• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Israel strikes Hard at Hamas In Gaza- Dec/ 27/ 2008

An interesting read from Prof. Barnett Rubin, in particular the "bigger picture" views of the Israeli-Middle East conflict from a Jewish writer.  Prof. Rubin teaches on Foreign Relations at NYU and is well regarded for his work recent with Afghanistan, where he was involved in helping Afghanistan form its National Development Strategy.  I believe there is no relation between Prof. Rubin and the Barry Rubin quoted in E.R. Campbell's post.

----------

Rubin: Against Holocaust Denail, Against Naqba Denial
Link

'I try to be friendly, I try to be kind.
Now I'm gonna drive you from your home, just like I was driven from mine.
Someday baby you ain't gonna worry po' me any more.'

Bob Dylan, Someday Baby.

May 8, Israeli Independence Day, will mark the 60th anniversary of the founding of the State of Israel, an occasion to be marked in Israel and Jewish communities around the world with celebration. As always, Independence Day is preceded by Holocaust Remembrance Day (May 2) and Yom ha-Zikaron (Memorial Day, on May 7, in memory of those fallen for the state.

May 15 will mark the 60th anniversary of the Naqba (catastrophe), as Palestinians call the founding of Israel and their consequent defeat, expulsion, and exile. Palestinian and other communities will mark the day with mourning, protest, and anger.

The founding of Israel is often justified, at least partly, as reparation for the genocide of European Jews by the German Nazi regime. For many Jews, the creation of this state redeems, if anything can (and in my view it can't) not only that ultimate atrocity, but also the entire history of Jewish suffering and persecution, seen as a prelude to national rebirth.

Of course the Nazi genocide and all the rest of the history of persecution of the Jews does not and cannot provide any moral justification for punishing Palestinian Arabs. (When I mentioned this in a previous post, a commenter listed various incidents in history where Jews have suffered in Muslim countries. Of course such incidents occurred. But Palestinians are no more guilty of the 1840 blood libel of Damascus, not to mention various outbreaks in 12th and 11th century Cordoba and Granada, than they are of the Holocaust. Palestinian Arabs began to attack Jews only after the Zionist movement began its efforts to establish a Jewish state in Palestine.)

Nonetheless, a few anti-Zionists (notably President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran) have resorted to denial of the historical fact of the Holocaust in order to undermine one of the justifications for the Jewish state. Some non-Jews may not understand how painful, threatening, and offensive this denial of history is. It is like denial of our our own experience, which validates our very existence.

I learned of the Holocaust as a child. When I was 12 or 13, a friend's father, all of whose family had been killed, told us sitting on his lawn one night what it felt like to be whipped at Auschwitz. In the Jewish Day School I attended, we saw Nazi documentary footage of the Warsaw Ghetto, including piles of starving bodies. When my grandfather died, my great aunt found letters in Yiddish in the basement informing his father (after whom I am named) of the death of his sisters, who had stayed behind in Balti, Bessarabia. (This area was in Russia when my great-grandfather left it around 1900. It became part of Romania after World War I and the Russian Revolution, and was joined to the USSR as the Bessarabian Soviet Socialist Republic after World War II. Today it is part of the Republic of Moldova. The violent peregrination of ethno-national borders in Eastern-Central Europe is not as irrelevant to this story as may first appear -- the same process is now going on in many other places, Israel-Palestine among them.)

I also learned about Israel and Zionism as a child. I learned that the Jewish settlers in Palestine scrupulously respected the rights of the few Arabs who lived in the mostly abandoned country, buying whatever land they obtained for a fair market price. I learned that the corrupt shaikhs and bureaucrats stirred up the common people against the Jews because they feared the ideology of equality, democracy, and socialism that they were bringing. I learned that the international community recognized the right of Jews to a homeland in establishing the British Mandate over Palestine after the defeat of the Ottomans, but that anti-Semitic British officials favored the Arabs, even while the Jews of Europe were being massacred by Hitler. I learned that in 1948, after the establishment of the State of Israel by the United Nations, and the declaration of Independence by the Yishuv (the political organization of the Jewish settlers in Palestine) the new Israeli government urged all Arabs to remain in their homes, where they would be protected as equal citizens of the State of Israel, but that the reactionary Arab regimes, which were trying to destroy the new state, broadcast repeated calls to the Arabs of Palestine to flee until the Jews were destroyed, and that most of the Arabs carried out this instruction, showing their bad intentions. The Jewish state miraculously survived and then rescued the Jews of the entire Arab and Muslim world from persecution. It brought these communities to Israel, while the Arabs and their supporters refused to accept this exchange of populations. Instead they preferred to use the Palestinian refugees as political tools.

