Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)

[tomahawk6]

Abdulla what is your take on these verses from the Koran ?

https://carm.org/islam-religion-peace-and-terrorism

1.The Qur'an tells Muslims to kill and go to war to fight for Islam: Quran, chapters (Surahs) 9:5, 2:191, 2:193, 3:118, 4:75, 76, 5:33, 8:12, 8:65, 9:73, 123, 33:60-62.

2.Fight for Allah: "And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers," (Quran 2:191).

3.Muslims are to battle for Allah: "Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil's strategy is ever weak," (Quran 4:76).

4.Kill those against Islam: "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter," (Quran 5:33).

5.Beheading: "When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. 13That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment," (Quran 8:12).

6.Allah urges war: "O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand," (Quran 8:65).

7.Slay non-muslims: "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful," (Quran 9:5).

8.Allah urges war: "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination," (Quran 9:73).
9.Allah urges war: "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil)," (Quran 9:123).

10.Allah urges killing: " . . . the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease and the agitators in the city do not desist . . . 61Cursed: wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering. 62(Such has been) the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah, (Quran 33:60-62).

11.Beheading: "Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens . . . " (Quran 47:4).

12.Allah loves those who fight for him: "Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure," (Quran 61:4).

 

[AbdullahD]

Abdulla what is your take on these verses from the Koran ?

https://carm.org/islam-religion-peace-and-terrorism

I am not Qualified to give Tafsir of Quran. So I have no opinion on them. But you can follow this link I provide and read the Tafsir for them yourself.

http://www.islamibayanaat.com/EMQ.htm

btw I got distracted so I was not able to explain the other posts I made. But I see no dire need to anyways.

Abdullah

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

But you have still dodged a very valid question for over a day now.

 

[AbdullahD]

But you have still dodged a very valid question for over a day now.

Was that the one I quite bluntly said I would not answer?

Or was there another?

Abdullah

 

[daftandbarmy]

Might be just  a few parallels today with past events in the middle east:

Mahdi Uprising

Among the forces historians see as the causes of the uprising are ethnic Sudanese anger at the foreign Turkish Ottoman rulers, Muslim revivalist anger at the Turks' lax religious standards and willingness to appoint non-Muslims such as the Christian Charles Gordon to high positions, and Sudanese Sufi resistance to "dry, scholastic Islam of Egyptian officialdom."[2]

In the 1870s, a Muslim cleric named Muhammad Ahmad preached renewal of the faith and liberation of the land, and began attracting followers. Soon in open revolt against the Egyptians, Muhammad Ahmad proclaimed himself the Mahdi, the promised redeemer of the Islamic world. In August 1881 the then-governor of the Sudan, Raouf Pasha, sent two companies of infantry each with one machine gun to arrest him. The captains of the two companies were each promised promotion if their soldiers were the ones to return the Mahdi to the governor. Both companies disembarked from the steamer that had brought them up the Nile to Aba Island and approached the Mahdi's village from separate directions. Arriving simultaneously, each force began to fire blindly on the other, allowing the Mahdi's scant followers to attack and destroy each force in turn at the Battle of Aba.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdist_War

 

[Jarnhamar]

Was that the one I quite bluntly said I would not answer?

Or was there another?

Abdullah

I respect you for having the integrity to choose not to answer instead of posting a platitude or falsehood to avoid, I'm assuming, compromising your image of religious tolerance.

In my view it outlines the hidden hard-line beliefs in many so called moderates after a few layers are peeled back and why we in the west don't want anything remotely to do with Sharia law.


In the west we struggle to understand why Aqsa Parvez, for example, was killed by her father and brother just for wanting to get a job and dress like a Canadian 16-year-old girl (her peers). It's a belief system that is simply too far removed from what we've built here.

 

[Jed]

I respect you for having the integrity to choose not to answer instead of posting a platitude or falsehood to avoid, I'm assuming, compromising your image of religious tolerance.

In my view it outlines the hidden hard-line beliefs in many so called moderates after a few layers are peeled back and why we in the west don't want anything remotely to do with Sharia law.


In the west we struggle to understand why Aqsa Parvez, for example, was killed by her father and brother just for wanting to get a job and dress like a Canadian 16-year-old girl (her peers). It's a belief system that is simply too far removed from what we've built here.

