Italian hostage who screamed "Now I‘ll show you how an Italian dies."

[Gunnar]

But then, Australia doesn‘t have the same history as Israel, does it? Israel pushed for independence from Palestine, couldn‘t get it. The Brits gave them "partition", which the Palestinians refused to accept. They tried, on numerous occasions, to drive the Jews into the sea. They lost. They lost so bad they had to move to Jordan or to refugee camps. Now, instead of getting over it, they spend most of their time in UN shelters trying to continue the war by other means. They talk about peace, and peace agreements, while funding the purchase of weapons instead of trying to build their economy and get their own people working.

Did you see the Germans living in refugee camps for 30 years after WWII, vainly trying to push their claims to the Sudetenland, or Danzig which was "taken" from them by the Allies? No. They moved back into their houses or into new ones, and tried to make do with the new political situation. They did not try to win back their wonderful Reich by blowing up schoolchildren and by appealing to the UN "but we have nowhere to live!". Today, Germany is a reunfied economic powerhouse. For the Palestinians, it‘s been 30-40 years. If NOW you have no place to live, its because of CHOICE, not because the Israelis keep driving you out. The Palestinians chose Yasser Arafat and his Fatah party, in spite of the fact that they are regularly busted by Shin Bet for importing arms and weapons, do not have any respect for individual rights, and are merely a gang of thugs with more followers than Hamas at present.... These "temporary refugee camps" are widely known to be places where Palestinians make bombs and suicide bombers.

Are all Palestinians like this? No. I am sure that because every man has individual choice that there exist some people out there who, while brought up in an environment of hatred and intolerance choose to leave the so-called "refugee" camps and get on with their lives. But because they‘re successful and happy, they don‘t make headlines. Because they don‘t ask for handouts, or the intercession of foreign nations in their own squabbles, they don‘t make the news.

Life pays you back with success. If you make good choices, you live well. The Israelis, in spite of the weekly annoyance of some barbarian blowing himself up, live well. Electricity, television, clean running water, one of the finest armed forces in the world. The Palestinians are still living in squalor, off of UN handouts and negotiating in bad faith, hoping for the day when someone will hand them back their country. Ain‘t gonna happen. You can‘t beat a modern, civilized democracy with 12th century values. You can be annoying, but that‘s about it.

Trying to censure Israel or to deny its right to exist IS catering to terrorists, because it suggests that they may be right. They aren‘t.

 

[DogOfWar]

Pull back from Israel? Why? You would throw your hat in with terrorists? Leave the Israelis to the wolves because you feel like giving up allies? Because their freedom and way of life is worth less than your own? The world is at war. Our way of life is under fire and you would give up ground.

 

[casing]

I‘m in complete agreement with Gunnar on this one. In my mind I admire Israel because of the crap they go through. They don‘t put up with much. For the most part, if they need something done they do it and to h*ll with what the rest of the world thinks. Israel does things for their own survival. They are surrounded by peoples that hate them mainly for religious reasons. These peoples do things not for their own survival, but to destroy Israel for being Jewish and for advancing their standard of living despite their enemies.

 

[Infanteer]

Pull back from Israel...never.

Why would we leave a free and democratic nation in a sea of hatred and despotism?

For some reason the western media, the U.N., and many segements of our society have gained a real hard on for Israel in the last while. It bugs me to no end when Israel is condemned for killing terrorists (by our Foreign Affairs Minister), and yet the solution is to "negotiate" with organizations that continue to claim that they will destroy the Jewish state. Why worry about "retaliation" from an organization that wants to push the Jews into the sea? Would we negotiate with Nazi‘s who had the same aims?

Canada should grow a set of balls and jump off the fence. I applaud Bush for his decision to side with the Israelis in the claims of land. Why are Palestinian‘s refugees?

Because they willingly left in 1948 under the belief that Israel would be destroyed.

Tough luck.

And take a look at the land that they claim as a Palestinian state. Land that belonged to Egypt and Jordan before Israel took it from then in another attempt to push a people into the sea.

The world needs to open its eyes. The Arab states have used the Palestinian‘s as their kicking toys to swipe at Israel. Arab states have killed more Palestinians in booting them out of their camps in Jordan and Syria in an effort to send a dissaffected people back into Israel.

The peace movement blames everything on the Zionists. These idiots are so eager to find a cause that they‘ve turned themselves into anti-Semites in their support for Palestine. Don‘t believe me, check it out here.