In other words, I learned to deny the Naqba. My subsequent reading and experience have led me to conclude that the account I learned of the founding of Israel, is not much closer to the truth than the claim that the deaths at Auschwitz were mostly due to disease and war conditions. Of course some people in concentration camps did die of disease and war conditions.
Arab leaders certainly exploited the Palestinians for political gain. But the denial of the Naqba that I learned is, I imagine, as painful, threatening, and offensive to Palestinians as denial of the Holocaust is to Jews.

(I am not equating the Holocaust and the Naqba. Murdering an entire population is worse than expelling most of a population from their homes, treating those who remain as second-class citizens, occupying more of their land, and repressing them through military reprisals, mass detentions, blockades, and targeted killings. Racist genocide is worse than nationalist ethnic cleansing. But no action can be justified on the grounds that even worse actions are possible).

This is not an issue for historians. It is one of the core issues blocking a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization. It is the issue that prevents Hamas from offering to recognize Israel. It is the issue that makes Israel resist any recognition, however symbolic, of the right of return of Palestinian refugees. Dr. Mahmoud al-Zahar, a founder of Hamas, referred to this dispute in his recent Op-Ed in the Washington Post. After recounting the killing of his two sons and his son-in-law, he signaled his recognition of the Holocaust by comparing the resistance of Gazans to that of the Warsaw Ghetto. But he added:

    Our movement fights on because we cannot allow the foundational crime at the core of the Jewish state -- the violent expulsion from our lands and villages that made us refugees -- to slip out of world consciousness, forgotten or negotiated away.

Naqba denial is as non-negotiable to Palestinians as Holocaust denial is to Jews.

[But Hamas is a terrorist organization! I can't spend time here exploring all the hypocrisies surrounding the word "terrorist." Suffice it to say that I never heard an American official apply it to the Afghan mujahidin in the 1980s, though their missiles caused far more civilian deaths in Kabul than missiles from Gaza or South Lebanon have in Israel. I am totally opposed to killing civilians for political purposes, either intentionally or because the attacker cannot be bothered to avoid it. But I am also against using that principled opposition to evade accountability for other kinds of crimes.]

We need a common history so that we can have a common future. Here's my outline:

Zionism arose as Jewish nationalism in Central and Eastern Europe in the nineteenth century as ethno-nationalism of other groups threatened the Jews of the Hapsburg and Russian empires. The European struggles over creating nations and states in that region resulted in both World Wars, the Holocaust, the ethnic cleansing of Germans from much of Eastern Europe, the ethnic cleansing of much of Yugoslavia, and mass migrations of many groups to create the more homogeneous states that exist there today. Ideologically, Zionism was one of several alternatives open to the Jews of Europe. The Dreyfus Affair convinced Theodor Herzl (from the Hungarian part of Austria-Hungary) that liberal integration would fail. Some turned to nationalism, and others to socialism. The largest number, including my ancestors, found an apolitical solution in emigration to the U.S. or elsewhere.

Simultaneously, the Ottoman Empire, like its European counterparts, was becoming weakened by international competition and internal nationalist movements. The weakening of the Ottomans opened the possibility for European Jews to settle in Palestine as part of a nationalist movement rather than, as previously, as religious pilgrims. To an extent that those unfamiliar with Jewish texts might not appreciate, the "Land of Israel" occupied and occupies a central place in the Jewish imagination. Three times a day religious Jews prayed for God to return them to the land from which they had been exiled, and in times of national catastrophe, chiliastic or messianic movements had repeatedly formed around a return to the land. Zionism provided a secular national transformation of this cultural pattern, and therefore melded Jewish nationalism (a new phenomenon) with the messianic passion of the return.

Palestinian Arabs (and most of the rest of the world) were not aware of these currents, nor, quite understandably, did they conclude that because of these beliefs they should allow a group of foreigners to form a state on their land. Britain could call on related Biblical narratives in sympathy with the plan for a Jewish National Home in Palestine, though strategic objectives (desire for a friendly population near the Suez Canal) certainly played a role.

