Instructors giving students pushups - yay or nay?

[Bzzliteyr]

Okay, here we go.  This question has been asked through the chain of command but I am going to ask it here while waiting for the answer:

What is the Canadian Forces policy on giving a student (subordinate?) pushups?  I have sometimes heard that the instructor must do them with the student and other times, not.

Some people have suggested as punishment you must do them with the student, to that I ask this:  If a mother sends her kid to his/her room, should she also go to her room?  If a police officer arrest someone and jails them, do they go to jail?  Why should the instructor be punished too?

On another note, if I suggest on PT to a student that he/she should be able to do 20 pushups, then I must be able to do them myself or it is unreasonable to ask them to do it.  I understand that side of the argument, but a punishment is a punishment.  If I give a 300 word essay as to why Jewellery is not worn while working on AFV, then should I have to hand one in too??

I don't need anecdotal evidence, I need PROOF, in writing, in a policy, CFAO, etc... that says instructors have to do pushups with students.

I'll be darned if it is WRONG in the army to ask someone to do pushups!!

Comments please

Thank you,
Bzz

 

[Daidalous]

From my experience if the course, section or group of solders  is punished together the instructor does the push ups with them,  but if it is  Pte bloggins"  ah bloggins "  messing up by himslef he is given his own pushups to do.

 

[George Wallace]

I have run into some explanations of it being a "Harassment Thing".  Same as, when conducting a run, you don't have the whole group circle back to pick up stragglers, as it is a form of Harassment.  :

 

[Glorified Ape]

I have run into some explanations of it being a "Harassment Thing".   Same as, when conducting a run, you don't have the whole group circle back to pick up stragglers, as it is a form of Harassment.    :

What? Jeez... then there was a fair amount of harassment going on last summer on course.

I imagine the staff having to do pushups with the recruit/ocdt would stem from the "lead by example" thing, but I could be wrong. I don't see the harm in using push-ups as a punishment - it benefits the punishee doubly by disciplining him/her as well as getting them in better shape.

I swear, by 2010 we'll have the only sanctioned punishment being "mildly unpleasant criticisms" and only then with an apology by the staff afterwards for their having to take corrective action.

 

[ZipperHead]

This is gonna be goooooood!! I can't wait until all the barrack block lawyers get onto this.

I am actually quite curious now on the "legal" aspect of this whole can of worms. I'm sure someone will produce some reference that the "pushups as punishment" can be applied to (or against).

Not that anybody cares, but I don't think push-ups (in and of themselves) are an effective form of punishment (correction is the current PC word, I believe). I like to come up with imaginative punishments that are more insiduous and evil than the mere pressing up and down of one's body weight. But, seeing as they are a time-honoured tradition, who am I to say they shouldn't be handed out. Don't get me wrong, push-ups are an effective form of exercise, but let's say a soldier can do 100 push-ups with little or no problem. Are 50 push-ups then a punishment, or a warm-up. OK, make it 150.... But if you fall into the group of people that can only do, say, 50-60, and agree that the instructor should do them alongside the subordinate, then what??? And if you don't agree with it, what's to stop one from decreeing 500 pushups are the punishment? Again, there are far more effective means of correction. Taking away free time. Cleaning kit that needs to be cleaned, while others are off drinking their faces off. Drill. Cleaning up the base of garbage. Name something constructive, and I will go along with it (not that PT isn't constructive, but that's where it should stay.... in a PT period).

Anyway, had to say my bit, but again, I am curious where the "law" is on all of this (if anybody can be arsed to actually look it up).

AL

 

[ZipperHead]

Because I have to raise my post count (as that is what REALLY matters around here), here is a story about corporate policies that might amuse some....

Experiment
Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, hang a banana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the other monkeys with cold water. After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with the same result, and all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon the monkeys will try to prevent it.

Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.

Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm! Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, then the fifth.

Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is attacked. Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey. After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Why not? Because as far as they know that's the way it's always been done around here.

And that, my friends, is how a company policy begins.

Al

 

[Michael OLeary]

I would suggest that in the face of a complaint, unless you could clearly show that the assignment of pushups was directly related to correcting the identified training deficiency, then the reference you are looking for is:

103.28 - ABUSE OF SUBORDINATES

(1) Section 95 of the National Defence Act provides:

"95. Every person who strikes or otherwise ill-treats any person who by reason of rank or appointment is subordinate to him is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to imprisonment for less than two years or to less punishment. "

You would be hard-pressed to justify to the delegated officer that your time and attention might not have been better spent focussed on what the soldier was actually doing wrong. Training, rather than punishing. If it requires more stringent action, better to use your own extra energy to draft a clearly worded "red chit", so that when the file does land in front of the Commanding Officer, there's something in there that justifies your claims of unsuitability for military service. A soldier who understands your willingness to help through attention to extra training will be much more likely to ask for it in the first place, and much more likely to do his/her best to measure up in other ways to avoid your disapproval. 


And just out of curiosity: since you asked the chain of command, what answer did you get?

 

[medicineman]

      This could be just the fact I finnished the Mil Law OPME or something, but last I heard, only a delegated officer can give out a punishment.  Giving out pushups is a form of "corrective training", which, if I'm not mistaken, a supervisor can dish out (within reason of course).  As for circling back for a slower runner, I'd have a hard time as a Harrassment Investigator to find harrassment there, unless something was said or done that violates the Charter crash landings.  The idea of teamwork I think has been lost on alot of recruits these days IMO...

MM

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
The idea of teamwork I think has been lost on alot of recruits these days IMO...


....but who's fault is that, certainly not thiers....whine in, whine out.

