Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)

[Edward Campbell]

I really can not bring myself to like this lady. The premise she uses to assert Islam is inherently evil, if used on all other religions would create the same result, that they are all evil.

She also confuses culture and religion, which sad to say almost everyone does, Muslim and non-Muslim. Also her ideas of a "reformation" in Islam, would pretty much make all Muslims, non-Muslim and she does not realize that other religions stress the same ideals Islam does or she ignores the fact a religion can stress those ideals and not be violent... like most Muslims already do.

She seems to be of a mind that inherently all Muslim Scholars teach bigotry and intolerance which is not the case, it is only the extremists that do. She also refuses to allow for other factors in the global terrorism realm, she also refuses to acknowledge how small the percentage of terrorists are. Now due to technological advances just a couple terrorists can do a lot of damage yes, but because a small percent of Muslims do a lot of damage does not make the majority terrorists or the religion sympathetic to it.

Islamic teachings are quite similar to orthodox/catholic teachings or orthodox jewish teachings etc. So if Islam is evil, then they all are too. Also Islam is not against the west, that narrative has just been pushed by the extremes in certain groups.. like daesh and the right wing etc many Muslims think that the west and Islam can be reconciled, hell I have already done it fine.

Abdullah

You've hit one of the nails squarely on the head. Many cultures are retarded, medieval, misogynistic things and they need reformation and enlightenment, from within, or they need to be, forcibly, tossed upon history's dung heap.

Culture and religion are intertwined, often closely, but they are not one and same. Some religions try to be all things to all people ... many peoples in many cultures (civilizations if you want to use Sam Huntington's notions) have rejected that and have decided, despite the protestations of religious leaders that church and state must be separated. I am content that some people believe otherwise but I believe that any attempt to bring religion and government together must be resisted with force and even violence.

I don't know enough about any religion to pronounce any of them evil ... or good, for that matter; although the Taoists seem far, far less harmful than most.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Religion is birthed by culture; and cultures adapt religions, they do not simply adopt them.

Most of the inherent strengths and weaknesses of a culture will eventually end up in its primary religion(s).  If a religion is created or adapted as a political tool to impose unification on disparate peoples, it will tend to be violent and tyrannical.

 

[Nikola Canada]

I really can not bring myself to like this lady. The premise she uses to assert Islam is inherently evil, if used on all other religions would create the same result, that they are all evil.

Yeah, because Buddhism is all about violence and child marriage...

She also confuses culture and religion, which sad to say almost everyone does, Muslim and non-Muslim.

Well I'm glad you are such an expert on the topic, one who knows something the majority of muslims don't even know! I guess they are all just ignorant of your true understanding of their religion.

Also her ideas of a "reformation" in Islam, would pretty much make all Muslims, non-Muslim

From what I can tell, her main reformational focus is against "theologically sanctioned violence" for offenses such as homosexuality, adultery, blasphemy, apostasy, as well as the scriptural justification for what we call terrorist attacks. If removing these things from Islam would make all muslims "non-muslim" in your opinion, that really speaks volumes.

and she does not realize that other religions stress the same ideals Islam does or she ignores the fact a religion can stress those ideals and not be violent... like most Muslims already do.

She seems to be of a mind that inherently all Muslim Scholars teach bigotry and intolerance which is not the case, it is only the extremists that do. She also refuses to allow for other factors in the global terrorism realm, she also refuses to acknowledge how small the percentage of terrorists are. Now due to technological advances just a couple terrorists can do a lot of damage yes, but because a small percent of Muslims do a lot of damage does not make the majority terrorists or the religion sympathetic to it.

She clearly names Muslim scholars who are trying to reform Islam from within, and also clearly states that the majority of Muslims are peaceful. She just rightly points out that the theological basis for the "fundamentalists" are very much justified by the foundational materials of Islam (ie the Quran and the Hadith).

Islamic teachings are quite similar to orthodox/catholic teachings or orthodox jewish teachings etc. So if Islam is evil, then they all are too.

Yes, and so if they are all evil does that make it ok? Basic logical fallacy. Saying that many of the bad things within islam are also within Christianity or Judaism doesn't justify the fact that Islam sanctions bad things. In fact that's a given, since they are all Abrahamic religions and basically the same in essence.

Also Islam is not against the west, that narrative has just been pushed by the extremes in certain groups.. like daesh and the right wing etc many Muslims think that the west and Islam can be reconciled, hell I have already done it fine.