Arab states, for the most part backwards due to repressive dictators or mullahs (or a combination of both) are failing domestically. In order to deflect problems, the leaders constantly cite Israel as the root for every problem in the Middle East on the Jews. And for the most part, people by this. A significant proportion of Arabs believe the September 11 attacks was a Jewish plot to bring America against Islam.

So, next time the UN Security Council condemns Israel for defending itself, or some media outlet jumps on the bandwagon of pointing out Jewish "atrocites" against "rock-throwing kids", ask yourself if you buy that. There is a clear case of good and evil here, and by sitting on the fence like we are, not only do we give tacit support to a cause that publically states its goal is to destroy a people‘s right to exist, but we send the Israelis a message that they are on their own. That is something I won‘t stand for.

 

[xFusilier]

Perhaps the reason that Israel gets held to a higher standard is the fact that it is a free and democratic nation, and free and democratic nations are expected to have higher moral standards than tinpot dictators.

There will be no peace in Israel until the Likud party realizes that terrorism is a political phenomena that needs a political solution. The Israelis can try to drop a hellfire on every terrorist in the West Bank and they will fail, new terrorists will always sprout up because the reasons that individuals turn to these acts still exists. (joblessness, poverty, lack of basic freedoms (some of which is the fault of the PLO, others are the fault of the Israelis). general hoplessness). Solve these problems and you solve alot of the reason for the sucess of terrorism in the West Bank.

 

[Infanteer]

Perhaps the reason that Israel gets held to a higher standard is the fact that it is a free and democratic nation, and free and democratic nations are expected to have higher moral standards than tinpot dictators.

Easy to say sitting in a free and democratic nation not subjected to daily attacks on the populace.

I never said they get held to a higher standard. I was expressing concern for the fact that media outlets and politicians tend to hold dropping a hellfire on a terrorist who plans suicide attacks on innocent civilians as morally equivlent to blowing up a bus full of sunday shoppers with their children (ie, that they are both wrong).

There will be no peace in Israel until the Likud party realizes that terrorism is a political phenomena that needs a political solution.

Is that necessary? Any person in Israel is accorded full rights, included freedom of worship (unlike any of its neighbours).

I agree with you that Radical zionism within Israel is also a barrier to movement towards peace, but not to the degree of the violence committed by Palestinian terrorists.

What are the political solutions when one side is calling for the destruction of the Jewish state?

Like I said, there is a clear case of good and bad here.

new terrorists will always sprout up because the reasons that individuals turn to these acts still exists. (joblessness, poverty, lack of basic freedoms (some of which is the fault of the PLO, others are the fault of the Israelis). general hoplessness). Solve these problems and you solve alot of the reason for the sucess of terrorism in the West Bank.

Despite the fact that the PLO takes a substantial chunk of foreign aid, its people still live in squalor. This gets blamed on the people of Israel. Just like the Al Qaeda, the head guys of all these organizations are fat cats who have no problem sending some dumb sod out with a dynamite belt in order to further their own ends. So many people buy into what these people tell them.

I think dropping a hellfire on Arafat is the next step into eliminating the terrorist threats in the West Bank.

 

[xFusilier]

never said they get held to a higher standard. I was expressing concern for the fact that media outlets and politicians tend to hold dropping a hellfire on a terrorist who plans suicide attacks on innocent civilians as morally equivlent to blowing up a bus full of sunday shoppers with their children (ie, that they are both wrong).

The reason that the Isrealis get raked over the coals for it, is that the policy of targeted killings runs contrary to international law. Furthermore, if an Israeli helicopter fires a hellfire missle and kills 1 terrorist and 25 innocents, are they not as dead as the 25 Israelis killed in the last bus bombing? It is the Israelis justification of what appears to be any amount of collateral damage with the old line "we are fighting terror" that leads the media to question the claim that the Israelis hold on being the guys in the white hats.

Is that necessary? Any person in Israel is accorded full rights, included freedom of worship (unlike any of its neighbours).

I am not talking about Israeli Arabs and Druze, I am talking about the Palestinians who live in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, they aren‘t going anywhere. The only way to fight Hamas and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade is to eliminate the contiditions that allow them to recruit, and that means eliminating the hopelessness that is present on the streets. Especially in the case of Hamas, as I believe that Hamas has ceased to be just an organization and is now an ideology.

What are the political solutions when one side is calling for the destruction of the Jewish state?

I see this as pretty much a strawman argument. Israel exists, and will always exists. And lets not get idealistic there will still be terrorist attacks after a peace agreement is signed.

Despite the fact that the PLO takes a substantial chunk of foreign aid, its people still live in squalor. This gets blamed on the people of Israel.

