George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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X_para76 said:
No. A Cpl could, however, recommend to his CoC that the Pte be charged. Once upon a time a MCpl could charge people, but with the changes in political attitudes that was removed to Snr NCO levels and keeps on getting higher and higher, with fewer and fewer of direct supervisors having the power to charge a subordinate.
Only exceptions would be MP's.
( slower than Eye In The Sky...
)
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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X_para76 said:
In a well oiled, disciplined unit. Yes. All part of the effective operation of the CoC.
Eye In The Sky
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Anyone can make a complaint, thereby instigating a DI (Disciplinary Investigation) if it's warranted based on the initial facts surrounding the incident.
From there, the recommendations of the investigating NCO are presented to the MWO or appointed WO to officially lay the charges.
A DI can be done by MCpl or above, but is usually done by Snr NCOs or WOs.
Regards
From there, the recommendations of the investigating NCO are presented to the MWO or appointed WO to officially lay the charges.
A DI can be done by MCpl or above, but is usually done by Snr NCOs or WOs.
Regards
S
stellarpanther
Guest
Not sure if anyone in my CoC reads this but if they do I'll probably be singled out by this post however, I think it's a legit post so I'll deal with it if required. Yesterday I did mention to one of the MCpl's that I think it is highly inappropriate for a Pte to be talking in a rude manner to a Cpl. This after I asked a Pte a question about a file and got a rude reply. The MCpl advised me that she did sort out the Pte and I believe she did based on the cold shoulder I've received from the Pte. That's fine for now. Today I was told that in the absence of our MCpl for the rest of this week, a no hook QL3 Pte would be in charge because she has more knowledge in that section. When I attempted to speak to the PO about it, I basically got dumped on and told to quit being so hooked on rank and that this was 2014 etc and the person with the most knowledge is put in charge. If that's true, what's the point in having Cpl's? I realize I could go to the WO but that likely not resolve anything and could make it worse. Any ideas from anyone or do I just need to accept the fact that the military isn't what it use to be?
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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ModlrMike said:
Not really. It is called "Delegated Authority".
EXAMPLE:
A Cpl SME is giving a lecture/class to students who are several ranks above them. As the Instructor and SME, they are the Delegated Authority in that classroom.
In the OP's case, it was pointed out that the Pte had more knowledge and was in charge. Again, a case of Delegated Authority. The Pte is the SME.
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George Wallace said:
Lecture/Lesson is one thing, running an OR or something similar for a week, especially if there seems to be very little adherence to the rank structure, seems like a recipe for problems. Although...(and if this sounds like a smart ass response, it is), go to that Pte for every little decision that needs to be made, and I do mean everything. If the PO or Pte, get uppity, simply point out you were following orders as directed.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Being in charge of an OR, or a QM, is not unusual. It is not the norm, but if the most experienced and knowledgeable person is put in charge as Delegated Authority, then that is the way it goes.
Yes. There does seem to be some serious problems in this convoluted story from the OP, and probably some serious problems with their CoC, especially the comments on rank by the PO. It would appear that that work environment is not the healthiest. We, however, are only hearing one side of the story.
Yes. There does seem to be some serious problems in this convoluted story from the OP, and probably some serious problems with their CoC, especially the comments on rank by the PO. It would appear that that work environment is not the healthiest. We, however, are only hearing one side of the story.
S
stellarpanther
Guest
George Wallace said:
I realize it's only one side of the storey however, I can't think of a way to be clearer without naming the unit and I don't want to do that because this isn't about bad mouthing the unit. from what I've been told by a previous Sgt that just left that unit last year. This lack of respect shown to Cpl by Pte's has been happening a long time because they are treated as equals by the CoC. According to him this is why he talked is way out of that unit and quit shortly after.
If it's ok for a Pte to be put in charge of Cpl's simply because they have more knowledge within that particular unit, then why even have rank? I've seen Pte's and Cpl's with more knowledge than a MCpl or Sgt, should they be in charge of them also? My guess is you'll say no and that is part of the problem I have. If there is going ot be no difference between Pte and Cpl, why even have the rank of Cpl?
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I'd like to know the last time the CoC had a bitch session. Sure would be fun to be a fly on the wall there when it happens.
In all seriousness, if you have a gripe about Ptes being in charge, become the SME on your shop and then there is no recourse.
Personally, I ensure that all ranks respect each other and they know the pecking order. As far as I'm concerned, a guy that has two years in doesn't equal a Cpl....unless said Cpl is a mouthbreather.