Abdullah

Based on your posts, I sincerely question the validity of your self-declared reconciliation. From what I recall, you're an ex-baptist who converted to Islam and you live in BC, Kamloops to be specific. Aren't there only like a few hundred Muslims there? I think there are about 80-90 thousand Muslims in all of BC. I highly doubt you have the authority to speak about a proper interpretation of Islam.

But who am I? Just a kid born and raised in the heart of Toronto (where there are over 425,000 Muslims), grew up in a very Muslim area (and I mean like hundreds of people walking around in niqab and thawb to and from giant mosques), went to school with mostly Muslims all my life, had many as friends and from all over the world too (mostly Pakistan, India, Somalia, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Egypt, and Iraq). Met and befriended tons of Muslims at the University of Toronto (also from all over the Muslim world, this time from UAE, Saudi, Oman, Yemen, and Jordan). I even converted at one point myself (long story). I got a Muslim name (Abdurrahman, basically the same name you got), prayed 5 times a day, studied classical and modern standard Arabic, all that jazz. But you know what, the deeper I got into it the more I realized I made a mistake. I started to realize that many of the Muslim kids I met at UofT didn't want to go back to their countries, fearing they would be killed for the things they did in university. I realized how many of them literally feared for their lives over things like being gay, doing drugs, making fun of Islamic topics such as the history of the texts and the prophet. There were many things like that which pushed me away, but the main one was the realization that so many Islamic countries banned age of consent laws as "un-Islamic" because in Islam the age of consent is when a girl hits puberty (ie when she has her period, ie between the ages of 8-15. Some scholars even say that the first sign of puberty is when the breasts develop, which is often 2 years before a girl has her period). That was the final straw for me, and I've completely done a 180 on the topic of Islam since then.

I sincerely hope you do the same, and until then, I hope you're waiting a LOONG time for that medical. 

 

[Journeyman]

..... until then, I hope you're waiting a LOONG time for that medical.

Given your newfound hatred of all things Muslim, I suspect that you may have some difficulties with some expectations that are highly regarded in the Canadian military, those being tolerance and respect.  As it is, you will have wasted a number of people's time -- recruiters, instructors, your unit's staff -- once you are identified as an administrative burden, and go through the process of kicking you out.

As such, I hope you experience an equally long recruiting process, possibly allowing you to mature enough to avoid wasting the valuable time of these military personnel.

 

[AbdullahD]

Yeah, because Buddhism is all about violence and child marriage...

There are Budhists out there who advocate for those things, so using her premise and your qualifiers.. they are too. But, I do not personally believe that. Just because some people in a religion advocate for certain things within that religion, does not, in any way, mean that is what that religion is about.

Well I'm glad you are such an expert on the topic, one who knows something the majority of muslims don't even know! I guess they are all just ignorant of your true understanding of their religion.

Where did I ever claim to be an expert? I am not one, but I am friends or on friendly terms with 20+ different Muslim scholars, who I argue are experts. I have the ability to contact scholars on multiple continents and many more countries, if I need to, to double check my information.

From what I can tell, her main reformational focus is against "theologically sanctioned violence" for offenses such as homosexuality, adultery, blasphemy, apostasy, as well as the scriptural justification for what we call terrorist attacks. If removing these things from Islam would make all muslims "non-muslim" in your opinion, that really speaks volumes.

In Islam, there are certain things that you have to believe in to be considered Muslim. I do believe in another post on this site I have an expanded opinion on this particular point, I suggest you go read it.

She clearly names Muslim scholars who are trying to reform Islam from within, and also clearly states that the majority of Muslims are peaceful. She just rightly points out that the theological basis for the "fundamentalists" are very much justified by the foundational materials of Islam (ie the Quran and the Hadith).

See my other posts on her, she is using verses out of context and some  hadiths that I believe do not even exist to make her arguement. So yea if you only use one sentence of a paragraph or half a sentence, or one paragraph from a page etc, it becomes very easy to twist things. But, that does not make it right.

Yes, and so if they are all evil does that make it ok? Basic logical fallacy. Saying that many of the bad things within islam are also within Christianity or Judaism doesn't justify the fact that Islam sanctions bad things. In fact that's a given, since they are all Abrahamic religions and basically the same in essence.

