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Islam and Western Society

While requirements are requirements, I agree with Mr. Watson's sentiments that a course aimed at Islamic proselytizing is something better suited for a religious community centre, not a publicly-funded university.

National Post

Ontario university defends decision to kick non-Muslim out of course that teaches Islamic preaching

A London, Ont., university is defending its decision to restrict access to a course that teaches Muslims how to proselytize.

The Huron College course — The Muslim Voice: Islamic Preaching, Public Speaking and Worship — was, according to the syllabus, “open to Muslim men and women who offer religious leadership and/or speak publicly about Islam on behalf of their communities.”


The school allowed a non-Muslim to enrol in the course, but then kicked him out because, they said, they didn’t want to open the course to auditors.


That student, Moray Watson, is an accountant who says he is an opponent of Islamic extremism and enrolled in the course partly to test the prerequisite in the syllabus.

I’m not allowed to take the course because I’m not a Muslim.

“[The school] gets $6.5-million [from the government]. Some of it is mine and I’m not allowed to take the course because I’m not a Muslim,” he said.

After he complained, the school changed the syllabus, saying the course was “open to men and women who offer religious leadership to Muslim communities and/or speak publicly about Islam on behalf of a Muslim community.” It noted: “Enrollment is limited; preference is given to matriculated students.”

While both the professor and the school have said Mr. Watson could re-enroll in the course if he were willing to take it for credit, they defended the need to restrict the class to Muslims or people who serve the Muslim community.

Stephen McClatchie, the principal of the college, said he regretted that Mr. Watson was allowed to successfully sign up for the course before the requirements were clarified.

“That was clearly something we should have done better. Situations like this arise and it’s an occasion for us to review our auditing policy, which we will certainly be doing coming out of this, as well as our expectations coming out of pastoral colleges,” he said.

Huron College, an affiliate of the University of Western Ontario that started out as an Anglican seminary, offers several practical religious courses aimed at teaching future priests and Christian church leaders rhetorical and preaching skills.

This year, the school created a course aimed at Muslims, devised by Ingrid Mattson, the London and Windsor Community Chair in Islamic Studies, an academic position that focuses on research and teaching relevant to Islamic thought and theology.

She said that as a practical matter, the course is largely graded on a student’s ability to, for example, preach Islamic scripture and deliver an Islamic blessing. The interactive nature of the course makes it difficult for an auditor, she said, but there’s no religious requirement for this class, per se.

“I thought [Mr. Watson] may have been Muslim. I had no idea when he came to class whether he was Muslim or not,” she said.

Mr. Watson said he believes that the prohibition against auditors was put in place to keep non-Muslims like himself out of the class.

“It was the speed at which I was rejected,” he said, noting another auditor was allowed to take the course for credit. “I [received] an email telling me her course was full. … I was never given the option of taking her course for credit.”

If Mr. Watson continued to pursue a spot in the class, Mr. McClatchie said, the school would talk to him about the practical requirements, as it did when other students made similar requests.

A Buddhist student tried to take a course on Christian homiletics a few years ago. After some discussion, it was decided that the student in that case would not be comfortable with some of the requirements.


“We do not feel we have discriminated against him on the basis of religion. Here, we were concerned about the experience of students in what is a practical class and their need to apply leadership skills from a particular perspective,” said Mr. McClatchie.


Yet Mr. Watson believes he is unable to pursue a spot in the course as he doesn’t meet the prerequisites spelled out in the syllabus.

James Turk, the executive director of the Canadian Association of University Teachers, said his group opposes faith tests. The exception, however, is seminaries. It’s reasonable, Mr. Turk said, to require students who are training to be leaders within their religious communities to adhere to those beliefs.

Mr. Watson believes a course on how to preach is better suited for a mosque or community centre than it is for a publicly funded university.

The student believes he should have the right to see what Ms. Mattson is teaching, particularly in light of what he believes is a growing strain of Islamic extremism in the community.

Ms. Mattson encouraged Mr. Watson to take one of her alternative courses on Islam and politics instead.


“I don’t know to what extent he has a genuine interest or to what extent he has an ideological commitment to a certain world view of Muslims,” she said. “There are people who have genuine concerns and there are ways for them to engage in discussions with Muslims, or with me, about these issues. I would think the Islam and politics class would have been much more suited to his interests.”
 
I weep for the land of my birth, and the future of my family members still there.
 
Sorry, folks but Anjem Choudary, the bearded fellow doing all the talking ...

anjem280_754239a.jpg


... is not any more scary than a whole boatload of Christian fanatics preachers screaming talking about the rapture and their God's law and similar shamanistic bullshit ...

Jones-burn-koran_1865132i.jpg


... like this fricking wingnut!