I believe you have put the spotlight on the key difficulty of the western world understanding or fully accepting the Muslim faith as is and unreformed.

 

[jollyjacktar]

In the west we struggle to understand why Aqsa Parvez, for example, was killed by her father and brother just for wanting to get a job and dress like a Canadian 16-year-old girl (her peers). It's a belief system that is simply too far removed from what we've built here.

Now to be fair, was that not really a barbaric minded cultural thing and not a religious connection  with something like Sharia Law?

 

[AbdullahD]

I respect you for having the integrity to choose not to answer instead of posting a platitude or falsehood to avoid, I'm assuming, compromising your image of religious tolerance.

In my view it outlines the hidden hard-line beliefs in many so called moderates after a few layers are peeled back and why we in the west don't want anything remotely to do with Sharia law.


In the west we struggle to understand why Aqsa Parvez, for example, was killed by her father and brother just for wanting to get a job and dress like a Canadian 16-year-old girl (her peers). It's a belief system that is simply too far removed from what we've built here.

Actually if you review my earlier posts, you will see I have already posted 3 links on apostasy and how to treat people who leave Islam. I highly suggest people actually read the links I post, I do so for a reason.

I still do not see any need to show you guys what I would do in a  hypothetical situation. I have learned to avoid talking about what I personally would do in hypothetical situations, because so many people wish to look for one little thing to take out of context to scream extremist with.

Now If Islam was such a violent hateful religion, the majority of Muslims would be doing hateful violent things. But thats not the case, only a very small minority is, but thats the minority so many wish to focus on. Remember there are 1.8 billon Muslims in the world, you can pretty much find a so called muslim doing anything.

So please review the links I have posted and therein you will see a good outline of what Muslims should do. Unless ive completely failed.

Abdullah

 

[George Wallace]

Actually if you review my earlier posts, you will see I have already posted 3 links on apostasy and how to treat people who leave Islam. I highly suggest people actually read the links I post, I do so for a reason.

I still do not see any need to show you guys what I would do in a  hypothetical situation. I have learned to avoid talking about what I personally would do in hypothetical situations, because so many people wish to look for one little thing to take out of context to scream extremist with.

Now If Islam was such a violent hateful religion, the majority of Muslims would be doing hateful violent things. But thats not the case, only a very small minority is, but thats the minority so many wish to focus on. Remember there are 1.8 billon Muslims in the world, you can pretty much find a so called muslim doing anything.

So please review the links I have posted and therein you will see a good outline of what Muslims should do. Unless ive completely failed.

Abdullah

Actually, your refusal to answer a hypothetical question is quite telling.  Posting links as to the "peaceful intentions of Islam" is informative; but the lack of other links that point out the use of "unscrupulous deception" as is proposed in the Quran towards gaining the faith and trust of "non-believers" is just as telling.  We so often repeat history through the simple act of not being educated on the events that have led us to where we are today.  How many societies have been destroyed through acts of deception and/or betrayal?

Hopefully you are not so devote and inflexible in your ways that it will prevent you from integrating into the society in which you now find yourself.   

 

[AbdullahD]

Actually, your refusal to answer a hypothetical question is quite telling.  Posting links as to the "peaceful intentions of Islam" is informative; but the lack of other links that point out the use of "unscrupulous deception" as is proposed in the Quran towards gaining the faith and trust of "non-believers" is just as telling.  We so often repeat history through the simple act of not being educated on the events that have led us to where we are today.  How many societies have been destroyed through acts of deception and/or betrayal?

Hopefully you are not so devote and inflexible in your ways that it will prevent you from integrating into the society in which you now find yourself. 

I am not sure how I can post links for every single topic that we can possibly cover, but since I notice it is an issue... here we go.

Lying and deceit are only allowed in Islam under very specific circumstances. I assume you have not been well briefed on this topic. Ill add some links.

http://askimam.org/public/question_detail/28898

http://askimam.org/public/question_detail/29097

https://islamqa.info/en/178975

https://islamqa.info/en/2424

https://islamqa.info/en/175632

I think these link fully and completely cover this topic.

Again it is quicker for me to post links then to spend hours typing replys.