I do believe I have never said that 'bad' things exist in Judaism, Christianity and Islam. I believe you are arguing that, I am arguing that her using isolated verses and hadiths out of context etc etc can make anything look bad, but that does not make it bad.

Based on your posts, I sincerely question the validity of your self-declared reconciliation.

Okay that is fine, but Shayk Omar Subedar, Mufti Abu Layth, Mufti Aasim Rashid, Mufti Ebrahim Desai, Shayk Atabek Shukrov, Shayk AbdurRaheem, Shayk Yasir Qadhi etc etc all hold the same view that it can be reconciled. So I hardly think they are wrong.

From what I recall, you're an ex-baptist who converted to Islam and you live in BC, Kamloops to be specific. Aren't there only like a few hundred Muslims there?

600 or so counting the students. Not entirely sure the exact number

I think there are about 80-90 thousand Muslims in all of BC. I highly doubt you have the authority to speak about a proper interpretation of Islam.

I do not and neither do you.

But who am I? Just a kid born and raised in the heart of Toronto (where there are over 425,000 Muslims), grew up in a very Muslim area (and I mean like hundreds of people walking around in niqab and thawb to and from giant mosques), went to school with mostly Muslims all my life, had many as friends and from all over the world too (mostly Pakistan, India, Somalia, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Egypt, and Iraq). Met and befriended tons of Muslims at the University of Toronto (also from all over the Muslim world, this time from UAE, Saudi, Oman, Yemen, and Jordan).

Cool. I have friends from all those areas too and more, what is the point?

I have traveled 11 American states and 3 Provinces just to talk to and meet Muslims. I did give some speeches, host dinners etc. It was in the form of Tablighi Jamat, I have posted about them before here I think.. if I haven't I can make a post about it.

I even converted at one point myself (long story). I got a Muslim name (Abdurrahman, basically the same name you got), prayed 5 times a day, studied classical and modern standard Arabic,

Cool, which style of Arabic did you study for the classical stuff? Which style of prayer did you learn?

all that jazz. But you know what, the deeper I got into it the more I realized I made a mistake.

Interesting, what Islamic texts did you study to create this opinion?

I started to realize that many of the Muslim kids I met at UofT didn't want to go back to their countries, fearing they would be killed for the things they did in university. I realized how many of them literally feared for their lives over things like being gay, doing drugs, making fun of Islamic topics such as the history of the texts and the prophet.

I think I have covered this already.. can you please go back an read it. Either in this thread or the other  Islam thread. If not look up Shayk Atabek Shukrovs position on these things. He explains the position on many things from the time of the Prophet up until now in deep detail and explains the different perversions sometimes.

There were many things like that which pushed me away, but the main one was the realization that so many Islamic countries banned age of consent laws as "un-Islamic" because in Islam the age of consent is when a girl hits puberty (ie when she has her period, ie between the ages of 8-15. Some scholars even say that the first sign of puberty is when the breasts develop, which is often 2 years before a girl has her period). That was the final straw for me, and I've completely done a 180 on the topic of Islam since then.

So since you were able to allegedly find a couple nut job scholars, who are claiming some thing or another it means the whole religion is flawed? That is an extremely low burden of proof to hate an entire religion with.

I sincerely hope you do the same, and until then, I hope you're waiting a LOONG time for that medical.

So Muslims have no place.. in your version of the Canadian Armed Forces? Mind explaining yourself, I almost did not reply at all due to your tone and this comment. I am Muslim and I fully intend on joining the armed forces in Canada, I will gladly do what is asked to keep Canada free and all people welcome and respected here.

Sorry if this is not coherent, I am busy. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you are having a rough day. Grab a coffee and get back to me mate.

Abdullah

 

[AbdullahD]

Just a list of Muslims speaking out or condemning Terrorism or bigoted acts... it is relativetly thorough it is a few pages, just warning.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e8BjMW36CMNc4-qc9UNQku0blstZSzp5FMtkdlavqzc/edit#gid=0

 

[AbdullahD]

I could have sworn I saw a post something about terrorism hoaxes, or some such thing and it stayed in my mind and then I saw this.

http://onepathnetwork.com/fake-imams-play-muslim-leaders-stir-hatred-fear/

Seems like if the terrorists wanted to alienate Muslims, playing both sides would work very effectively. Sadly I do not have contacts or enough contacts to southern Australia to confirm this article. But it looks legitimate enough.