Jews were persecuted, even massacred, in much of Europe, but they largely shared the European assumption that Western colonialism represented progress, and that the decision by the League of Nations to award a Mandate over Palestine to Britain, including the creation of a Jewish National Home, was a legitimate and binding decision in international law. In Palestine as elsewhere the subjects of colonial rule had a different perspective.

The creation of Israel was part of the global redrawing of borders, forced migrations, ethnic cleansing, imperial breakdown, and genocide that overwhelmed much of the world during and after World War II. As the Jewish state was established in Palestine, resulting in war and expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Arabs, a Muslim state, Pakistan, was carved out of India, leading to far bloodier wars and many more deaths. Germans were expelled from Czechoslovakia, Poland, and elsewhere, by virtue of their affiliation to the former occupier. Serbs, Croats, Albanians and others in and around Yugoslavia started the process of ethnic cleansing that continues today. The USSR seized territory from all the states to its west, with huge concomitant population transfers. These are just a few random examples. The formation of ethno-nationalist states through violence and population transfer was the rule rather than the exception -- which did not make it any more legitimate or tolerable for its victims.

In this general violent upheaval of nationalism, Jewish survivors were not welcome in their former homes and were even massacred at times on their return. The victorious countries of World War II, including the US, still emerging from both Depression and wartime deprivation, were not willing to open their borders to millions of refugees. As after other historical incidents of disaster (the various Jewish Naqbas) a movement (with messianic components such as the teachings of Rav Kook) arose around the return to the land, this time taking the form of nationalism. What happened in Palestine was nothing unusual -- it was happening all over the world. National movements recruited desperate, idealistic, devoted, cruel, thoughtful, and thoughtless people in service of creating states on territories by excluding others. After all they had been through, the Jews would not rely on anyone else for their security, and if their desperate and heroic act of national revival created other victims, it was up to the rest of the world to compensate them.

Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims, and others in the colonial world narrated these events as part of a different story. The European powers that won the war were also the major colonial powers and used their domination of the United Nations and the world scene to create a state in Palestine without consulting its inhabitants, who naturally resisted. Some saw this as part of an ongoing struggle of Muslims against their enemies, who aimed to destroy them.

Perhaps if the Arab states, still emerging from colonial domination themselves, had been stronger and had more resources, they could have reached an agreement that would include absorption of the Palestinian refugees, as Germany accepted the repatriated Germans or India and Pakistan accepted each others' refugees. But these countries were insecure and poor themselves. Their populations, and most of all, the Palestinians themselves would not accept it. Nor was there any reason that they should. No people is obliged to surrender its sovereignty and security to redress wrongs committed by others. Every person has the same individual human rights that the world affirmed (if hypocritically) largely in response to the Holocaust itself. Among these basic rights, included in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (passed by the UN General Assembly on December 10, 1948) is the "right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country." There is no exception for Palestinian refugees. But it wasn't enforced for Jews or many others. Why for them? But this is not a question likely to interest Palestinians expelled from their homes and still living under occupation or as refugees 60 years later.

That was the "foundational crime" of which Dr. al-Zahar wrote. I propose a reframing: the Jews and the Palestinians are joint victims of the Holocaust and the Naqba, of the history of nationalism, racism, and colonialism, from which we are all suffering. They should jointly demand of the rest of the world assistance and support in finding a way out of this tragedy.

Therefore: no to Holocaust denial, no to Naqba denial. There are still plenty of difficult issues to resolve. But let's start with the tragic truth.

 
Looks like the IDF is getting ready to move into Gaza prepping the battlefield by hitting 40 targets with arty fire for the first time. Hamas control of Gaza is weakening with mass desertions of Hamas foghters - mainly teenagers who have decided to go home to their parents. An Israeli invasion may not be as bloody an affair as one would have thought. I think the Gazans are fed up with Hamas and may settle for peace and economic  stability.
 
