized fashion - Somolia again? Iraq? Sudan?

It isn‘t too late to put our best troops into the theatre, just because most of the dirty work is done. By no means is Afghanistan considered "safe".
 
I‘m confused here. The problem "WE" just dealt with? The only problem WE can deal with is our sorry arse government finding enough excuses not to do what is right.
 
I have to agree with my Armour colleges. This government is not going to send anybody anywhere where they may have to replace equipment. They will keep sending out excuses instead of soldiers.
 
Canada misses boat
Armed Forces not invited to participate in Afghanistan peace force

By STEPHANIE RUBEC, Sun Media

OTTAWA -- Canada is facing international embarrassment as Britain shows no sign of including Canadian troops in Afghanistan‘s stabilization force, say defence analysts.

Retired colonel Sean Henry, spokesman for the Canadian Defence Association, said our allies‘ growing concerns about the state of the Canadian Forces might cause our exclusion from the Afghan force.

Henry said a snub will highlight the Liberal government‘s failure to adequately fund the Armed Forces, causing their training and equipment to deteriorate.

"The British know the poor state of the Canadian Forces and they may not want to get involved with us," he said.

"Of course, it‘s an embarrassment and it‘s the blot on Canada‘s reputation. We talk big but we don‘t follow up with action."

Both Prime Minister Jean Chretien and Defence Minister Art Eggleton have said not all 1,000 soldiers now on alert in Edmonton and Winnipeg could be deployed. They have also said that if fighting erupts, the Canadians would be pulled out.

A 12-country advance team for Afghanis-tan‘s international peacekeeping force arrived in Kabul Tuesday to assess logistics for the full-scale arrival of foreign troops later this month.

Canada was not among the countries on the team.

British Col. Richard Barrens, chief of staff at the headquarters of the International Security Assistance Force, said the 27-person team included representatives from Germany, Austria, Denmark, Finland, France, Greece, Italy, Norway, Romania, Spain, Sweden and the Netherlands.

In London, a British government spokes-man said Britain was still trying to get the military and technical agreement reached with the Afghans signed and sealed, even though the deal was initialled earlier.

Britain would then go back to the countries that have offered troops and try to fit the mission‘s needs to what‘s being made available.

Canadian Alliance MP Leon Benoit said Britain has probably received wind of Canada‘s personnel-stretched military so it‘s reluctant to make any requests.

"The United Kingdom would not be asking Canada for something that they couldn‘t deliver," he said.

"So to avoid embarrassment they probably won‘t ask."

But retired major-general Lewis MacKenzie said Canadians shouldn‘t be embarrassed if the British don‘t call - it‘ll simply mean that they‘ve opted for a European force.

MacKenzie said Canada has built its reputation as a capable peacekeeping nation and dismissed critics making a big deal about not being invited.

"We should not be embarrassed at all," he said. "The only thing we‘re missing is getting some of the best office space - dirt for our tents."

Renee Filiatrault, Defence Department spokesman, said details of the stabilization force are still being worked out.

"Everything is open for discussion," she said. "We‘re negotiating with our coalition partners."

Maj. Mike Audette of Land Force Western Area said most of the troops at Edmonton Garrison are on a seven- or 10-day standby to deploy.

"If called, they‘re ready to go," he said.
 
Frankly, I suspect the spin doctors are letting their egos get the better of them ... (I really don‘t get a warm and fuzzy feeling from comments such as "This will blow the socks off the retired amigos").

Personally, I always presumed Canada would have better reasons than pettiness or spite for deploying troops ... and besides - get real - it‘s only a very small battalion - not even a brigade! Taken in the context of NATO, this wouldn‘t blow the socks off a Barbie doll (... which makes me wonder what certain "unnamed officials" were playing with ...)

January 5, 2002
Canadians to join Afghan force
Contingent of up to 900 combat troops ‘will blow socks off‘ defence critics: official

Robert Fife, Ottawa Bureau Chief
National Post

OTTAWA - Canada will contribute between 700 and 900 combat troops to an expanded U.S.-led stabilization force in Afghanistan, senior government officials said last night.

The Canadian soldiers, mostly from the Edmonton-based Princess Patricia‘s Canadian Light Infantry (PPCLI), will not join the first phase of the United Nations-authorized security force being assembled by Britain to guard the Afghan capital of Kabul, sources said.

The Canadian troops will form part of a separate U.S.-led force that will be deployed to other parts of Afghanistan. Details of the deployment are still being worked out by Canadian and U.S. military planners in Tampa, Fla., where General Tommy Franks, commander of U.S. Central Command, is based.

Art Eggleton, the Minister of National Defence, who has been deeply involved in the secret discussions with the Americans, will unveil the details of the agreement on Monday in Ottawa.

"The government will make an announcement on Monday of ground force participation within the next few weeks," a senior official told the National Post. "There will be a substantial contribution somewhere between 700 to 900 [soldiers]. It is going to be big."

Canada had been asked by Britain to send 200 to 300 troops as part of the 17-nation contingent that will act as peacekeepers in Kabul, but this request was rejected. The Canadian government insisted on deploying a self-contained combat-ready battalion trained to work as a cohesive group, particularly in the face of what is likely to be a dangerous situation in Afghanistan.

Officials say the contribution of as many as 900 infantry troops will undermine the criticism of opposition critics and former military officers who have claimed Canada‘s allies would reject Canadian troops because the country‘s military is ill-equipped and poorly trained.

"This will blow the socks off the retired amigos,"one official said, referring to some former officers who argued Canada‘s military had become so weakened by years of underfunding that British and U.S. forces had little use for the Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan.

The PPCLI was put on 48 hours‘ notice on Nov. 14 when Jean Chrétien, the Prime Minister, announced Canada was ready to send 1,000 troops to Afghanistan.