Abdullah

 

[Jarnhamar]

Abdullah what do you think about placing Cameras inside mosques and other places of worship? Or not allowing children under the age of 18 to attend places of worship?

Also what do you think of the state Sweden is in at the moment? Over exaggerated or an actual issue?

 

[George Wallace]

For some of the Cold War Warriors here, this may hit close to home:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

World News | Sun Mar 12, 2017 | 10:29am EDT
German police end operation over attack threat in southwest town
REUTERS

German police said on Sunday they were questioning a man in his early 20s who was detained after an overnight operation in the southwestern town of Offenburg following a security threat.

Germany is on high alert following deadly militant attacks in France and Belgium and after a failed asylum seeker from Tunisia drove a truck into a Berlin Christmas market in December, killing 12 people. Islamic State claimed responsibility for that attack.

Police said they believed one target of a potential attack was a night club. They added that no weapons were found during the operation and a second man who was arrested was later released.

Federal and local police officers stepped up security in Offenburg's town centre and on public transport.

Offenburg lies in the state of Baden-Wuerttemberg close to the French border. French police were involved in the operation.

Separately, on Saturday, police in the city of Essen closed a shopping mall after security agencies warned of a possible attack.

Security sources said that threat appeared to follow a call for violence by a German militant loyal to Islamic State who is currently based in a region of Syria controlled by the militant group.

Police questioned two men in connection with the Essen threat.

(Writing by Madeline Chambers; Editing by Mark Potter)

More on LINK

Strasbourg is just across the Rhine, and the French military have had armed military patrols in the streets for the past couple years.  Yes, the French have "armed soldiers in the streets".  Whether other EU nations take up this SOP could be a good question. 

 

[AbdullahD]

Abdullah what do you think about placing Cameras inside mosques and other places of worship?[/quote)

I think it is a bad idea and will only divide this beautiful country even more. My opinion is formed on what happened to Muslims and Mosques in New York after 9-11.

Or not allowing children under the age of 18 to attend places of worship?

I think that is another bad idea, but if a person wants to explore that avenue.. then we must also explore the avenue of not letting kids see guns before 18, or hunt, or play violent games, or movies, or any idea or thought that violates our own ideas or thoughts.

I in no way think places of worship are the problem in any way, period. Just because one or two nut cases managed to get to the podium, does not make a systematic? Problem. I think thats the right word lol.

Also what do you think of the state Sweden is in at the moment? Over exaggerated or an actual issue?

I have no real opinion, I simply do not know enough to have formed one. I have seen compelling arguements saying the problem is exaggerated. But until you go there or have someone you trust 100% in the real world go there.. you can never be sure.

I think a lot of money is being spent on the Islam topic right now and it is all overblown.

Just my opinion
Abdullah

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=AbdullahD]
I think it is a bad idea and will only divide this beautiful country even more. My opinion is formed on what happened to Muslims and Mosques in New York after 9-11.[/quote]

Why is it a bad idea?  Surely you see what kind of hate speech and radicalization happens inside places of worship under the guise of religion (or through it).  Or the abuse of children by clergy members in positions of power?  Wouldn't this be a good way to calm fears of radicalization or even serve as an early warning for it?  Maybe it could be a requirement en order for a church to gain tax-free status.

I think that is another bad idea, but if a person wants to explore that avenue.. then we must also explore the avenue of not letting kids see guns before 18, or hunt, or play violent games, or movies, or any idea or thought that violates our own ideas or thoughts.

I disagree for a few reasons. If a child picked up a gun and the gun told them gays should go to hell, women are below men and jews should be murdered then I would agree. Guns are inanimate objects. Someone in a position of power pushing views on impressionable youth are not.

As for seeing guns in action in the context of violence, movies have a maturity rating. People generally ignore it but it's still there. You can't take a 7 year old into John Wick 2 for example.  Some of the more violent video games as well have maturity ratings and some cannot be sold to children under 18.
I wouldn't let my children watch movies with extreme amounts of violence or play games like grand theft auto.

I in no way think places of worship are the problem in any way, period. Just because one or two nut cases managed to get to the podium, does not make a systematic? Problem.

I think you're 100% wrong with your observation that it's one or two nutcases.  The Mosque in Toronto that was featured in the recent M103 protest/counter-protest is an excellent example. Talking about filthy jews and murdering them. Or Steven Anderson, pastor in AZ talking about murdering gays.  Hop on youtube and you can find dozens of videos in seconds of places of worship preaching hate. 

