Jazz removes life vests

[NL_engineer]

The Air Canada vs Jazz comment was directed at Snafu.  Even if Jazz operates under AC's banner, they are still 2 different companies.

I bet Air Canada is a majority shear holder. They may say they are separate; but I bet at the end of the same, Jazz is still controlled out of Air Canada's head office.

 

[aesop081]

Either way Jazz is putting peoples lives before thier profit margin.

You meant that the other way around.

"Jazz is putting its profit margin ahead of peoples lives"

The fact someone thought THIS was an acceptable option is just plain stupid.  

Not only did they think it was acceptable but they know its well within the rules.

But hey who am i to be concerned about the aspects of having my life in someone elses hands without having any say in it.....

You do have a say in it....you said it yourself. Fly another airline or find another way to get where you are going.

 

[Adamant]

Snafu,

Have you ever seen an aircraft not designed to land on water do so?  It's not really pretty, honestly a life jacket is the least of your concerns, just being alive is much higher on the priority list.

As long as they are in TC reg's there is no problem...are they being greedy of course, but so is the way of business.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Air Canada HQ is in Montreal, Jazz in Halifax.  They are more different than you think.

Snafu-Bar.  Tell me how dangerous is it to remove life vests?  

Did you know our pilot trainee and instructors on the Basic Flying Course don't wear LPSV on local training mission?  Did you know they occasionnaly fly over water at low level?  Did you know I never felt in danger by doing so?

 

[Snafu-Bar]

The decision will show up in more lost revenues due to people choosing to fly elsewhere. That will result in the greedmongers taking more away, till there is nothing left.

Air canada is doomed already, their fleet is ready to start falling outta the sky and they are already on financial life support, add in growing competition from the likes of Westjet, it is just another factor in thier attempts to filet the fleet and fly the bones.

Cheers.

 

[armyvern]

If you are an investor, those 2 sentences are one and the same.

Agreed again. But when safety equipment can be removed from an aircraft under the guise of "we have to because of increased operating costs" when my ticket costs already sufficiently cover those operating costs and you're really doing it to ensure every last dime you can squeeze out of that price the consumer pays goes towards personal profiteering ... that's where I get frustrated.

Charge me for my extra bag ... I'll pay.

But cutting safety equipment to milk a couple more nickles and dimes per person into your own personal bank account as "shareholder profit" ... that just seems so unethical to me.

See how much their profit increases the first major flight that crashs into water that has initial survivors who end up drowing because they couldn't stay with the plane while she sunk to the bottom attempting to get their seat cushio detached and end up drowing instead. They'll be sued into bankruptcy while their decision that

"profit is more important than safety features" will have cost human lives. And remember, it isn't the consumer who decided that the cost of that safety equipment versus profit was worth it; it was exactly those who would stand to benefit from the profit who decided their profit was worth more than a safety feature which has indeed already been responsible for saving lives during airline crashs into water. They don't all end up in "all souls lost" ... but they certainly may now with this assinine move. I don't know an Olympic distance swimmer out there who'd consider a 50 nautical mile jaunt to safety, if required, to be an accomplishable task - you can't "float" and you can't "go to sleep" because you've got to "hold on." Not so when in a life jacket.

Eerily, boat oars float too. But minimal safety standards would have us wearing life jackets anyway for exactly the reasons above. They save lives when you end up in the water, especially so at great distances and you find yourself tiring ... they'll still hold you up so at least you had a fighting chance in hell.

 

[armyvern]

Air Canada HQ is in Montreal, Jazz in Halifax.  They are more different than you think.

And, not so different than you insist it would seem:

http://www.flyjazz.ca/english/flyingJazz/reservations.asp

Reservations

All Air Canada Jazz reservations are managed by Air Canada.

Please select the Air Canada logo below to check for available flights and fares and to make flight bookings.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Vern, you say they are making big profits..........those are relative to the amount of money/ capital that it takes to make that money.
Jazz made 27 million in that quarter?..at how much investment? Could they have made a lot more just investing in pathetic Canada Savings Bonds at zero risk?

Your blanket statements lack any sense of balance.

 

[armyvern]

Did you know our pilot trainee and instructors on the Basic Flying Course don't wear LPSV on local training mission?  Did you know they occasionnaly fly over water at low level?  Did you know I never felt in danger by doing so?

Good for you!!

But, in this case -- I'M the consumer. I'M the one paying. How dare you tell me that extra dime in your pocket as profit is worth more than that of myself and my fellow passengers should the worst occur?

And, like I've said before -- it's OCCURED before ... and those lifevests ... saved lives. Just like boats; that's WHY they're there in the first place.

 

[armyvern]

Vern, you say they are making big profits..........those are relative to the amount of money/ capital that it takes to make that money.
Jazz made 27 million in that quarter?..at how much investment? Could they have made a lot more just investing in pathetic Canada Savings Bonds at zero risk?

Your blanket statements lack any sense of balance.

Profit. Their Profits are down. Profits are what you make after deducting those other associated costs you've mentioned.

 

[SupersonicMax]

The decision will show up in more lost revenues due to people choosing to fly elsewhere. That will result in the greedmongers taking more away, till there is nothing left.