The alert status was subsequently downgraded to seven days during negotiations to create an interim government in the war-ravaged country and while there was jockeying among Britain and other allies over the make-up of the 17-nation, 4,500-troop security force.

Officials say the PPCLI is ready to move on a week‘s notice and a small advance party could go on 48 hours‘ notice.

The stabilization force has a tougher set of rules of engagement than are normally given to UN peace forces. The mission was authorized under Chapter 7 of the UN charter, which covers peace enforcement efforts as opposed to peacekeeping.

Afghanistan‘s interim government yesterday formally endorsed an agreement that will pave the way for the multinational peacekeeping force.

The agreement, signed by Major-General John McColl of Britain and Yunus Qanooni, Afghanistan‘s Interior Minister, is worded to give the British-led International Assistance Security Force the autonomy and authority to protect itself and its six-month mission.

A substantial part of the force is expected to be in place by mid-January.

The agreement represents yet another move forward on the accord reached in Bonn last month by various Afghan factions on how to move their country from war to peace.

But by UN mandate, the peacekeepers will be confined to Kabul and its vicinity, which increasingly seems an island of security in a relatively lawless country.

Maj.-Gen. McColl did not rule out extending the force to other parts of the country, but said it would require a new UN mandate.

Stephanie Bunker, a UN spokeswoman, said there were Taliban fighters and "Arab and other elements" in and around Kandahar and the city was rocked regularly by rocket and gunfire.

In western Afghanistan, the situation south of Herat has become increasingly hazardous. UN personnel are not travelling south of Shindand, about 80 kilometres south of Herat, and gunmen have been disrupting seed distribution in Farah province, she said.

One official in Ottawa said the Canadian soldiers may find themselves handling assignments "above and beyond" traditional peacekeeping roles. He would not elaborate.

Canada already has 40 to 50 members of the JTF-2 anti-terrorist unit working with other special forces in Kandahar. Five Canadian ships are also in the Arabian Sea, escorting U.S. aircraft carriers and amphibious assault ships helping to interdict ships to ensure terrorist suspects don‘t escape the area by sea.

A Canadian Airbus transport has been flying cargo into the region and two CP-140 Aurora maritime patrol planes will help in surveillance operations.

Canada currently has about 1,700 military personnel assigned to Operation Apollo, the Canadian name for the international coalition against terrorism set up after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

++++
(and, another view)
++++

Childish behaviour
By ADAM SCOTT
Saturday, January 5, 2002 – Globe and Mail

Ottawa -- I didn‘t expect anything to be more embarrassing to Canada than the government‘s whining when George W. Bush failed to include us in the list of countries he thanked following Sept. 11. I was wrong. The whining and excuses made following the rejection of Canadian peacekeepers is the most shameful and childish behaviour I‘ve ever seen.

If Canada does end up sending peacekeepers to Afghanistan, it will be due to a patronizing gesture from the British, just as Mr. Bush, in a follow-up statement, patronizingly said that it was unnecessary to thank a brother. He might as well have patted us on the head.

During the planning of the peacekeeping mission, Canada has behaved like a little kid at the neighbourhood ballpark waving his arms and shouting "pick me," despite lacking the skills of the other players and not even having a ball glove. If we weren‘t the little brother of the biggest kid on the block, we wouldn‘t get in the game at all.

Becoming a respected player on the international team requires commitment to skills development, acquisition of appropriate equipment and a willingness to act decisively. Canada just doesn‘t have what it takes, regardless of how loudly we yell "pick me."
 
Seems as though JTF2 is in Afghanistan.

I loved this quote.

Although JTF-2 is almost obsessively secretive about its operations and the identity of its members, other members of the Canadian brigade group were quick to note the arrival late last month of a number of large, bearded and muscular soldiers in combat fatigues stripped of the usual name tags and unit markings.

However, spokesmen for the Canadian contingent would not comment on JTF-2‘s presence on the sprawling, heavily fortified base camp. "We never confirm or deny the presence of these people," said Maj. Roland Lavoie.
Large bearded and muscular soldiers? Okay now I really want to see these guys. They sound like they have their own little look to them, you know what I mean?
 
Mr. McCallum promised to make public the places that JTF-2 was operating -- if nothing else -- after an embarrassing gaffe over the special forces‘ presence in Kandahar, during a 2002 mission to that southern Afghan city, cost his predecessor his job as defence minister.
And all this time I thought old Art lost his job because he gave his girlfriend a high paying patronage consulting job for DND.
 
What a load of crap.....that‘s all I have to say about that!
 
I saw an article on the stars website saying basicly the same thing.They also mentioned that the unit has expanded and split into to sections,"Black ops" and "Green ops".I do remember hearing about this a while ago.

any comments?
 
Is this look anything like the RCR Pioneer Platoon that was in the news about 4 years ago - with a big burly dude with sunglasses and an unkempt,unmilitary ZZ Top beard standing at a checkpoint in Bosnia?
 
I remember those pictures. You have to admit, though, you‘d think twice about running a roadblock with those guys on duty! :eek:
 
Are there no media left in Afghanistan? All they have to do is look around to confirm JTF2‘s presence. I remember in ‘93, there were these dudes walking around camp with loaded weapons(C-8‘s with everything but kitchen sinks hanging off them), long hair, and basically wearing whatever they felt like. Everyone on camp had a good idea who they were. Are the civies in theater that clued out?
 
Staff: look above when Doug said it‘s a load of crap. Doug is IN Kabul right now, and I‘m sure would know if they were there. He would certainly know if a group of strange guys with high-speed weapons and scruffy haircuts showed up out of the blue.
 
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