Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[KevinB]

The contract is just as weird as the vehicle as we the CAF own none of the spare parts (less batteries, tires and filters IIRC) until it is issued to a work order. We set it up separately in our system and it uses Textron part numbers vice NSNs. There may be vehicle specific parts for Cdn variants vs other users so both points might be valid.

It does make parts availability challenging at times as they are only supposed to be held at 2nd/3rd line. Any part needed that isn't held in stock is either on a 7 (critical parts) or 30 day schedule (non-critical) once ordered to go from the OEM to the depot(s). Add in the time needed at 3rd/2nd line for processing and shipment to get the to the end units on top of that and it can make parts an issue for sure.

The upside is we don't have to create a contract every time we need new parts.

I would have assumed (apparently incorrectly) that the CAF would have multi-year BPA's in place with any OEM, that would allow ordering of replacement parts without necessitating a new contract.
Generally everything down here like that is either on 5 Year IDIQ Contracts, or 3-5 year Blanket Purchase Agreements.

 

[MJP]

BPA's

We don't term it the same but there is a similar mechanism(s) that exists as well for many contracts.

I was more referring to the fact when you have exhausted all contract options and need to get more parts or R&O services via a new contract.

 

[KevinB]

We don't term it the same but there is a similar mechanism(s) that exists as well for many contracts.

I was more referring to the fact when you have exhausted all contract options and need to get more parts or R&O services via a new contract.

Clear answer to that is do what most entities down here do.
Look what you bought the last five years, then ceiling the BPA for 10x of that

 

[Eaglelord17]

That's where I think we've lost our sense of initiative as Canadians. We accept the kit they give us and generally don't muck around with it.

If you get a piece of gear that's a pig at what it was supposed to do then you start experimenting to find something that it's useful for. I still wonder who thought that a 9 foot vehicle with a tire and a crane on top would make a good reconnaissance vehicle ... or any other functions that the project description set as objectives.





Maybe. I'm one of them Missouri "show me" folks. I see four wheels, an engine and a cab with everything else negotiable to a cutting torch and a modicum of engineering.

My guess is that notwithstanding the criticism of this vehicle on web forums like this one, the folks that run the Army still think that there is value in the vehicle as is and aren't about to put any effort into modifications for specialty uses.

They won’t let us take a wire brush to rust and throw some flat green paint on the spot afterwards because of ‘warranty’. Good luck convincing them that we should modify the vehicles.

 

[FJAG]

I’m probably just off on my information. I know we had some unit specific grounds after a couple safety instances and I just took word of mouth reference it being fleet wide. Double check my info and it’s online with no fleet wide grounding. My mistakes. @FJAG im wrong in short.

No sweat.

I've got slightly more interest in this vehicle than usual as the guy who was my best man at my wedding, way back in the day, worked for Textron as a senior executive during this contract. So far I've avoided calling him up on this, but at times I'm tempted.

 

[childs56]

I wonder how many parts for the vehicles in question can a person go to the local heavy duty parts store and order for either pickup right away or a couple days out. The same for the electronic stuff go to a special contractor and find the same part and order up.
Lots of our supply issues are due to our vendor contracts and not actual availability of parts.
They grounded the fleet of MLVWs a few times due to the suspension walking off, not enough or no spare parts. Yet any heavy duty shop could have ordered parts to fix, replace overhaul. Any Heavy Duty Suspension shop could have fixed the issue. The brakes on the MLVW could be problematic for failure of the air over hydraulic, again easily fixed but not allowed to be fixed using commercial parts.

Fix the tendering ordering problem set a deal with a Nation wide large parts supplier and get rid of the crap in the middle and kickbacks. Problems will slowly go away.

 

[WestIsle]

Wayback Machine

While old, the attached force structure for the Australian Army in 2015 flys in the face of a pretty admin heavy Canadian Army and military.

 

[FJAG]

Wayback Machine

While old, the attached force structure for the Australian Army in 2015 flys in the face of a pretty admin heavy Canadian Army and military.

Frankly I don't see that much difference.

Sure there are differences in that the Army there is a service unlike in Canada where it slots into a unified system. And there are useful elements like an aviation brigade, a health brigade and a Service Support (now Sustainment) brigade which which our Army doesn't have because of the air force and purple organization that holds those. In the end, the Aussies structurally have 3 (4 kind of) RegF brigade groups with all the gear and 6 understrength and underarmed ResF brigades. Like us their RegF brigade groups are multifunction organizations that mix light and mechanized forces and are seriously underequipped with artillery.

The organization has changed since the 2015 plan. You can find it here.

Don't forget that there is also an overarching Australian Defence Forces administrative headquarters structure and that while their numbers are close to ours, their defence budget, at around CAD45 billion (1.96% of GDP), is significantly larger than ours. I keep saying that Canada isn't getting value for money but I think the Australian Army currently delivers less bang for buck.

What they do have that Canada doesn't, is a plan to improve their army and cure many of their deficiencies. And, they have a communication plan that let's people know where they are going.

 

[Ostrozac]

I keep saying that Canada isn't getting value for money but I think the Australian Army currently delivers less bang for buck.

The Australian Army, maybe, but the Australian Army is their lowest-priority service, and has been for decades. Both the RAAF and the RAN field high-end capabilities that really push Australia to the next level, given their relatively small population.

 

[Prairie canuck]

We already have uses for all of our LAVs. We have TAPVs just hanging around looking for a job.

In a perfect world I'd see LAVs too, if for no other reason than room for more reloads.

What FJAG said...