Regards
In all seriousness, if you have a gripe about Ptes being in charge, become the SME on your shop and then there is no recourse.
Personally, I ensure that all ranks respect each other and they know the pecking order. As far as I'm concerned, a guy that has two years in doesn't equal a Cpl....unless said Cpl is a mouthbreather.
Regards
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George Wallace said:
George- wouldn't this create issues when an investigation happens after an incident when the process of "who is responsible" for the shop starts?
I would expect the axe to fall on the cpl in the shop.
I'm still a little,confused about how a cpl knows less about his job than a private? Perhaps the cpl should have been more aggressive in learning his arcs when coming into the new job.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Container said:
A SME is a SME.
I think what we have here is a large number of inexperienced people all in one section and that workplace is dysfunctional. The more the OP carry's on, the more I get the impression that they are just as much inexperienced as the Pte, or more so.
We don't know what the situation actually is, and the OP is showing more inexperience than experience in the matter. I don't think we will come to any reasonable conclusions here, no matter what scenarios we may present.
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Container said:
It was like this when I got to the recruiting centre. We had two Pte(R)s who got hurt in St. Jean, and were sent to the RC to work while they rehabed. Obviously they knew more than I did when I got there. As well, while one was always used rank and proper military protocol, the other did not. He and I had a chat not to long after I got there.
Eye In The Sky
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Can't agree to this Pte being in charge of Jnr NCOs. If a MCpl delegates their authority in their absence it STILL should be within the rank structure. A Pte can't issue a lawful order to another Pte let alone a JNCO.
The PO saying this is 2014, get over the rank thing? I would love to say that to him/her the next time they told me to do something. Taste of your own medicine.
The PO saying this is 2014, get over the rank thing? I would love to say that to him/her the next time they told me to do something. Taste of your own medicine.
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Eye In The Sky said:
Exactly. The person to whom command is delegated must also have the legal authority to issue orders to those they command. That's why delegation is usually only handed down one rank. It doesn't matter if the Pte is an SME, he/she doesn't have the legal authority to issue commands to NCOs - delegated authority notwithstanding.
Eye In The Sky
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We (the collective *CAF* we) seem to be forgetting much of 'the basics' of our military structure and way of doing our business. All of these 'unofficial policies' do nothing to promote effectiveness and efficiency in our units. Rank structure exits for a reason. There are times when someone of a lower rank may be the lawful authority; example an aircraft captain is in command on the aircraft regardless of superior officers being onboard. However, I think if you read some you'll find these instances are all covered.
Being a "SME" doesn't mean "rank doesn't matter". Think of it; every support arms commander might sit at the Bde Comd/Bn/whatever level O Gp and are SMEs. I am a SME on my gear compared to my ranking officers on any flight. Does that mean I am suddenly immune to the CofC?
When I worked K line hanger spaces, there would usually be a "Floor Cpl" who was responsible for the day to day work we (Cpls and Tprs) did; he reported to the Tp MCpl. I never heard of a Floor Tpr in charge of Cpls.
There are times when mbr's of the same rank are given authority, but this is covered in our Regs. Seniority by appointment, position. In those instances our regs cover it. Sqn 2 I/C is a Capt, one of the Troop Leaders is a Captain. Of course, the 2 I/C has authority over the Troop Leader.
Yup, we are loosing some of the basics in how a military SHOULD operate. More and more people are ignorant of the ACTUAL rules and regs that are supposed to form the foundation of a well-disciplined force and are replacing them with "opinions" and "I thinks".
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-01/chapter-chapitre-003-eng.asp
Being a "SME" doesn't mean "rank doesn't matter". Think of it; every support arms commander might sit at the Bde Comd/Bn/whatever level O Gp and are SMEs. I am a SME on my gear compared to my ranking officers on any flight. Does that mean I am suddenly immune to the CofC?
When I worked K line hanger spaces, there would usually be a "Floor Cpl" who was responsible for the day to day work we (Cpls and Tprs) did; he reported to the Tp MCpl. I never heard of a Floor Tpr in charge of Cpls.
There are times when mbr's of the same rank are given authority, but this is covered in our Regs. Seniority by appointment, position. In those instances our regs cover it. Sqn 2 I/C is a Capt, one of the Troop Leaders is a Captain. Of course, the 2 I/C has authority over the Troop Leader.
Yup, we are loosing some of the basics in how a military SHOULD operate. More and more people are ignorant of the ACTUAL rules and regs that are supposed to form the foundation of a well-disciplined force and are replacing them with "opinions" and "I thinks".
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-01/chapter-chapitre-003-eng.asp
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