Children aren't born religious, it's a learned behavior and belief.  Maybe the place of worship itself isn't the problem but what gets said inside can be (and is, IMO).

I think a lot of money is being spent on the Islam topic right now and it is all overblown.

Nice France or the 2015 Paris attacks are not cause for concern?

 

[Loachman]

For some of the Cold War Warriors here, this may hit close to home:

I was the first CF Member to live in Offenburg.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I was the first CF Member to live in Offenburg.

Have they forgiven you yet?

 

[Loachman]

I contributed significantly to the town's income - they didn't mind me too much.

 

[AbdullahD]

Why is it a bad idea?  Surely you see what kind of hate speech and radicalization happens inside places of worship under the guise of religion (or through it).  Or the abuse of children by clergy members in positions of power?  Wouldn't this be a good way to calm fears of radicalization or even serve as an early warning for it?  Maybe it could be a requirement en order for a church to gain tax-free status.

I disagree for a few reasons. If a child picked up a gun and the gun told them gays should go to hell, women are below men and jews should be murdered then I would agree. Guns are inanimate objects. Someone in a position of power pushing views on impressionable youth are not.

As for seeing guns in action in the context of violence, movies have a maturity rating. People generally ignore it but it's still there. You can't take a 7 year old into John Wick 2 for example.  Some of the more violent video games as well have maturity ratings and some cannot be sold to children under 18.
I wouldn't let my children watch movies with extreme amounts of violence or play games like grand theft auto.
I think you're 100% wrong with your observation that it's one or two nutcases.  The Mosque in Toronto that was featured in the recent M103 protest/counter-protest is an excellent example. Talking about filthy jews and murdering them. Or Steven Anderson, pastor in AZ talking about murdering gays.  Hop on youtube and you can find dozens of videos in seconds of places of worship preaching hate. 

Children aren't born religious, it's a learned behavior and belief.  Maybe the place of worship itself isn't the problem but what gets said inside can be (and is, IMO).

Nice France or the 2015 Paris attacks are not cause for concern?

Jarnhamar these are our old talking points neither of us are able to meet common ground, but before you decide to tell someone places of worship are evil or bad. You best visit a bunch I've been to more Mosques in more states and provinces in north America, doing work with the Islamic community, then I care to count.

But I still feel I am right and your wrong, but I do not feel any need to continue to address things I feel I have covered. My position on most of these things is known here so I feel no need to keep beating the drum. Yes I used guns as an example, because it is a freedom we have in Canada and if someone thinks it is ok to take away one freedom because of his biases, then we might as well take them all.

If you brought up something I have not addressed, I will address it. But I do not wish to fight.

Abdullah

 

[Jarnhamar]

Jarnhamar these are our old talking points neither of us are able to meet common ground, but before you decide to tell someone places of worship are evil or bad. You best visit a bunch I've been to more Mosques in more states and provinces in north America, doing work with the Islamic community, then I care to count.

I'm roman catholic and spent time in a catholic school before switching over to public school. I also still visit churches with religious friends of mine and enjoy the ambiance (when it's the peace and love kind). I'd say a sweat lodge I visited was the most enjoyable however.

But I still feel I am right and your wrong, but I do not feel any need to continue to address things I feel I have covered.

I'll be honest here (and hopefully respectful)  I think you're taking the easy way out by not answering my questions. We haven't as of yet discussed children or cameras in places of worship as a topic as far as I am aware. I feel like the hate speech inside said places is rather untouched territory too.  I'm sure you wouldn't object to cameras inside day cares would you? 

Yes I used guns as an example, because it is a freedom we have in Canada and if someone thinks it is ok to take away one freedom because of his biases, then we might as well take them all.

Firearm ownership in Canada is not a right nor are they protected by something like the 2nd amendment that the US has. It's a strictly controlled privilege here.  Lots of shooting ranges in North America have cameras; it's a way to prevent people from behaving in a way contrary to the law, among other things.

If you brought up something I have not addressed, I will address it. But I do not wish to fight.
Abdullah

No fighting here.
I think as a convert to Islam you bring an interesting position to the debate table. Thanks.