Now if you really think I'm lying and deceiving then we have a much larger issue. I have been doing my best to be honest and straight forward here. I just dont wish to dwell on hypothetical situations.

Abdullah

 

[Good2Golf]

Actually if you review my earlier posts, you will see I have already posted 3 links on apostasy and how to treat people who leave Islam. I highly suggest people actually read the links I post, I do so for a reason.

I still do not see any need to show you guys what I would do in a  hypothetical situation. I have learned to avoid talking about what I personally would do in hypothetical situations, because so many people wish to look for one little thing to take out of context to scream extremist with.

Now If Islam was such a violent hateful religion, the majority of Muslims would be doing hateful violent things. But thats not the case, only a very small minority is, but thats the minority so many wish to focus on. Remember there are 1.8 billon Muslims in the world, you can pretty much find a so called muslim doing anything.

So please review the links I have posted and therein you will see a good outline of what Muslims should do. Unless ive completely failed.

Abdullah

Abdullah, I appreciate greatly your previous contribution to the discussion, it has been very valuable in gaining an appreciation of some of the nuances of Islam to those of us who are not familiar with the complexity of the religion and of its interplay between religion and culture.

That said, I do find it interesting when the question of Aqsa Parvez and her death within the framework of culture, Sharia Law and Islam is posed, there is no answer, or even addressing its nature, within the 'read my past links' response.

Indeed you are free to answer (as you have in the past, thank you for that), or not, as you choose, and that is entirely your choice and right.  It is, however, also our right to wonder, and indeed at least pose the question, even if we know that a response may be deferred or refused.

Regards
G2G

 

[AbdullahD]

Abdullah, I appreciate greatly your previous contribution to the discussion, it has been very valuable in gaining an appreciation of some of the nuances of Islam to those of us who are not familiar with the complexity of the religion and of its interplay between religion and culture.

That said, I do find it interesting when the question of Aqsa Parvez and her death within the framework of culture, Sharia Law and Islam is posed, there is no answer, or even addressing its nature, within the 'read my past links' response.

Indeed you are free to answer (as you have in the past, thank you for that), or not, as you choose, and that is entirely your choice and right.  It is, however, also our right to wonder, and indeed at least pose the question, even if we know that a response may be deferred or refused.

Regards
G2G

G2G and the rest of you fine gentleman;

I am not trying to be intentionally sketchy. I am sorry for that, but a lot of these questions require vast amounts of research to correctly answer.

Now I'll make a deal, that ill do my best to hold to. I will answer these questions, except those that are to do with my family and those I feel are blatantly insulting.

but please accept links. I can not hope to answer them all correctly from my own written responses. The question about my opinion on verses of the Quran would take untold hours to answer... so I posted a link to an authentic tafsir.

If you wish for me to address this brutal murder of a child I will. Just give me time. I work 5-6 days a week 10-12 hours per shift, I hit the gym 4-5 days a week for a hour and then I need time for my wife and two kids.

So please forgive me guys. but there is only one of me

Abdullah

 

[Good2Golf]

Abdullah, fair enough.  I have not seen, however, any links that substantively address the chasm that appears between a religion and of a culture, particularly in the case of the Sharia.

Regards,
G2G 

 

[AbdullahD]

Abdullah, fair enough.  I have not seen, however, any links that substantively address the chasm that appears between a religion and of a culture, particularly in the case of the Sharia.

Regards,
G2G

That is good, hereunder is my response.

Islam and Culture (any culture) are not incompatible, a person can practice his culture as long as it doesnt contradict the laws of the Sharia. So my Wife and I are both reverts (also 3 and 4 generation Canadians respectively.. actually I may be 5th gen I forget), we both practice Canadian Culture and Islam happily and with no Qualms. We just opt out of the things that the Sharia does not allow us to do.

A lot of people get hung up on their respective culture... i.e treating Hijab as a uniform instead of guidelines. A lot of Muslims think hijab is salwar kameez and scarf.... whereas my wife practices hijab as the guidelines of how to dress... so she wears baggy pants and a hoody.

I go hunting, I eat steak, I wear jeans etc etc etc and I feel like I am following the Sharia 100%.