That was the "foundational crime" of which Dr. al-Zahar wrote. I propose a reframing: the Jews and the Palestinians are joint victims of the Holocaust and the Naqba, of the history of nationalism, racism, and colonialism, from which we are all suffering. They should jointly demand of the rest of the world assistance and support in finding a way out of this tragedy

G2G:

I agree with everything that Prof. Rubin says right up until that word "demand".  From that I infer that he considers Jews and Palestinians conjoint victims to whom the rest of the world owes a debt.  And yet at the same time he invokes the pre-holocaust history of Zionism as a cause of the current problems - basically saying that Jews were every bit as Nationalist, Racist and Colonialist as the Arabs and everybody else.  Racism-Nationalism-Tribalism are all expressions of collectivity beyond the nuclear family and as such are all largely fabrications.  Edit: They require myths to sustain them as unifying beliefs.  Colonialism was, and is, driven by the need to secure resources and the need to impose order.

For Lawrence's Arabs their desire was to break down the Ottoman borders and taxes and laws and impose their own regime, more convivial to their needs and wants, over a territory that suited their lifestyle.  Herzl's Zionists, Rubin's Bessarabians and Hitler's Germans were all engaged in the same pursuit as were Churchill's Brits and Napoleon's Franks.

The only "guiltless" parties are those inhabitants of large cities that have never moved......Of course, on the other hand, they are the same people that sit home and demand that other people bring them cheap food and water,  heat their homes and remove their wastes and then hire armies to enforce their will on the recalcitrant that don't see their need as being greater than their own.

And so it goes......Lex Talionis.

The only fix is from within the struggle - and it is always only likely to be temporary.  It is possible to impose order but given that the universe tends to move from order to chaos it requires constant inputs of energy and effort to counter the chaos.  Thus soldiers will never be out of work.  It is possible to find ordered states that may not require as much energy to achieve, but energy will always be required. Thus soldiers will never be out of work.  The preconditions that allow a specific ordered state to exist will always change and mutate over time requiring new ordered states to be imposed.  Thus soldiers will never be out of work.
 
2nd Hamas leader killed in Israeli air strike
Last Updated: Saturday, January 3, 2009 | 9:45 AM ET CBC News

An Israeli air strike in the Gaza Strip has killed a senior commander of Hamas, the armed wing of the political group said Saturday.

Hamas said Abu Zakaria al-Jamal died from wounds sustained in an Israeli air strike overnight. He was the second top Hamas figure to die in the week-long offensive in the Gaza Strip.

Earlier in the week, another Hamas leader, Nizar Rayyan, was killed along with several family members when the Israeli air force bombed his house.

The deaths were reported as Israel's offensive against Gaza's Islamist militant rulers entered a second week and Palestinian militants fired more rockets into southern Israel.

About 430 Palestinians have been killed in the offensive. Meanwhile, four Israelis have died in Hamas rocket attacks.

Israeli warplanes and gunboats struck more than two dozen Hamas targets Saturday, including weapons storage facilities and training centres.

There were tentative signs that the current phase of fighting may be nearing an end. Most of the air strikes targeted empty buildings and abandoned sites, suggesting Israel may be running out of targets.

Leaflets warn Palestinians to leave
The Israeli army has dropped thousands of leaflets over Gaza, warning people to leave their homes before targeted bombing raids.

Ground troops have assembled on the border, waiting for a signal to invade Gaza, but international ceasefire efforts have also gained momentum.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and several Arab foreign ministers were flying to New York over the weekend to urge the UN Security Council to adopt an Arab draft resolution that would condemn Israel and demand a halt to its bombing campaign in Gaza.

The United States, however, said the draft is "unacceptable" and "unbalanced" because it makes no mention of halting the Hamas rocketing of southern Israel, which led to the Israeli offensive.

Robert Serry, the UN Special Co-ordinator for the Middle East Peace Process, said Hamas rockets are reaching 40 kilometres into Israel.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy is visiting the region next week and President George W. Bush and UN chief Ban Ki-moon have both spoken in favour of an internationally monitored truce.

In his weekly radio address, Bush blamed the fighting in Gaza on Hamas, accusing militants of waging a campaign of violence against Israel with little regard for Palestinian civilians.

"In response to these attacks on their people, the leaders of Israel have launched military operations on Hamas positions in Gaza," Bush said. "As a part of their strategy, Hamas terrorists often hide within the civilian population, which puts innocent Palestinians at risk."

Chris Gunness, spokesman for the UN Relief and Works Agency, said damage to Gaza's infrastructure is creating a humanitarian crisis.

"Life has become intolerable for civilians," he told CBC News. "This mad bombing has simply got to stop. It's as simple as that."