 

[AbdullahD]

I would very strongly object to cameras inside of daycares and my children attend a daycare as well.. not to mention my Mom runs one

We may not have specifically covered it and yes, it could be the easy way out. But let's face it, you know I am going to take the position that only a very minute minority of Muslims or so called Muslims follow these radical ideas, so it does not legitimize watching all Muslims. I personally know of a white christian guy who said he would kill any black guy who dated his daughter, so does that mean we should put cameras in all homes of religious people as well? Because if that problem is the place of worship, then those who attend those places must be a problem to.. right? Were does it end, how much liberty are we Canadians willing to give up to protect us from the remote chance the idiotic minority may do something?

I for one, would prefer liberty and freedom and all the risks that come with that. Then to live in a tightly controlled society were everything is monitored.

I am sure a lot of those cameras were installed to protect against thieves and vandalism and a lot of Mosques already have cameras for this reason too. Just imagine how the gun community would react, if we put independent cameras in a gun range to 'monitor' what happened there. Cause you know, things get said there.

Sorry, I just want to live a free life. Terrorism is not a real threat to people in north america, you a more likely to die in a car accident or many other ways then in a religious terrorist act.. so yea, feel free to worry about it. But the minority of people, who may never put risk to my family, who i may not be able to stop even if i spent billions of dollars.. i wont worry about. Ill worry about things i can control. And speeches made by one person in one mosque half ways across canada are not under my control.

Abdullah

Ps Also i have never seen any hate speech or these silly ideas in any mosque ive been too and ive been to.. a lot. 6 week road trip, new mosque every two or three days all the way to detroit and back. Then almost every single Mosque in BC. I have yet to get to ft st john and I am missing two in Vancouver. So i think i have a pretty darn good sampling size to draw my opinion from.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I would very strongly object to cameras inside of daycares and my children attend a daycare as well.. not to mention my Mom runs one

I'm genuinely surprised to hear that. Have you seen some of the videos of abuse that happens at daycare?  Holy shit. Kids getting picked up by their freaking heads.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLidfDb0F1g
You're a more trusting parent than I.  May I ask what would make you very strongly object to cameras safe guarding the treatment of your children?

We may not have specifically covered it and yes, it could be the easy way out. But let's face it, you know I am going to take the position that only a very minute minority of Muslims or so called Muslims follow these radical ideas, so it does not legitimize watching all Muslims. I personally know of a white christian guy who said he would kill any black guy who dated his daughter, so does that mean we should put cameras in all homes of religious people as well? Because if that problem is the place of worship, then those who attend those places must be a problem to.. right? Were does it end, how much liberty are we Canadians willing to give up to protect us from the remote chance the idiotic minority may do something?

I can guess at your position, yes of course. In turn I know you're aware of my bias however I'm making en effort to speak in general terms rather than single out specific religions.

Putting cameras in peoples homes is going too far (unless you have a Samsung TV..) but in a place of worship? That's not without it's merits. I can dig up a video of children in a mosque (could as easily be a church) being physically abused. Kicked in the spine, cuffed in the face.  If and when children are taught to hate it's going to stay with them. I'd argue contribute to radicalizing them. 

I am sure a lot of those cameras were installed to protect against thieves and vandalism and a lot of Mosques already have cameras for this reason too. Just imagine how the gun community would react, if we put independent cameras in a gun range to 'monitor' what happened there. Cause you know, things get said there.

I would support cameras at gun ranges for the purposes of monitoring what people are saying if murdering gays, non-believers, infidels, people who laugh at bald men etc.. was common place. Actually I would say they should be arrested.  Why is it okay for religious people to preach murder?

Sorry, I just want to live a free life.

Except your religion tells you what you can and can't eat. How to dress. How to act. Whether or not you can listen to music. Depending on which expert you listen to.

Terrorism is not a real threat to people in north america, you a more likely to die in a car accident or many other ways then in a religious terrorist act.. so yea, feel free to worry about it. But the minority of people, who may never put risk to my family, who i may not be able to stop even if i spent billions of dollars.. i wont worry about. Ill worry about things i can control. And speeches made by one person in one mosque half ways across canada are not under my control.

I'll worry about car accidents AND terrorism.  I've both been in a car accident and heard a clergy member (in a video) talking about murdering people while in down town Toronto. Real enough for me.

Ps Also i have never seen any hate speech or these silly ideas in any mosque ive been too and ive been to.. a lot. 6 week road trip, new mosque every two or three days all the way to detroit and back. Then almost every single Mosque in BC. I have yet to get to ft st john and I am missing two in Vancouver. So i think i have a pretty darn good sampling size to draw my opinion from.