 

[GO!!!]

I have run into some explanations of it being a "Harassment Thing".   Same as, when conducting a run, you don't have the whole group circle back to pick up stragglers, as it is a form of Harassment.    :

I'm calling 3VP CO, the company commanders have been harassing the troops for years! What is the statute of limitations on that, I want to see every Major and Pl Comd doing the hatless dance! Written apologies to every man in the coy!  

Why do I think I would be laughed out of my unit for bringing this particular form of "harassment" up? I can't even write it with a straight face!  

Has this ever really happened?

Also, considering that the PIs in Trenton hand out pushups like Halloween candy, and they dont' do anything but "encourage you" to correct your deficiencies between "begin" and "recover" so I can't see there being a policy against it. They are pretty by the book out there.

 

[Infanteer]

If Pushups form one test of the Express Test, then how can assigning them be considered abuse of a subordinate?  Is it not a task that a CF solder can be expected to perform (by day or by night, regardless of weather or terrain....)

 

[medicineman]

"....but who's fault is that, certainly not thiers....whine in, whine out"

True, no bad students, just bad teachers.  Though, despite that, there are still alot out there that seem to find an "I" in TEAM.  Maybe they're thinking of the word "Item"...

MM

 

[DVessey]

Not sure which way this is going to go, but instructors first have to be able to do push ups themselves. One past instructor of mine tried doing push ups with our platoon during morning PT. It was very hard for the platoon to keep a straight face, as this DS had his arse way up in the air, completely improper position.

 

[Michael OLeary]

If Pushups form one test of the Express Test, then how can assigning them be considered abuse of a subordinate?  Is it not a task that a CF solder can be expected to perform (by day or by night, regardless of weather or terrain....)

Yes it is, as part of his physical fitness expectations, in concert with that of all of his/her peers.

But not because he salutes poorly, or because he forgets the sequence the unload after one instructional period, or because his bed isn't quite perfect .......


But, if you insist, perhaps they can also be assigned to NCO instructors for poorly written weekly asessments. Hmmm .......

 

[Lost_Warrior]

  I have sometimes heard that the instructor must do them with the student and other times, not.

On courses I have been on, that policy has it's loop holes.  On many occasions, we were made to hit the push up position and hold it, and do push ups in between. 

When one instructor got tired (although they would never admit it) another one would get down and replace him/her and continue the punishment with us.

I have also seen an instructor hover over a recruit and make him do 50 push ups in a row (even though I believe they are only supposed to make us do 25 "at a time") and stand there with a smile on his face as the recruit struggled.  I kind of felt sorry for him.  He didn't really do much to deserve it either...

Same as, when conducting a run, you don't have the whole group circle back to pick up stragglers, as it is a form of Harassment.

I don't think I was ever on a course where we didn't do that...

I guess it all depends on your instructors. 

I have been fortunate enough to have tough, fair instructors.  It makes good soldiers.  I have seen other courses where the instructors baby their candidates.  All that does it creates whiners when the guy/girl has to sleep out in the rain or cold, or get a little physical in their task. 

 

[DVessey]

Oh, and if instructors really want to correct physical fitness deficiences, get the subordinate doing CrossFit (http://www.crossfit.com)

 

[paracowboy]

having seen the results of the "Geddown and gimme 50!" Army, and the "Here is your red chit, please read. Any questions? Sign here." Army, I vastly prefer the former.
Words on paper have no impact on a young troop. Physical punishment (not corrective training - punishment) does. Further, it promotes an attitude of "He ain't gonna break me." and develops a stronger troop. After a while, it becomes a fun game. For both parties. Especially when the PL WO is involved and does them, too.

Write me up all you want, it means nothing. If words on paper meant something, the PDR/PER system wouldn't be the bloody abortion it is.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Para,
100 % correct, I remember many a run up and down "zipperhead" hill in Pet with the towing eye from the L-5 in my hands, right MrGnr27, ;D and  it did exactly what you stated above.

 

[Gayson]

I suppose the push-up rule is to prevent instructors from giving out rediculous amounts of push-ups that no recruit could do.  PT as a punishment works, to an extent.  I believe that making a recruit suffer through 200 push-ups will have no more of an effect doing 50.  Also, when the instructors do it with the troops it leads by example.  It shows the troops a level of fitness they can expire to.  Also I would say that having the instructor do the punishment with you has a greater effect, not only do you get the "punishment", but also you are left with no doubt in your mind that the punishment was to great as the instructor went through it with you.

Frankly, I believe PT as a punishment is a good thing.  I firmly believe that any punishment handed out to recruits should be constructive and make them better soldiers.  This is why i hate show parading so much, what does a soldier learn from pointless cock as they get in and out of uniform a lot of times.

On my last course, DP2, we were NEVER show paraded.  Instead as a punishment we got to do TONS and TONS of NBC drills.  Everything from suiting up, to running with the kit on, to working on other drills with the kit on.  It sucked, we learned from our punishments, and now I find the NBC gear a lot easier to operate in.

I'm not PLQ qualified and I have never taught so I don't assume to be an expert on the matter.  When I do teach one day I would like to refrain from show parading candidates.  Instead I would "correct" troops with PT r punishments that have something to do with their failings.

Failed inspections = More inspections by me on their spare time.
Missing Timings = practice stripping weapons or peforming MEANINGFUL tasks (not show parades) under pressure.
Poor academics = more practice on the subject matter
Low fitness = PT sessions before and after classes.

Anyways, back on subject of push-ups.

 

[paracowboy]

It shows the troops a level of fitness they can expire to.  

Freudian slip?