About 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza are living under a blockade by neighbouring Israel and Egypt, curbing supplies of fuel needed to run generators.

The Israeli air strikes have further crippled the economy, although Israel had increased its humanitarian aid to the territory.

With files from the Associated Press
 
Israeli ground troops enter Gaza Strip
Updated Sat. Jan. 3 2009 2:01 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff


A column of Israeli military vehicles and soldiers have entered the Gaza Strip, after artillery units and warplanes hammered the border area and attacked more Hamas targets.

According to Israeli defence officials, 10,000 troops had gathered at the edge of Gaza, including tanks and special operations units.

"We will do all that is necessary to provide a different reality for southern Israel, which has been under constant attacks for the past eight years," Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told Channel 2 TV.

Israeli artillery units joined the offensive in Gaza on Saturday, as planes dropped bombs on more than 40 Hamas targets. A mosque was also damaged, killing 10 people and injuring 33.

The conflict began on Dec. 27, with Israel saying it would no longer tolerate rocket attacks from Hamas on its border towns -- attacks that had intensified after the end of a truce agreement.

Leading up to the ground invasion, Israel dropped leaflets in downtown Gaza City to warn people to stay off the streets.

The strike on the mosque, which is located in the northern town of Beit Lahiya, left seven of the injured in critical condition. Some reports have said children were at the mosque.

It is unclear if the dead are Hamas militants or civilians. According to The Associated Press, the mosque is named after a founder of Hamas who was killed by Israel in 2004.

After nightfall Saturday, an artillery shell hit a house in Beit Lahiya and wounded a number of people.

According to Israeli officials who spoke on condition of anonymity, some army commanders are concerned the ground invasion could lead to heavy casualties, while others feel that the air offensive has already dealt Hamas a heavy blow.

Meanwhile, world leaders have called on both Israel and Hamas to agree to an internationally-monitored truce.

On Saturday, Israel targeted weapons storage facilities, training centres and the homes of two Hamas leaders.

The air strikes also struck the American International School, which is considered the most prestigious school in Gaza. The educational institution teaches an American curriculum in English, but is not connected to the U.S. government.

The strike destroyed the main building and killed a guard.

On Friday, Israel allowed nearly 300 Palestinians with foreign passports to flee the region.

Israeli troops entered the Gaza Strip after it appeared the latest air offensive had lost some steam, hitting more benign targets such as empty and abandoned buildings.

The offensive has caused considerable damage to Gaza's infrastructure. Air strikes have knocked out power and water in many areas, which has raised concerns of a pending humanitarian disaster.

Maxwell Gaylard, the UN humanitarian co-ordinator for the Palestinian Territories, said the offensive has wounded about 2,000 people in the last week.

"There is a critical emergency right now in the Gaza Strip," Gaylard told reporters.

Israel disputes this, but has increased the shipment of goods into Gaza.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy will visit the region this week, while U.S. President George Bush and UN head Ban Ki-moon have both come out in favour of an internationally monitored truce.

International pressure

Speaking at the United Nations in New York, Ban encouraged world leaders to step up efforts to establish a ceasefire that would be enforced by international monitors. He also suggested that an international force could offer protection to Palestinian civilians.

On Friday, Bush called the rocket attacks launched by Hamas an "act of terror" and said that a peace deal would have to include monitors to stop the smuggling of weapons into Gaza.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and several other Arab foreign ministers were scheduled to fly to New York this weekend to speak to the UN Security Council.

The group hopes the council will adopt an Arab draft resolution condemning Israel and demanding an end to the air strikes.

The U.S. has called the resolution, which should be debated by the council on Monday, "unacceptable" and "unbalanced" because it does not include a guarantee that Hamas will halt its rocket attacks against Israel.

The air strikes have killed more than 400 Palestinians, and 25 per cent of them may have been civilians, according to the UN. Four Israelis have also been killed by rocket attacks.

With files from The Associated Press

 
tomahawk6 said:
Looks like the IDF is getting ready to move into Gaza prepping the battlefield by hitting 40 targets with arty fire for the first time. Hamas control of Gaza is weakening with mass desertions of Hamas foghters - mainly teenagers who have decided to go home to their parents. An Israeli invasion may not be as bloody an affair as one would have thought. I think the Gazans are fed up with Hamas and may settle for peace and economic  stability.


Where they can remain in relative safety and, once the Israelis leave, from which they can rejoin Hamas - good as new.