In all your time visiting mosques you've never once heard something about harming other human beings? That's interesting.

Please don't feel I'm putting you on trial or attacking you with what I'm asking here. Your statement made me think of something though. While reading about Scientology, celebrities (and regular members) have suggested (or outright stated) that celebrities are exposed to a sort of Scientology-light version of it. They don't get hit with both barrels so to speak. They aren't exposed to the deeper darker aspect of that religion, including what happens when you try to leave.

Military wise I know when generals or high ranking officers make "surprise visits" we have a considerable amount of warning to make everything nice and presentable.  Outspoken members are essentially warned not to say anything, or given tasks away from where ever.

Being a sort of academic inspired (or inclined?) Muslim convert do you think it's possible at times for you to be presented a specific image? That your visits may be sort of catered too?  Or do you feel you're not given any special consideration and are a proverbial fly on the wall?

 

[AbdullahD]

Jarnhamar, you can not look for a devil under every rock. Review this thread and consider the sheer amount of evidence I use to support my opinion, I in no way shape or form have I been exposed 'solely' to a 'Islam light' version. If I was so amused I can supply all the so called evidences the radical Imams use for the extremist positions they hold, showing you I understand their arguments and then debunk them all. But the hundreds of hours that would require and the dubious result, is not worth it to me.

Discussing war and preaching Murder are two complete and different things. I have never heard (aside from the internet) any so called Imam preach murder of 'infidels'. Also insert this for most other anti-Islam views that are held. If I ever ran into or run into someone advicating Murder or wife beating or any such bs, I would be getting my evidence then detaining the piece of junk until police arrived. I guess i better amend what I said, I have heard a person, not a religious leader advocate murder and I dealt with that as best and thoroughly as I could, but it did not happen in a mosque and the guy is mentally handicapped in and out of jail and on an first name basis with the rcmp.

Bad things happen in every single area of the world, no place is exempt. But if we start taking away our rights because we can 'find' things 'online', were do we stop? Hell if anyone wanted to demonize gun owners, all it would take is a few hours on CGN to have all the material they would ever need. If you want to find a demon you will, wether or not it actually exists is another thing entirely.

My kids will continue going to daycare, where no cameras exist. My wife and I even trust that daycare to keeps my kids diet halal as well and they are non Muslim! I will continue to live my life and not worry about these silly little things.

And yes I ignored the jabs. I am ignorant Jarnhamar, of many many things, but on some things, I am confident enough, to know I am right. But me believing I am right, does not mean you can't believe you are right too and I will defend your right to be a critic of Islam.

We all deserve privacy and the ability to live and make choices without the fear.. that the government is watching us 24/7. How many hundreds and thousands of places of worship and daycares etc, never ever have any of these things happen in them.. that alone tells me they do not deserve to be demonized.

The Internet is either a wonderful place or an evil place, you have stormfront and my little pony in it and where you end up is where you decide to go.

Abdullah

Ps and yes i know many of you fine chaps have been to the mid east and that is a wholly different discussion.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Editing my post for brevity and avoid circular arguments.

Bad things happen in every single area of the world, no place is exempt. But if we start taking away our rights because we can 'find' things 'online', were do we stop? Hell if anyone wanted to demonize gun owners, all it would take is a few hours on CGN to have all the material they would ever need. If you want to find a demon you will, wether or not it actually exists is another thing entirely.
My kids will continue going to daycare, where no cameras exist. My wife and I even trust that daycare to keeps my kids diet halal as well and they are non Muslim! I will continue to live my life and not worry about these silly little things.

Which right of yours is violated by having a camera in a church or day care?  Did you watch the video in the link I posted? Somehow I doubt if I put my hands on your kids and treated them the way the children in the video are treated you would consider it a silly thing.

I'm more concerned about catching abuse where and when it's happening. In my opinion the trade off is worth it. The parents of the kid thrown around in the video I posted would have never known had it not been recorded. That camera may have even saved the kids life. Likewise we would have never known a Mosque in down town Toronto was talking about purifying the filth of the Jews had a camera not been involved.

The Internet is either a wonderful place or an evil place, you have stormfront and my little pony in it and where you end up is where you decide to go.

Exactly right. As a parent there is no reason to monitor your children's online activity or who's talking to them.