I object to anyone who drives around neighbourood streets spewing drivel with loud hailers, (I object more to the noise than to the drivel ~ if it doesn't intrude on my solitude I don't much care). Other than that I see nothing much wrong with Islamic lunatics, at least not when compared with Christian, Hindu and Buddhist crackpots.
 
Agreed.  The Christian fundimentalists down south the opposite side of the coin from that POS Choudary.  That being said, I would fear either side of them becoming too powerful down the road.  Neither would be good news.
 
jollyjacktar said:
Agreed.  The Christian fundimentalists down south the opposite side of the coin from that POS Choudary.  That being said, I would fear either side of them becoming too powerful down the road.  Neither would be good news.


But my point is that Choudary is to, say, the Aga Khan as Jones is to the Pope. They are all religious leaders but some are pursuing goals that are, broadly, socially acceptable in civilized societies and some are pursuing goals that are unacceptable. Further, the Aga Khan and the Pope are pretty much, mainstream and, largely representative (well not the child abuse) of the majority of the adherents of their respective religions, even though each represents just one sect or denomination within the broader community. Choadary and the hillbilly preachers do not represent anything other than small minorities of Muslims or Christians ... but they are brilliant at garnering media attention and then provoking fear in fora like this.

 
And may they ever remain as small in power and influence as their minds.
 
Christian extremists have been losing ground for 200+ years.  Have Islamic extremists recently been increasing or decreasing their influence?
 
:o Where are the usually vitriolic gender and feminism activists that would speak out against this?

National Post

Islamic women could be denied equal inheritance as Britain recognizes Sharia wills

British law society’s move to allow Islamic ‘Sharia compliant’ wills called ‘deeply disturbing’


LONDON —  Islamic law is to be effectively enshrined in the British legal system for the first time under guidelines for lawyers on drawing up “Sharia compliant” wills.

Under ground-breaking guidance, produced by The Law Society, lawyers will be able to write Islamic wills that deny women an equal share of inheritances and exclude unbelievers altogether.


The documents, which would be recognised by Britain’s courts, will also prevent children born out of wedlock — and even those who have been adopted — from being counted as legitimate heirs.

Anyone married in a church, or in a civil ceremony, could be excluded from succession under Sharia principles, which recognise only Muslim weddings for inheritance purposes.


(...EDITED)
 
Not sure whether to get excited or not about this.

Basically under Common Law you could do whatever you wanted in a will anyway. If you wanted to leave your wife out of the will, then you could and the will would still be valid.

A wife's protection came under what we called Dower legislation. This legislation meant that when a wife was not properly provided for in the will, then she could claim under the Dower Acts for such things as the right to remain in the marital home for her life and also to a certain share of the estate. These laws have been modernized in most Common Law countries so that, for example, the provisions are now in marital property law or family law legislation.

Have tried to see what the new UK laws are and been unable to find any intelligent discussion. If a "shari'a" will, like any other will, is still subject to the ordinary matrimonial, family or dower laws in the UK then there has been a minimal change in the law.

Cheers.

:cheers:
 
Even if it's "voluntary" it's really not. A devout female may be forced to accept a Sharia judgement under the threat of exclusion from her community. Oddly enough Sharia law was the really the first true protection for Arabian women some 1400 years ago and was likely met with a lot of resistance by the tribal customs of the time. Now it is the chain around their neck.
 
Brad Sallows said:
Christian extremists have been losing ground for 200+ years.  Have Islamic extremists recently been increasing or decreasing their influence?

Christian extremists have lost ground in mainstream Western liberal democratic societies in general, but not completely. I would argue that they have remained disproportionately influential in the US (albeit with some geographic variances), and in some pockets in Canada, but with far less influence than the US.

The conditions that produce religious extremism: poverty, ignorance, severe cultural friction, readiness to resort to hatred as a tool, a commonly-held sense of oppression by "others" a tendency to be suspicious or fearful of education, etc have in my opinion always underpinned Christian fundamentalism to a great degree. As these gradually receded over the centuries in our "lucky few" of Western nations, so has fundamentalism. (But again, not completely).

Islamic fundamentalism is in my opinion just as ugly, stupid and dangerous as Christian (or any other...) religious fundamentalism. The difference is that the conditions I identified above are generally much more common throughout the Islamic world (but not universally by any means...). As well, when Islam is the only game in town, and there are no other significant religious, cultural or political influences to keep it between the fences, it has in my opinion an even greater tendency than Christianity to go bad, big time.

This is why I think that in Canada, if we are careful, firm and smart, we will never have to fear Islamic fundamentalism or sharia law except in a very small minority of the population. In other Western countries that don't assimilate as well as we usually (eventually...) do, it is more of a danger. And in Islamic countries, well....
 