I suspect the IDF will meet little resistance - a few rock throwing children, the occasional sniper, maybe an RPG now and again. They will not find a main force to engage and destroy because the Hamas 'bench strength' is at home, eating Mom's chickpeas and olives.

Unless the IDF decides to round up tens hundreds of thousands of teen-agers - and the do what with/to them? - the invasion will be, largely, pre-election and pre-cease fire window dressing.
 
Video about the myths of the Mid East conflict.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfiev_lk5_A&eurl
 
...with more links to resources below quote.

"Second Stage of Operation Cast Lead Begins"
The Minister of Defense, Ehud Barak, gave a statement regarding the newly implemented second stage of Operation Cast Lead: “A few hours ago, Israeli ground forces entered the Gaza Strip as part of Operation Cast Lead against the Hamas terrorists, their affiliates, and their infrastructure in Gaza.

So far, the Israel Defense Forces have dealt an unprecedented heavy blow to Hamas. In order to complete their mission, we have now launched the ground operation.

I have said all along that our military activities will widen and deepen as much as needed. Our aim is to force Hamas to stop its hostile activities against Israel and Israelis from Gaza, and to bring about a significant change in the situation in southern Israel.
(....)
On Saturday evening (Jan.3), IDF forces began implementing the second stage of Operation Cast Lead. Ground forces have begun to maneuver within the Gaza Strip.
"The objective of this phase of the operation is to intensify the heavy blow already dealt to Hamas and to take control of area from where most of the rocket attacks against Israel originate, in order to reduce those rocket attacks," says the IDF Spokesperson, Brigadier General Avi Benayahu.

The IDF Spokesperson emphasizes that this stage of the operation will further the goals of Operation Cast Lead as communicated: To strike a direct and hard blow against Hamas while increasing the deterrent strength of the IDF, in order to bring about an improved and more stable security situation for residents of southern Israel in the long now term.  "Stage two of Operation Cast Lead has been launched to support our central goals which are to deal a heavy blow to the Hamas terror organization, to strengthen Israel's deterrence, and to create a better security situation for those living around the Gaza Strip that will be maintained for the long term," states Brig. Gen. Avi Benayahu

A large number of IDF forces are taking part in this stage of the operation including infantry, tanks, engineering forces, artillery and intelligence, along with the support of the Israel Air Force, Israel Navy, Israel Security Agency and other security agencies.

The operation is in accord with the decisions of the Security Cabinet. This stage of the operation is a part of the IDF's overall operational plan, and will continue on the basis of ongoing situational assessments by the IDF General Staff.

The forces participating in the operation have been highly trained and were prepared for the mission over the long period that the operation was planned. The Commander of the operation is Maj. Gen. Yoav Galant, GOC Southern Command.

The IDF and the Home Front Command has taken the necessary steps to protect the civilian population. All residents of Southern Israel are requested to follow the guidelines of the Home Front Command as communicated via the media.

The IDF Spokesperson wishes to reiterate that the residents of Gaza are not the target of the operation. Those who use civilians, the elderly, women and children as human shields are responsible for any and all injuries to the civilian population. Anyone who hides a terrorist or weapons in his house is considered a terrorist.

Based on a situational analysis, The IDF is taking steps to raise the level of alert for its forces in other areas of the country.

More on link

Some more links for news/information, in no particular order:
 
WRT the currrent Gaza situation.

I thought I'd take the temperature of what www.islamicsydney.com had to say. When I go here, I always try to go in with an open mind.

Lots of topics to ponder, but some things alarm me, and this one of them.

I know opinions are just that, but to read whats going on in the minds of young musims in Sydney Australia, does draw me some concern, and I am happy I left Sydney in 2005 for Queensland.

Here is some quotes which you will find:

1. "QUOTE (Urdu @ Jan 4 2009, 03:24 PM)
I wish the armies of the muslim countries would band together and fight off Israel, why have everyone except the jihadis abandoned them? Are muslim countries so scared of America that they can't get together for the sake of defending their brothers and sisters in Islam?

2. "YES!.. They are cowards. May Allah will the destruction of Israel. Ameen. "

3. Today, 11:55 AM Post #13
Group: Brothers
Posts: 5,540
Joined: 26-Jan 04
From: Sydney
Member No.: 720

QUOTE (Yehudit @ Jan 4 2009, 04:29 AM)
"....There's only one grievance and Hamas is open about it. Israel's very existence.