 

[KevinB]

What they do have that Canada doesn't, is a plan to improve their army and cure many of their deficiencies. And, they have a communication plan that let's people know where they are going.

Imagine a plan

 

[markppcli]

No sweat.

I've got slightly more interest in this vehicle than usual as the guy who was my best man at my wedding, way back in the day, worked for Textron as a senior executive during this contract. So far I've avoided calling him up on this, but at times I'm tempted.

so an update for you: they are not grounded, but were previously grounded fleet wide for an issue with steering bolts and previously it was their ABS. Both requiring service no parts.

 

[daftandbarmy]

No sweat.

I've got slightly more interest in this vehicle than usual as the guy who was my best man at my wedding, way back in the day, worked for Textron as a senior executive during this contract. So far I've avoided calling him up on this, but at times I'm tempted.

 

[markppcli]

No sweat.

I've got slightly more interest in this vehicle than usual as the guy who was my best man at my wedding, way back in the day, worked for Textron as a senior executive during this contract. So far I've avoided calling him up on this, but at times I'm tempted.

This is the exact character of friend I’d expect from a lawyer…

 

[childs56]

so an update for you: they are not grounded, but were previously grounded fleet wide for an issue with steering bolts and previously it was their ABS. Both requiring service no parts.

I wonder if a person went to the local heavy duty parts store if they could have sourced those parts themselves.

 

[markppcli]

I wonder if a person went to the local heavy duty parts store if they could have sourced those parts themselves.

Is Textron big in civilian trucks ? They seem to produce lots of niche things. Regardless the civilian sourcing is an okay solution in Canada but we need robust, deployable servicing.

My understanding was it was more of a servicing issue. Honestly I probably spoke out of my depth. When it’s a fleet wide grounding usually it’s a fault in a given system that has been diagnosed and it needs servicing / adjustment writ large vs a park shortage. I probably have a wrong impression as to why they’re shop queens.

 

[childs56]

Is Textron big in civilian trucks ? They seem to produce lots of niche things. Regardless the civilian sourcing is an okay solution in Canada but we need robust, deployable servicing.

My understanding was it was more of a servicing issue. Honestly I probably spoke out of my depth. When it’s a fleet wide grounding usually it’s a fault in a given system that has been diagnosed and it needs servicing / adjustment writ large vs a park shortage. I probably have a wrong impression as to why they’re shop queens.

Independent suspension is not popular in the civilian industry, but the supplier network is there already across Canada and some parts of world for that part.
I see no reason why we have to order xyz parts from a sole supplier who cannot supply the required parts in a timely manner. When we can go to the local parts supply company and find a solution to our requirements, find lead times and produce the order.
For example Hendrickson has shops across the country and access around the world. If our supplier/ warehouse does not have the part in stock then we should be able to head to local Fort Garry Ind, Fleet Brake, etc We should always have stock of wear components in our physical inventory. Work with theses suppliers directly when required. There is little chance they will say no to a credit card paying $50 in parts let alone$10,000 or more in parts.
I look at the LSVW, we had problems with their heater, yet private industry used a same or similar heater and had no where near the problems. But they went to local shop to get parts and or service.

It seems simple solution to me, but obviously it is much more difficult to do in practice for the government to do.

 

[KevinB]

Independent suspension is not popular in the civilian industry, but the supplier network is there already across Canada and some parts of world for that part.
I see no reason why we have to order xyz parts from a sole supplier who cannot supply the required parts in a timely manner. When we can go to the local parts supply company and find a solution to our requirements, find lead times and produce the order.
For example Hendrickson has shops across the country and access around the world. If our supplier/ warehouse does not have the part in stock then we should be able to head to local Fort Garry Ind, Fleet Brake, etc We should always have stock of wear components in our physical inventory. Work with theses suppliers directly when required. There is little chance they will say no to a credit card paying $50 in parts let alone$10,000 or more in parts.
I look at the LSVW, we had problems with their heater, yet private industry used a same or similar heater and had no where near the problems. But they went to local shop to get parts and or service.

It seems simple solution to me, but obviously it is much more difficult to do in practice for the government to do.

That would be a domestic bandaid, not an actual solution.
Furthermore, who’s going to guarantee that a commercially sourced part is compatible, and who pays the piper when it fails?

 

[Spencer100]

That would be a domestic bandaid, not an actual solution.
Furthermore, who’s going to guarantee that a commercially sourced part is compatible, and who pays the piper when it fails?

Plus Canada doesn't buy the IP rights to the machine. You just can't slap a XYZ company shock on the machine. If the contract has a ABC company one.

Modern life many things can no longer be repaired but at the correct place. And its going to get very much worse. As move into LaaS eveything will be locked down.

Crazy idea I could see more equipment just be pay for service or effect. We have things like that now the MV Asterix. RR power by the hour. And training planes.

BAE, Airbus, Boeing I need a MPA will do the list of requirements with a 99 percent availability and must cover this area of the country and seas. I'll pay per hour. You worry about the size of the fleet and keeping it working. I just need this capability ready at this time. You write the damage clause and wear and tare.

 

[childs56]

That would be a domestic bandaid, not an actual solution.
Furthermore, who’s going to guarantee that a commercially sourced part is compatible, and who pays the piper when it fails?

The suspension on the TAPV is commercially available although limited in supply. Many HD Parts suppliers can source those parts through their suppliers. There are suspension companies domestically who can source, build and manufacture required parts.
Tail light warranty seems to be the thing of the day. Parts suppliers usually provide manufactures warranty. It would be interesting to see why we actually have a parts shortage. Is it actually lack of parts, lack of ordered parts or sole source contract and not willing to go outside of that to meet requirements.