Air canada is doomed already, their fleet is ready to start falling outta the sky and they are already on financial life support, add in growing competition from the likes of Westjet, it is just another factor in thier attempts to filet the fleet and fly the bones.

Cheers.

Snafu, again you've shown you gross incomprehension of how airlines work by briging some unfunded arguments.

How is Air Canada's fleet falling out of the sky?  They have to be one of the best maintained in North America.  Air Canada is actually profitable now.

Westjet and Air Canada both have 2 very different buisness models and 2 very different targets.  Air Canada is the only airline in Canada that travels around the world.  Westjet isn't close to doing that.  Their target market is North American.  At best, WJA makes competition for Jazz.  But nothing in Canada yet compares to what AC has to offer destination wise.

Vern:  the equipment will be there when they need it.  This is very old news.  They have been doing it for years on the Dash 8s.  I don't think I've ever read about a crash that the survivors of the ditch drowned because of the lack of life vests.  But I've heard of many crashes where passengers, in a panic moment, inflated their jacket and drowned because they were unable to get out as the plane filled up with water...

The 50 NM is to give time and distance for the pilots to glide back to shore.  Not to crash at 50 NM then swim to shore.  

Aviation is a balance between safety and efficiency.  Efficiency in civilian aviation equates to profitability, which is essential for any company.  Historically, in Canada, I think we have yet to witness a major airline crashing into the water over Canada and people actually surviving.

Vern, re: AC vs JZA their booking system is the same.  Everything at the surface is the same, but deep down it's very much different.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Profit. Their Profits are down. Profits are what you make after deducting those other associated costs you've mentioned.

Umm,....if I have 5 billion worth of investment value and I make 27 million dollars PROFIT,.....I suck.

 

[Snafu-Bar]

I guess i'm too stupid to converse abut topics here. I must sit on the sidelines while superior intellects inwardly spiral amongst thier own gigantic IQ's  

Cheers and enjoy.  :-X

 

[SupersonicMax]

Snafu, I'm not saying you're not smart, I'm just saying you don't understand how airlines work and you are just giving arguments that make absolutely no sense.

Vern:  A little insight on how the AC/Jazz thing work.

AC and Jazz used to be partially owned by a company named ACE Aviation Holdings.  It held many shares in many aviation buisnesses, mostly related to Air Canada.  FYI, 75% of AC is owned by ACE.  Until 2006, it also had most of Jazz's shares, but in 2006, they sold it, along with consiledating most of the other divisions with Air Canada.  It makes Jazz a totally financially independant company.  AC and Jazz share things together and have agrements.  They both share the same pilot union and seniority system for their employees for example.  They also share the same reservation system as you pointed out.  I also believe Jazz's airplanes (CRJs and Dash 8s) are owned by Air Canada.  The similarities are very much superficial and the financial aspect of it is totally separate.

Cheers

Max

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I guess i'm too stupid to converse abut topics here. I must sit on the sidelines while superior intellects inwardly spiral amongst thier own gigantic IQ's  

Cheers and enjoy.  :-X

Okay, thanks.

 

[PMedMoe]

At best, WJA makes competition for Jazz.  But nothing in Canada yet compares to what AC has to offer destination wise.

Not a lot of competition if WJA doesn't stop flying through Toronto on every trip.  :

I was trying to book a flight to Moncton but their flights go from Ottawa to Toronto before flying East.  And then do it again on the way back. 
No thanks, I booked AC for this trip instead.  It was nice because when I did book with them, their flights were cheaper than West Jet.  ;D

 

[armyvern]

Umm,....if I have 5 billion worth of investment value and I make 27 million dollars PROFIT,.....I suck.

You're still rich though aren't you? You're still earning money for your personal use (not for operations etc as that is deducted before you've earned that profit for your personal enjoyment) Still better money in your pocket than, hmmm let's say, the availbility of lifevests on an aircraft that should happen to be landed in a somewhat survivable condition in the water.

That's what Jazz and their shareholders are saying to me with this decision. Better cash in their pocket, than my safety.

 

[aesop081]

You're still though aren't you? Still better money in your pocket than, hmmm let's say, the availbility of lifevests on an aircraft that should happen to be landed in a somewhat survivable condition in the water.

That's what Jazz is saying to me ... and their shareholders.

Operating costs are up....profits are down.

Investors only want profits to do one thing......

Airline either cuts operating costs or raises ticket cost to keep profits where they are.

The life vest again.......The airline is operating withing guidlines established by TC....they are not doing something that is illegal.

Just because i made $1 profit doesnt make it a viable buisness. The return has to be worth the investment. $27M is not what i would consider a good return on the money invested.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Jazz is still following government policy, so I think the problem is with the policy, not with Jazz.   I wonder how many people will actually write to their local MP?

If you are cruising at altitude and need to get down, you will cover the 50 miles within 12 minutes.  Dropping at such a rate where you won't make it to hard ground then the life jacket is a non-issue.   Nice floaty shoes will do just fine, your family will thank you!

 

[aesop081]

I spend my days over the ocean at 1000 ft and below, 1000 miles from shore. Being at less that 50 miles from shore at airline altitude with only one method of flotation (considering the routes JAzz flies)......

BFD