A link to a more intelligent explanation;
http://www.dar-alifta.org/Foreign/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=447&CategoryID=6

Now regarding the brutal Murder of this innocent child by these demented fools (any person who murders a child especially there own automatically earns my hate, if I need to be warned for this language I accept full responsibility for it). This is clearly forbidden in Islam, these guys have a demented and twisted culture that allows for such atrocious acts.

Fatawa saying honor killings are not allowed;
http://askimam.org/public/question_detail/18642

I have a fatawa that I requested personally, that shows injunctions of the sharia can not be inforced outside of Dar-Al-Islam as well. I can quote it in full if you guys dont believe me, but it is about inheritance so its a lot of reading for just one aspect.

I was looking for something else but this  shows that even if a person murdered his children before Islam he had to pay for those sins.
http://askimam.org/public/question_detail/28213

So killing your children over some petty honor thing is forbidden, forcing people to follow the injunctions of the Sharia outside dar al islam is not allowed, etc. So i stick by my position this guy was an utter fool brutally murdering his child.

Also a little link on how Muslims should raise their kids.
https://islamqa.info/en/215167

Now I believe that addresses all outstanding questions.... I hope.

Abdullah

Modified to add this link regarding this particular case.
http://muslimmatters.org/2007/12/12/the-hijab-story-tragic-murder-of-aqsa-parvez/

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I am sorry Abdullah, and apologize in advance, but I just saw that today and couldn't resist:



Though, I have to admit, it also emphasizes your point (which I have acknowledged before), that there are not one but many Islam, as it appears to have been one of the most schismatic religion ever - after all the first schism happened right after the death of the prophet, and had to do with his succession. That Shi'a v. Sunn'i schism is still with us today, amongst a few others that have occurred since. The main point being here that there are many different interpretation of the will of Allah in the various islamic faiths.

I am just glad you, yourself seem to be from one of the "Meccan" interpretation that sees "jihad" as an inner struggle rather than a war on the infidels.

 

[AbdullahD]

I am sorry Abdullah, and apologize in advance, but I just saw that today and couldn't resist:



Though, I have to admit, it also emphasizes your point (which I have acknowledged before), that there are not one but many Islam, as it appears to have been one of the most schismatic religion ever - after all the first schism happened right after the death of the prophet, and had to do with his succession. That Shi'a v. Sunn'i schism is still with us today, amongst a few others that have occurred since. The main point being here that there are many different interpretation of the will of Allah in the various islamic faiths.

I am just glad you, yourself seem to be from one of the "Meccan" interpretation that sees "jihad" as an inner struggle rather than a war on the infidels.

A joke is a joke, if it is done not intending to hurt a person. Then that person should take that into consideration.

Also... for crying out loud I'm on a Canadian Army web forum.... if I can't take a little hazing... how will I live through BMQ?

I agree, there are major splits in Islam. But it is what it is, if there weren't.... we wouldnt have daesh or the taliban etc.

The Christian splits did tend to start around the first council of Nicaea (spelling). But then again they didnt have a state to pass on either...

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=AbdullahD]

Now I'll make a deal, that ill do my best to hold to. I will answer these questions, except those that are to do with my family and those I feel are blatantly insulting.

but please accept links. I can not hope to answer them all correctly from my own written responses. The question about my opinion on verses of the Quran would take untold hours to answer... so I posted a link to an authentic tafsir.

[/quote]

Abdullah I respect and acknowledge the effort you are clearly putting into posting these links but I'll be honest with you, they don't really mean that much to me. Chances are the authors of those links are not going to be my neighbor, you are.  You're interested in joining the Canadian Armed Forces which means you'll be in my community, wearing the uniform I wear, your kids will go to school with my kids, my kids will go to your house, you may even be my boss. 

Your personal opinion is worth 1000 links.  The reason I asked you a personal question about your family is because you represent Islam in Canada, not some article from some guy 10 years ago etc..

I think you as a poster lose credibility when you make a statement like Islam is a religion of peace and when someone gives you 150+ examples of how it's not, you don't have an opinion. And yet you post links which I assume in your opinion, are relevant.  It feels like you want to politely avoid the hard, relevant questions and just send people to various links.


Speaking about links, from one of the links you provided.