Maybe, put Israel does have to take a certain amount of responsibility for the fact that these people require foriegn aid.

Besides there will be not peace in the Middle East until both Sharon and Arafat are gone, they are to much like each other.

 

[casing]

Originally posted by xFusilier:
[qb]Israel exists, and will always exists.[/qb]

This really isn‘t something that is certain. Especially when the opposite of this is an ultimate goal of Israel‘s enemies. And that‘s a big root of the problem. Even if the Arabs managed to eventually become masters over the Israelis they will not be appeased. They will do what they can to eliminate all Israelis and once that is accomplished their sights will turn to the other heathens--mainly democratic and non-Arab nations. The only reason Arafat‘s minions aren‘t sending the suicide bombers against western nations is because Israel is right there in the front yard and is first on the agenda.

As far as I‘m concerned, Israel is in for an eternity of the same battles. Israel has been attacked before and won. If Israel‘s neighbours thought they had any chance at all of wiping out Israel now you can bet they would attack again. Especially with Israel‘s friends busy in Iraq.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Both sides are out to lunch.
One side sends in a bomber to kill himself at a market, the other side launches a cruise missle into a leaders house. A leader who surrounds himself with innocent (well some anyways) civilians.

The only way to stop the violence there is to send in an armed force and take away the weapons and bombs from both sides. This of course will make both sides resist the force thats disarming them. It‘s a big catch 22.

 

[Infanteer]

leader who surrounds himself with innocent (well some anyways) civilians.

The recent attack on Rantisi only killed him and his two bodyguards. Zero collateral damage. If I recall correctly, the Yassin strike took out his entourage, again zero collateral damage.

How can these be considered "illegal targeted killings" when it is a state of open war? It would be no different than the Americans dropping a laser guided bomb on Osama bin Laden, or better yet, using a Predator drone to hit a terrorist car with a hellfire (which we generally regard to be a good thing).

I have the suspicion that the only reason some people differentiate between American anti-terrorism and Israeli anti-terrorism is because they are closet anti-semites or something (not saying anyone here is, talking about more general organizations).

The only way to stop the violence there is to send in an armed force and take away the weapons and bombs from both sides. This of course will make both sides resist the force thats disarming them. It‘s a big catch 22.

Since that solution is totally ludacris I will not even attempt to deal with it.

 

[Jarnhamar]

If they only took out the intended target then i don‘t have an argument. I thought i saw in the news that the missle strikes from israel were taking out civilians just as well as their targets.

I never said it was illegal, just that i don‘t really see either side as being good or bad. To me their both so engrossed in the war that neither side is really interested in peace. They don‘t want to settle, both sides want to "win". It‘s almost like it‘s how they define who they are.

The solution i mentioned is totally ludacris but to me that seems the only way you could actually have peace there. They won‘t play nice so take their toys away.
Then again if that did happen and we gave them hammers and nails to rebuild their homes i‘m sure it wouldn‘t be long before they turned the humanatitarian aid on each other.

 

[48Highlander]

The problem isn‘t that both sides want to "win". The problem is that the Palestinian resistance is composed mainly of terrorists who don‘t take orders from their government, and the Israelis aren‘t willing to put down their weapons as long as the suicide bombings continue. If Israel were willing to cease their own military activities and instead work to rebuild the Palestinian infrastructure and assist Palestinian authorities with hunting down terrorist cells, the problem would be drasticaly reduced within a few years, and eventualy eliminated. However, Israel, is afraid that ceasing military reprisals for bombings would be seen as weakness, and would lead to increased activity by their enemy. I think the only practical solution to their problems would be UN intervention, but I don‘t see that happening any time soon.

 

[casing]

You seriously believe the suicide bombings will end if the Israelis put down their weapons? Well, perhaps you are right. At that stage in the game all the Palestinians would have to do is round em up and walk em into the ocean. No bombs needed to drown people.

 

[48Highlander]

"put down their weapons" is a figure of speech. I‘m not saying they should disarm, just stop making unilateral strikes within Palestinian territory. Like I said, rebuild the Palestinian infrastructure and then work WITH them to root out terorist cells. There will always be militant fanatics who will not accept anything but the outright destruction of Israel, but just like in Iraq and Afghanistan, there are honest people who are willing to cooperate in order to rebuild their country and secure peace and freedom for themselves and their people. Israel‘s current policy only serves to alienate those people.

 

[Jarnhamar]

What about that wall? Are they still trying to throw that up? One stays on one side one onthe other. That might be a pretty good short term solution, no?