Err..Israel's very existence is an occupation. "

IMHO, what a mess down there.

Here ya go...http://muslimvillage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=48621
 
tomahawk6 said:
Video about the myths of the Mid East conflict.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfiev_lk5_A&eurl

Video about the myths of the Mid East conflict.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrieBhaGgHM

Regards.

 
Tourza, I don't know your intentions on posting these video links, but I will say those Hamas kids videos are the most sickest thing I have ever seen when it comes to the so called 'education' of children.

Preaching hatred from the get go into the minds of toddlers through the TV. No wonder the youth in the region are so bent and twisted and so full of hate, pounded in to them using Mickey Mouse and other kid friendly characters. That on top of whatever they are taught in school, and at home by their parents, makes an ongoing generation after generation hell bent for leather of fueled hatred towards Israel.

These videos are par with The Nazi films/books on their 'education' of German children from the 1930's to the demise of their regime.  Overall these Hamas videos most disturbing to say the least, and puts a whole new meaning to Disney and Sesame Street, adn how these characters can be used for both good (the alphabet and basic learning) and evil (to the promotion of pure hatred).

These ideals only re-inforce that Hamas and their supporters must be wiped out at all costs!

Hamas is as bad as the Nazi regime or worse. Anyone who supports such hatred or a group that does, has no place in todays society.


OWDU

 
Today's complete entry from my buddy's e-diary, himself an IDF vet and the father of an IDF soldier:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day 9 of “Operation Cast Lead”

Unless you are living under a rock of very large size you know that yesterday evening the IDF ground pounders went in to hit Hamas face to face. This means Infantry, Combat Engnr.s; etc the local news has been on all night and every mother who has a kid in the army didn’t sleep a wink. It started with the Artillery Corps. Doing their thing.   Firing pin point and raising hell like only a true “Red Leg” can. (Ok I’m biased because I was Arty).

What you don’t hear on the news is something that I’ve been harping on over and over through the years and some folks say I’m just full of sh** but today it’s in print and it is out there for all to see, Palestinian on Palestinian violence! Violence so great that it makes even my thick skin crawl and makes us wonder who are these f’n animals?

THE FULL STORY

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733155685&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Hamas moves on Fatah 'collaborators'

Jan. 4, 2009
Khaled Abu Toameh , THE JERUSALEM POST

The Hamas government has placed dozens of Fatah members under house arrest out of fear that they might exploit the current IDF operation to regain control of the Gaza Strip.

The move came amid reports that the Fatah leadership in the West Bank has instructed its followers to be ready to assume power over the Gaza Strip when and if Israel's military operation results in the removal of Hamas rule.

Fatah officials in Ramallah told The Jerusalem Post that Hamas militiamen had been assaulting many Fatah activists since the beginning of the operation last Saturday. They said at least 75 activists were shot in the legs while others had their hands broken.



OK now they are “kneecapping” folks! Acting like the old IRA and making the Mafia look like a bunch of ***** cats.

Wisam Abu Jalhoum, a Fatah activist from the Jabalya refugee camp, was shot in the legs by Hamas militiamen for allegedly expressing joy over the IDF air strikes on Hamas targets.

"Hamas is very nervous, because they feel that their end is nearing," a senior Fatah official said. "They have been waging a brutal campaign against Fatah members in the Gaza Strip."



Things are getting worse, and you will see so in the following.

Meanwhile, sources close to Hamas revealed over the weekend that the movement had "executed" more than 35 Palestinians who were suspected of collaborating with Israel and were being held in various Hamas security installations.

The sources quoted Hamas officials as saying that the decision to kill the suspected collaborators was taken out of fear that Israel might try to rescue them during a ground offensive. The officials claimed that at least half of the victims were killed by relatives of Palestinian militiamen who were killed as a result of information passed on to Israel by the "collaborators."



Now it’s looking like the last days of the “Third Reich” when they started hanging folks on the street just because they knew it was over.

I wonder how fat a$$ Rosanne Barr would react to this type of violence on the side of her heroes and possibly her last fans?