Flog those who accuse any of the chaste women (of committing adultery), but fail to backup (their charges) with four eyewitnesses -- flog them with eighty lashes, and thereafter do not accept their testimony ever again. Surely, they are the wicked ones. (Quran 24:4)

We still see the archaic requirement of 4 witnesses to prove a crime.  It's from this practice of 4 witnesses that we read about a woman being gang raped then herself punished because she made an accusation without 4 witnesses to back her up.


We can argue about what's written in the Bible and Quran all day long but in my opinion that stuff is much less relevant than how people today, in 2016, act on what's written. How they understand it,what they take away from it and especially how they apply it to their lives today.
One of the major problems with Islam is that so many followers, "every day" people,still take all that crazy stuff literally.


http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/shafia-parents-and-son-convicted-in-honour-killing-of-four-family-members-seek-new-trial

A Montreal father, mother and son convicted nearly four years ago of murdering four other family members in an honour killing argue,
///
The sensational three-month long trial heard that Shafia was enraged because he felt his teenage daughters had violated cultural rules requiring sexual modesty, they were disobedient and the two eldest girls had boyfriends. Rona wanted a divorce and supported the girls in their pursuit of western lifestyles.

 

[AbdullahD]

Abdullah I respect and acknowledge the effort you are clearly putting into posting these links but I'll be honest with you, they don't really mean that much to me. Chances are the authors of those links are not going to be my neighbor, you are.  You're interested in joining the Canadian Armed Forces which means you'll be in my community, wearing the uniform I wear, your kids will go to school with my kids, my kids will go to your house, you may even be my boss. 

Your personal opinion is worth 1000 links.  The reason I asked you a personal question about your family is because you represent Islam in Canada, not some article from some guy 10 years ago etc..

I think you as a poster lose credibility when you make a statement like Islam is a religion of peace and when someone gives you 150+ examples of how it's not, you don't have an opinion. And yet you post links which I assume in your opinion, are relevant.  It feels like you want to politely avoid the hard, relevant questions and just send people to various links.


Speaking about links, from one of the links you provided.We still see the archaic requirement of 4 witnesses to prove a crime.  It's from this practice of 4 witnesses that we read about a woman being gang raped then herself punished because she made an accusation without 4 witnesses to back her up.


We can argue about what's written in the Bible and Quran all day long but in my opinion that stuff is much less relevant than how people today, in 2016, act on what's written. How they understand it,what they take away from it and especially how they apply it to their lives today.
One of the major problems with Islam is that so many followers, "every day" people,still take all that crazy stuff literally.


http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/shafia-parents-and-son-convicted-in-honour-killing-of-four-family-members-seek-new-trial

I understand the point you are making,  I just feel and believe that what a specific person does in a very specific situation does not reflect what is to be expected by an entire group.

Now if a person brings up a situation from a decade ago, why is it not fair and relevant to post a link from a decade ago?

If I was to spend the time to personally type up answers to every Question that is asked, I would literally have to quit my job.

I do believe the links I have posted have been addressing the issues that have been brought up. You can safely assume my opinion is relatively close to the opinions stated in the links. I also again state that I do not expect you to agree with everything in Islam, I just hope that you will believe me when I say Muslims are not savages. Just the extremists are.

Now you want to see how people apply the Quran in this day and age, well im just one person. So I give links to many more people or maybe go to Mosques and ask the people how they act.

Also I missed the post where someone posted a 150+ issues with Islam and I ignored it. I honestly cant remember that post.

gtg got tripped
Abdullah

p.s I posted a link on honor killing already and I posted a link to an authentic tafsir for explanation of any Quran that is posted. I also let me know if you feel that I should debate the merits of 4 witnesses, IMO it is just a different legal system and not really needing to be argued. It is on pay with me debating first past the post vs proportional representation political systems... not that important imo

 

[ArmyRick]

I find the history of religions more interesting than anything however... like most of you I do not believe in Santa, easter Bunny or tooth fairy

I believe in real science (not "science" for profit), evolution, dinosaurs, darwinism, etc.

I can not say I am 100% aetheist because I still wish people a Merry Christmas and a Happy easter (I believ Jesus/Esa was real but what exactly he was...a different story)

When mankind becomes so wrapped up in religion and uses it as an excuse to impose their will on others, then you know something has gone terribly wrong.