All true.  I suppose my question (to which the answer should make the point) is this: how much have Christian extremists scared us into altering our lives and tiptoeing around their sensitivities, and how much have Islamic extremists done so?  That's "influence".
 
Technically Canada has parts of "Sharia Law" implemented into society already as its translation is Islamic Legislation. Muslims in Canada can divorce and create wills that follow the Quran. The UK is moving next to do the same thing.
 
Mac Isaac said:
Technically Canada has parts of "Sharia Law" implemented into society already as its translation is Islamic Legislation. Muslims in Canada can divorce and create wills that follow the Quran. The UK is moving next to do the same thing.

Where in Canada do we have this? I thought it was defeated in Ontario years ago.
 
Brad Sallows said:
All true.  I suppose my question (to which the answer should make the point) is this: how much have Christian extremists scared us into altering our lives and tiptoeing around their sensitivities, and how much have Islamic extremists done so?  That's "influence".

Depends. I'd suggest that in the US, and in certain States in particular, the answer concerning Christians might be "quite a bit". In Canada, I wouldn't say that we tiptoe around Islamic extremists particularly, as much as we may tiptoe around the whole  issue of unacceptable or threatening behaviour by recent arrivals in general.

That could of course change if our demographics were to change significantly without time for assimilation to occur, but I'm not 100% convinced that is really the danger that some people depict it as.
 
pbi said:
Where in Canada do we have this? I thought it was defeated in Ontario years ago.

I've heard of underground courts operating in Hamilton and in a few locations in Scarborough & Mississauga.  Has been a while since I kept up to date on the subject though.  I stopped looking into it after I found out about the blatant hate literature being passed out at a local mosque (Kennedy and Eglington in Scarborough) - was so scathed that was happening so close to my house I had to stop casual research into local extremism in order to maintain comfortable levels of ignorance.  Though the 3 devout Muslims who wouldn't get on the elevator yesterday because I was on there wasn't exactly inspiring of a utopian future. 

That being said I still have hope in humanity ;). Just have to roll my eyes some days. 
 
It's these sort that we have to worry about. By "worry about" I mean make it very clear that their BS is not acceptable and will stop or they will be prosecuted.

The trick is to separate what I believe is the great mass of immigrants who want only to work for a better life, and pursue their respective religions and cultures in non-threatening ways, and those few groups who not only can't adapt, but use their relative freedom in Canada as a base for sh*t disturbing. I don't care if they are Muslims, Palestinians, Serbs, Sri Lankans, IRA or what. Don't bring that sh*t here.
 
pbi said:
It's these sort that we have to worry about. By "worry about" I mean make it very clear that their BS is not acceptable and will stop or they will be prosecuted.

The trick is to separate what I believe is the great mass of immigrants who want only to work for a better life, and pursue their respective religions and cultures in non-threatening ways, and those few groups who not only can't adapt, but use their relative freedom in Canada as a base for **** disturbing. I don't care if they are Muslims, Palestinians, Serbs, Sri Lankans, IRA or what. Don't bring that **** here.

Indeed.  Would be nice if more people were vocal on what's really not cool but considering I live in the mecca of moral relativism (Toronto, or so it feels some days anyway) I won't hold my breath that anyone will speak up against shit disturber until things get pretty ugly (areas of the U.K. are coming to mind but that's not an isolated data point... and heck it may take worse than that bust up the pretty little notion floating around the streets that all ideas are equal.)

Like I sad, can't give up hope.  I'm still happy to live here, just a little less enthusiastic about my chances of not getting injured by a dumbass (I worked at the Toronto stock exchange during the time the'Toronto 18' jihadis were arrested for their plans of a foreworks celebration or two downtown courtesy of ammonium nitrate, and also your preview post reminded me of the kid in highschool shot dead by Tamils gangs because they thought he was someone else... [he wasn't. He was a nerd, a nice kid, and just waiting at a bus stop to go home from his math tutor]. 

Maybe as world literacy rates go up violence will drop... Or maybe more cultures will adopt pre-marital sex / masterbation as an option and ease up on the war mongering lol :)

Back to playing guitar with my head in the clouds for me - 'peace'
 
As far as I know the creator of "Piss Christ" is alive and well and not in any mortal danger.  I haven't seen any of the provocative artists who courageously explore social boundaries explore the boundary of "Piss Mohammed" yet.

People who dislike Christianity, mock it, and push it around in the political and public spaces, apparently do not fear reprisals from its adherents.  But all it takes is a handful of angry protesting Muslims to shut down an exhibit / presentation / lecture / etc - not because anyone is overcome with shame, but because they are overcome with fear.
 
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