This isn’t the first time this type of violence has happened in the areas but it is a landmark as it isn’t directed at the Christian Arabs, like it has been over the years. Hell even on Christmas day when the local Christians were allowed to live the strip to celebrate the holyday the Hamas lobbed a mortar shell into the building where they sat waiting for clearance from the IDF to enter Israel. Lucky for them a sort of Christmas miracle happened and the shell was a dud as if it had gone off there would have been close to 300 less Christians for them to torture after the holyday.

I wonder why the world press forgets to mention this kind of stuff. I wonder why when we blow up a mosque they forget to mention that the Mosque was housing weapons.  How come the people who protest against Israel’s defensive actions on the streets of every country in the world weren’t out there protesting the 8 long years that the people living in southern Israel were being shelled   each and every day? Where were the burning flags of Hamas and Palestine? Where were the outrage and hate?

This too makes me wonder.  This too makes me want to puke!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks Rob, take care and the next time we see each other the GoldStar is on me !

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
 
Regretable as it is that this whole mess started in the first place, the Idea that Fatah members are making Hamas worried enough to arrest and or kill them may be the "End Game " plan that may end this war.  I'm thinking that now Israel has reached the Med and split the area in two might not this be the time to start bringing in the convoys of food and water and/or let Jordan set up a field hospital for civilians? Win the hearts and minds so to say.  Or is it still too soon.
 
Or is it still too soon. (?)

No it isn't.  It has been happening for a while now.  Google is your friend.

...Israel let some 100 trucks carrying humanitarian supplies from Jordan, Turkey and international aid groups into the Gaza Strip via the Kerem Shalom border crossing on Tuesday.

In addition, five new ambulances given by Turkey were allowed into the Strip.

A Jordanian diplomat said 21 Jordanian army doctors and four field hospitals would be allowed to enter on Wednesday, though Israeli officials could not immediately confirm that.

Source  Dec 30, 2008

Israel to allow 40 aid trucks into Gaza 


www.chinaview.cn  2008-11-26 17:23:18      Print


    GAZA, Nov. 26 (Xinhua) -- Israel will open a border crossing into Gaza Strip Wednesday to allow vital humanitarian aid in, Palestinian officials said.

    "The Israeli side told us late at the night that Kerem Shalom crossing will be partially open to allow 40 trucks of food and aid in," said Raed Fatouh, head of a private sector company that liaises the cargo flow into Gaza.

    20 of the trucks carry aid for international relief agencies and the rest carry flour, frozen meat and dairy products imported by private companies, Fatouh said.

    Israel will also open Karni crossing in eastern Gaza city to allow limited shipment of wheat and animal fodder in, he added.

    On Tuesday, Israel closed Kerem Shalom crossing in southeast Gaza Strip only one day after allowing some aid in.

    Israel has been sealing off the Hamas-controlled territory, home to 1.5 million Palestinians since November 5th after a new wave of violence. 15 Palestinian militants were killed since then and the armed groups resumed rocket attacks at Israel, rocking a shaky ceasefire brokered by Egypt in June.
 

Source 26 Nov 2008

I do hope you're not relying on people supplying you with info.  Sometimes you have to go find it yourself.

 
About the only way for Israel to win Palestinian hearts and minds would be for the entire population of Israel to form up 20 abreast, and march themselves into the Med.
 
The IDF has actually cut the Strip into three parts and its way too soon for humanitarian aid,maybe when the shooting subsides. Israel has stated they are not opposed to the palestinians, just the terrorists in their midst.
I think it will be interesting to see how many "foreign" fighters are killed or captured. There were some Quds Force people in Gaza that if taken alive will keep the Shin Bet/Mossad/Aman folks busy.
 
Kat Stevens said:
About the only way for Israel to win Palestinian hearts and minds would be for the entire population of Israel to form up 20 abreast, and march themselves into the Med.

Then they would complaining and wanting aid to help clean up the beaches and renovate all those empty houses....tsk tsk.....
 
Imagine the crap that would hit the fan if thy captured IRGC troops helping Hamas.  How long before they'd go after Iran or Syria?
 
thunderchild said:
Imagine the crap that would hit the fan if thy captured IRGC troops helping Hamas.  How long before they'd go after Iran or Syria?

I highly doubt any uniformed or easily identified members of any foreign armed force will be found.
 
What do you guys think about IDF using Willy-Pete shells on Gaza City? I was under the impression that WP is pretty indiscriminate, and using it in urban areas seems irresponsible.
 
Back
Top